Help with advice on a hunting rifle cartridge
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jpwilly
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I respectfully disagree, $4 more for a box of ammo isn't going to stop a man from purchasing the most versatile hunting cartridge in North America. A "man of limited means" is going to sight the rifle in 3-5 shots and kill 1 deer a year for next 15years with the rest of the shells. If that "man of limited means" is able to do some side work (wash cars, mow grass, help and old lady out) than it isn't going to matter either.
Yeah for the Ought 6 way better than the 30-30! YMMV Flame suit on!
Maverick223
Member
I realize that you posted some qualifications, but I still want a few answers...most importantly what is the relative area (Pacific NW or SE USA)? Do you intend to travel to hunt? Budget (less than $200 or sub $2k)? Define "bad" recoil (What have you shot and found to be excessive? .30-30 or .460WM?). Do you plan to target shoot or will the firearm solely be used for hunting? These questions will greatly change the results to the question. 
BornAgainBullseye
Member
scan the used rack at the local shops and pawn shops. DO NOT GET A REMINGTON 710 !!! You should be able to pick up a quality bolt gun for under $350. I would be on the lookout for a .270 win. Here in rural southwest Georgia there is .270 in most gas stations. However if you really cant handle a .270 I would not pass up a .243 . There is a Winchester model 70 push feed in .270 with a fancy walnut stock and a Tasco 3x9 pre china scope at the local pawn shop for $365 and it has been there for 6 months. Cash talks when dealing with pawn shops. Look at it pull out the bolt and look at the bore before buying it. Ask if you can have it checked out if you dont know what you are looking for. If he says "NO" walk away. If he counter offers and says that he will buy it back if it is a lemon then consider it a deal.
scythefwd
Member
ed1,
The .30-30 is nowhere near the 06 in power. The .30-30 launches a 170 grain bullet at approximately 2300 fps (2330 fps max load) where your 06 is doing the same pill at approx. 2800 (2794 fps max load). That is a power difference of 898 ft-lbs right there.
At what energies and at what distances do you draw the line for an full power cartridge?
Just remember, you can always buy reduced recoil rounds for the -06 that will be about the same power level as the .30-30 but you can't buy .30-30 magnum rounds that will touch an -06.
The .30-30 is nowhere near the 06 in power. The .30-30 launches a 170 grain bullet at approximately 2300 fps (2330 fps max load) where your 06 is doing the same pill at approx. 2800 (2794 fps max load). That is a power difference of 898 ft-lbs right there.
At what energies and at what distances do you draw the line for an full power cartridge?
Just remember, you can always buy reduced recoil rounds for the -06 that will be about the same power level as the .30-30 but you can't buy .30-30 magnum rounds that will touch an -06.
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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Got it figured out. The answer is undoubtedly .300 Remington Ultra Magnum, Ackley Improved. Without any doubt. Many many people have correctly pointed out how much more powerful the .30-06 is than the .30-30 winchester, nevermind that that extra power is not needed in any way shape or form for 90-95% of hunting. The .300 RUM is far far more powerful than the .30-06, so clearly it must be better still. Who are these silly people touting the .30-06 when every single reloading manual I have shows the .300 RUM to be far far more powerful than the .30-06. You're not as silly as me for suggeting .30-30 earlier, but silly nevertheless.
Maverick223
Member
That's crazy talk...the .300 Hulk (a .308 in a necked down 50BMG IIRC) or bust.
So instead of spending most of your post restating the OP's criteria to fit your preferred conclusion (30-30), you've now decided to ignore them completely. I suspect that a 300RUMAI would not meet the OPs criteria of affordable, available ammo and rifles, not to mention recoil
. I realize you are exaggerating for effect, but while the 30-30 was at one time considered a powerful, flat shooting marvel, that era lasted only 12 years - until the introduction of the 30-06. The 30-30 is adequate for 90% of hunting as long as you stick to deer under 150 yards. But the OP wants a gun for 90% of ALL hunting, which includes larger game and longer ranges.
Given the OP's criteria as HE wrote them, the 30-06 is a far better choice.
scythefwd
Member
Tad,
I did point out the 30-06 was the better choice. It has never been out of stock around here, the rifles can be had for less than 400, and you can buy managed recoil rounds that will take it down to the .30-30. If you are hunting in some open place like NE, then a 400 y shot isn't unheard of. I wouldn't trust a .30-30 at that distance. I was being facetious when I said the 7.62x54R. It will work, but there are better suited choices. I, for one, find the 30-06 comfortable to shoot.
On the other hand, the .30-30 meets all the requirements technically. I wouldn't bet on it to make a clean and humane kill at 300y. I have yet to see a 1.5 moa .30-30 yet. The best I have seen is a 1.75 moa, which translates to a 4.5 inch group at 300y with no wind. At the relatively slow speed it is moving, there is potential for a lot of drift. I usually get my boxes a lot cheaper than quoted here though. The argument that the .30-30 has taken every game on the NA continent is moot. So has just about every round mentioned. I wouldn't want to hunt game that hunts back with it. I have yet to spend 10 dollars on a box of 20. While the .30-30 works well in the areas I hunt in, I am under no illusions that my .30-30 will do anything that my .308 won't do just as well. I feel the same way about the .30-06.
I did point out the 30-06 was the better choice. It has never been out of stock around here, the rifles can be had for less than 400, and you can buy managed recoil rounds that will take it down to the .30-30. If you are hunting in some open place like NE, then a 400 y shot isn't unheard of. I wouldn't trust a .30-30 at that distance. I was being facetious when I said the 7.62x54R. It will work, but there are better suited choices. I, for one, find the 30-06 comfortable to shoot.
On the other hand, the .30-30 meets all the requirements technically. I wouldn't bet on it to make a clean and humane kill at 300y. I have yet to see a 1.5 moa .30-30 yet. The best I have seen is a 1.75 moa, which translates to a 4.5 inch group at 300y with no wind. At the relatively slow speed it is moving, there is potential for a lot of drift. I usually get my boxes a lot cheaper than quoted here though. The argument that the .30-30 has taken every game on the NA continent is moot. So has just about every round mentioned. I wouldn't want to hunt game that hunts back with it. I have yet to spend 10 dollars on a box of 20. While the .30-30 works well in the areas I hunt in, I am under no illusions that my .30-30 will do anything that my .308 won't do just as well. I feel the same way about the .30-06.
TX Hog Hunter
Member
My Ruger m77 Hawkeye stainless with brown laminated stock in .30-06 will handle 99% of my N American hunting needs.
You can buy .30-06 ammo virtually anywhere ammo is sold and can usually be found reasonably priced. There is a tremendous selection of ammo available for it for everything from varmints to very big game.
The Ruger 77 is one of (if not THE toughest) the most rugged and reliable hunting rifles available. It has what I consider the safest of safeties and normally shoot very well. They come with a set of high quality scope rings which attach directly to the receiver so you don't have the added expense of buying rings and bases.
Mount a Bushnell 3200 or 4200 Elite or a Leupold VX II on it any you are set..........
You can buy .30-06 ammo virtually anywhere ammo is sold and can usually be found reasonably priced. There is a tremendous selection of ammo available for it for everything from varmints to very big game.
The Ruger 77 is one of (if not THE toughest) the most rugged and reliable hunting rifles available. It has what I consider the safest of safeties and normally shoot very well. They come with a set of high quality scope rings which attach directly to the receiver so you don't have the added expense of buying rings and bases.
Mount a Bushnell 3200 or 4200 Elite or a Leupold VX II on it any you are set..........
Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow
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natman, sorry, but you could not possibly be more wrong.
Yeah, just like you did when you recommended .30-06.
Wow, gee, ya think? Kinda like one OTHER recommendation from SOME people.
Ummm, yeah.
And yet every year up to and including 2009 - over 100 years later, truckloads upon truckloads of leverguns in .30-30 are sold and used to good effect.
You're making me laugh hard man. Under 150 yes, I agree with that. Guess what. The vast majority of hunting is done under 100 yards, let alone 150. But all give you that. As for deer sized game, wrong! You're just way off base there. Ask caribou, who just explained today that natives who hunt HUGE game in Alaska consider the .243 to be an excellent choice. The .30-30 will kill anything on the continent, any day, all day long. Easily. With power to spare. At appropriate ranges. Does anyone on this board have more hunting experience than caribou? I think not.
No he doesn't; you are wrong; he said:
It is you who is not reading the criteria carefully. He didn't say ALL hunting, to imply long range hunting, as you are trying to impute to him. He said 90% of the game in North America. As it turns out, the .30-30 is appropriate for around 95% of the game in North America, counting species, and 99.99% of game in North American, counting actual heads of game running around.
Again, he didn't say longer ranges, and it's fine for moose or any large game you can think of, except perhaps grizzly or polar bears.
No, it's not. It's a good choice, which is why it was #3 on my list. But it's a LOT more recoil, and a fair amount more expense, both of which fly in the face of his most important two criteria.
Yeah, just like you did when you recommended .30-06.
Wow, gee, ya think? Kinda like one OTHER recommendation from SOME people.
Ummm, yeah.
And yet every year up to and including 2009 - over 100 years later, truckloads upon truckloads of leverguns in .30-30 are sold and used to good effect.
You're making me laugh hard man. Under 150 yes, I agree with that. Guess what. The vast majority of hunting is done under 100 yards, let alone 150. But all give you that. As for deer sized game, wrong! You're just way off base there. Ask caribou, who just explained today that natives who hunt HUGE game in Alaska consider the .243 to be an excellent choice. The .30-30 will kill anything on the continent, any day, all day long. Easily. With power to spare. At appropriate ranges. Does anyone on this board have more hunting experience than caribou? I think not.
No he doesn't; you are wrong; he said:
It is you who is not reading the criteria carefully. He didn't say ALL hunting, to imply long range hunting, as you are trying to impute to him. He said 90% of the game in North America. As it turns out, the .30-30 is appropriate for around 95% of the game in North America, counting species, and 99.99% of game in North American, counting actual heads of game running around.
Again, he didn't say longer ranges, and it's fine for moose or any large game you can think of, except perhaps grizzly or polar bears.
No, it's not. It's a good choice, which is why it was #3 on my list. But it's a LOT more recoil, and a fair amount more expense, both of which fly in the face of his most important two criteria.
Maverick223
Member
I agree with you Doc, but it appears that the OP has abandoned ship, and without answers to a few basic questions (by him and only him), that I have asked twice...there is no clear cut answer. Until the OP returns and answers a few questions...see ya on the flip side.
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Sorry for the absence.I realize that you posted some qualifications, but I still want a few answers...most importantly what is the relative area (Pacific NW or SE USA)? Do you intend to travel to hunt? Budget (less than $200 or sub $2k)? Define "bad" recoil (What have you shot and found to be excessive? .30-30 or .460WM?). Do you plan to target shoot or will the firearm solely be used for hunting? These questions will greatly change the results to the question.
I'm a newbie so this is my first hunting rifle, so I don't ahve any experience to base relative recoil. In my home state of Ohio we need to use a shotgun, but i just wanted a good all purpose hunting rifle in case the opportunity presented itself. For now I will be using it mostly for target. My budget for a rifle would be not much over $500.
Maverick223
Member
Thanks for the reply...it tells me a great deal about your needs. First I think you need to establish a baseline as far as recoil tolerance. Have you fired a shotgun before...if so of what gauge? If you have fired a 12Ga with a hunting load and not found it to be too severe of recoil then I would go with a .30-06. There are some pretty large deer in Ohio, that is not to say that a .30-30 couldn't get the job done, but shot placement will be less critical, and there is a comfortable range advantage if you can handle the .30-06.
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Art Eatman
Moderator In Memoriam
Welcome back. Coming late to the party, lemme say that after almost sixty years, I'm sorta partial to the old '06. But I've been equally satisfied with my .243, so go figure. And most anything in between will do in the lower 48, if the shooter knows what he's doing.
Bits & Pieces: Don't be in a hurry. Money goes out a lot faster than it comes in. Good used rifles generally shoot as well as brand new rifles. Good used reloading equipment works just as well as brand new stuff, generally; I even have some old pre-WW II stuff that still works just fine--and if you learn to reload, the cost per shot is way, way lower.
The '06 has always been noted for wide-ranging versatility. For a reloader, it's as close to a do-all as ever could be. From squirrels to meese.
Coming late to the party, lemme say that after almost sixty years, I'm sorta partial to the old '06. But I've been equally satisfied with my .243, so go figure. And most anything in between will do in the lower 48, if the shooter knows what he's doing.Bits & Pieces: Don't be in a hurry. Money goes out a lot faster than it comes in. Good used rifles generally shoot as well as brand new rifles. Good used reloading equipment works just as well as brand new stuff, generally; I even have some old pre-WW II stuff that still works just fine--and if you learn to reload, the cost per shot is way, way lower.
The '06 has always been noted for wide-ranging versatility. For a reloader, it's as close to a do-all as ever could be. From squirrels to meese.
The rest of your post is repeation, but this point deserves addressing. Natives who hunt in Alaska work under very different conditions than most of us. For one thing they live where they hunt. They know where the animals are, they can sometimes hunt without regard to seasons all year every year.
I am going to hazard a guess that the OP is not an Alaskan native. That means he has to hunt in rifle season, which often is not the easiest time of year. He may just get a week or so to hunt somewhere he has never been before. There will probably be a lot of other hunters so the game is spooked. This means he may have to shoot at animals that are a bit out of the 30-30's range.
I've already given examples, so I won't repeat myself.
Look, I like the 30-30. It's a very useful cartridge within it's limits and it's chambered in some nice light lever actions. It's so important in American hunting history that I think everyone should own at least one and know what it can do. Just as importantly, you should know what it can't do.
As much as I enjoy my 30-30, if I was going to have ONE rifle it would be a 30-06. Oh and yes, they sell an awful lot of them too.
Well I think we've made our points and I don't see anything to be gained by going around this merry-go-round again. Bye, nice chatting with you.
federalfarmer
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Try a .270 Win. Easy on the shoulder, wally-world has ammo,used guns for $400, and it kills at 1 yard and 500.
Oh, and some writers in the past have encouraged there use!
Oh, and some writers in the past have encouraged there use!
UniversalFrost
Member
I have already made my post for 30/06,
But i want to say that I totally agree with Art (just like I usually do over on TFL) that .243 is a very good choice as well and my first deer rifle is chambered in .243 and has killed several 220 to 235lb muleys out to 328 yds (as paced off later) in south dakota and north dakota.
If I had to do it all over again I would opt for a .243 to start out young or for a recoil sensitive shooter. Then move up to a 30/06 and load it light or get some of the managed recoil factory stuff. Once you can handle the recoil or buy a limbsaver pad and maybe a recoil reducer and that will help.
One one of my S&W i-bolts in 30/06 I added a limbsave pad and the S&W mercury filled recoil reducer that is specifically made for this stock (stock already has a hollow portion for a recoil reducer). I did these additions to drastically reduce recoil on normal 30/06 loads for the times my wife shoots the gun and to help me when I am shooting some of my super hot 220 gr loads that I worked up for a moose hunt.
The .270 is also a good round, but limited to deer and small elk. i wouldn't use it for anything larger than cow elk. it is too fast and bullet combos are picky in most of the .270's i have owned and performance was nor worth wasting my time or effort on it when I had a 30/06 and a .243.
I do own a .270 now (tikka t3 lite), and have owned several .270's in the past, but none were my first choice come opening day of deer or elk season. I will always reach for a 30/06 or .243 (for deer) and the 30/06 for elk ( along with moose). I do have other calibers in between and beyond the scope of .243 or 30/06 but those two are the only ones you need other than a .22 and a 12 or 20ga.
JOE
But i want to say that I totally agree with Art (just like I usually do over on TFL) that .243 is a very good choice as well and my first deer rifle is chambered in .243 and has killed several 220 to 235lb muleys out to 328 yds (as paced off later) in south dakota and north dakota.
If I had to do it all over again I would opt for a .243 to start out young or for a recoil sensitive shooter. Then move up to a 30/06 and load it light or get some of the managed recoil factory stuff. Once you can handle the recoil or buy a limbsaver pad and maybe a recoil reducer and that will help.
One one of my S&W i-bolts in 30/06 I added a limbsave pad and the S&W mercury filled recoil reducer that is specifically made for this stock (stock already has a hollow portion for a recoil reducer). I did these additions to drastically reduce recoil on normal 30/06 loads for the times my wife shoots the gun and to help me when I am shooting some of my super hot 220 gr loads that I worked up for a moose hunt.
The .270 is also a good round, but limited to deer and small elk. i wouldn't use it for anything larger than cow elk. it is too fast and bullet combos are picky in most of the .270's i have owned and performance was nor worth wasting my time or effort on it when I had a 30/06 and a .243.
I do own a .270 now (tikka t3 lite), and have owned several .270's in the past, but none were my first choice come opening day of deer or elk season. I will always reach for a 30/06 or .243 (for deer) and the 30/06 for elk ( along with moose). I do have other calibers in between and beyond the scope of .243 or 30/06 but those two are the only ones you need other than a .22 and a 12 or 20ga.
JOE
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