Helping value old SAA

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You could ask on the Colt Forum, as there are a number of experts there - including a former SAA builder from the Colt Custom Gun Shop.

That's what I would do to get a definitive answer.
 
Hi, Driftwood,

Have you ever seen anything definitive on the cylinder and frame material of the SAA? I once read that they were originally wrought iron, like the percussion guns, which was why they used case hardening to prevent wear from the internal parts. (Iron can't be hardened - the carbon content is not right.)

Then c. 1900, Colt switched to steel and that is when they OK'd the guns for smokeless powder, but kept the color case hardening as a cosmetic feature.

Jim
 
I didn't think the case hardening was ever just 'cosmetic' until the 2nd. Gen guns more recently.

I think the early soft steel was tougher, and more likely to stretch instead of fracture.

But I think it was still soft, and needed the case hardening to prevent rapid wear on the contact surfaces.

Back then, there was no way to selectively harden part of the frame without making the thinner parts too hard.

So they went soft core, with a hard exterior by case hardening.


Like an M&M!!
Nobody ever saw an M&M blow up in your hand.

Like an early CCH steel frame, They melt in your mouth, not in your hand.

rc
 
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Quite possibly, but Winchester dropped the case hardening (or at least the color type) when they went from iron to steel around the same time, keeping it only on special order.

It is worth noting that the "hard surface, soft interior" was used by S&W for hammers and triggers right up to the change to MIM; they claimed it was less brittle than the Colt parts, which were made of tool steel and hardened all the way through. FWIW, I have seen broken hammers on both makes, so as far as I am concerned, that jury is still out. Of course the issue for those companies is pretty moot; Colt is out of the DA revolver business, and S&W has gone to MIM.

Jim
 
Hi, Driftwood,

Have you ever seen anything definitive on the cylinder and frame material of the SAA? I once read that they were originally wrought iron, like the percussion guns, which was why they used case hardening to prevent wear from the internal parts. (Iron can't be hardened - the carbon content is not right.)

Then c. 1900, Colt switched to steel and that is when they OK'd the guns for smokeless powder, but kept the color case hardening as a cosmetic feature.


Howdy

In his book The Colt Single Action Revolvers, a Shop Manual, Jerry Kuhnhausen has extensive notes about frame and cylinder materials.

I quote:

Frame Material Notes: (1) Early Black Powder model S.A.A. frames up to about s/n 96,000 (S.A.A. frames manufactured through about mid 1883) were made of malleable iron. (2) Intermediate S.A.A. frames between approx. s/n 96,000 and 180,000 (S.A.A. frames manufactured from about mid 1883 through mid 1898) vary but were apparently made of transitional materials generally similar to modern low-medium carbon steels. The lowest carbon content found in intermediate s/n S.A.A. frames tested to date is approx. .0155, indicating the possibility that early formulations of 1015~1018, or higher carbon type steels may have been used in frames of this era. (3) Although there are exceptions, frames manufactured after s/n 180,000 appear to have been made from medium range carbon steels. The lowest carbon content found in the after s/n 180,000 frames tested was approx. 0213, possibly indicating that 1020~1027, or slightly higher, carbon, or similar, steels may have been used in these frames.

Cylinder material notes: (1) First Generation S.A.A. cylinder material changes began to occur at about the same time that S.A.A. frames were being metallurgically updated. Cylinders prior to to approx. s/n 96,000 were made from materials generally resembling high grade malleable iron. Original cylinders from approx. s/n 96,000 to about 180,000 were made from transitional low/medium carbon type steels. These cylinders and their parent frames were not factory guaranteed for smokeless powder cartridges. Cylinders after frames s/n 180,000 (about mid 1898) began to be made from medium carbon type steels. Later versions of these cylinders were better and more uniformly heat treated. S.A.A. revolvers with cylinders of this final type were factory guaranteed in 1900 for standard factory load smokeless powder cartridges. (2) 1st Generation .357 Magnum cylinders were made from fine grain, higher tensile strength ordinance gun quality steel. These cylinder blanks, identified by a 5 pointed star imprinted on the front, turn up on other caliber S.A.A.'s made during, and after 1935 (The .357 Magnum was introduced in 1935.)

Historical Note: Disagreement apparently still exists amongst historians and collectors as to when Colt factory conversion to smokeless powder model S.A.A. revolver production was finally completed. Some believe, incorrectly, that all frames made beginning with, or after s/n 165,000 (mid 1896) are smokeless powder frames. As far as actual changeover to smokeless powder S.A.A production is concerned, three things are absolutely certain: (1) Colt S.A.A. revolvers produced up to serial number 180,000 (reached about mid 1898) were not guaranteed by the factory for smokeless powder cartridges. (2) Colt did not specifically guarantee S.A.A. revolvers for smokeless powder cartridges until 1900 (beginning s/n in 1900 was about 192,000), and (3) the smokeless powder verified proof (the letters VP in a triangle) was not stamped on Colt S.A.A. revolver triggerguards until sometime in 1901.

End quote.

A few personal comments:

When Kuhnhausen talks about Malleable Iron, he is not talking about Cast Iron. Cast iron has high strength in compression, but because of the impurities that occur in it, cast iron has poor tensile strength. Cast iron is brittle and tends to crack easily. This makes cast iron unsuitable for components such as revolver cylinders, that see high pressures when cartridges are fired. Malleable iron, or Wrought Iron has been annealed by heat treating to make it easy to work without cracking. Malleable iron has been used for centuries to make swords and knives, and was suitable for frames and cylinders of revolvers during the Black Powder era.

Note that it is the cylinder, not the frame, that is the pressure vessel in a revolver. So cylinder strength is the most important consideration regarding what type of cartridges, and how powerful they can be, to be safely fired in any revolver. Note that Kuhnhausen states not only the carbon content of cylinders made during and after 1900, but also the better heat treatment used at that time that allowed Colt to feel confident in guaranteeing the SAA for Smokeless powder in 1900.

Here is a photo of the Verified Proof for Smokeless powder VP in a triangle on the trigger guard of a 2nd Gen Colt.

ColtVerifiedProof.jpg


Case Hardening: The purpose of Case Hardening was to impart a harder surface to the softer iron and steel frames of the SAA. Case Hardening infuses extra carbon into the surface of the metal, forming a thin layer, or 'case' of harder steel for wear resistance, while the underlying body of the metal retains its ductility. This was important for revolver frames because they needed to have the ductility to absorb the pounding of recoil while still being resistant to wear on the surface. The brilliant colors of true bone Case Hardening are a byproduct of the hardening process, they have no intrinsic value of their own. However the 19th Century gun buying public became so enamored with the colors that each firearm manufacturer developed processes to produce the most brilliant colors possible, and they jealously guarded their processes. True bone Case Hardening on modern Colt frames still fulfills the requirements of leaving the interior of the metal ductile while hardening the outer surface. Using modern steels Ruger heat treats and hardens their frames throughout the body of their frames. Interestingly enough, Smith and Wesson never Case Hardened their frames, but they did Case Harden hammers and triggers. But that is another story.
 
Driftwood.
Most excellent coverage of what I was trying to say.

My hats off to you on that one too!!

Rc
 
My thanks for the excellent reply. I am a bit red in the face about the Kuhnhausen book because I have a copy; I just didn't think to look there. But I am glad I asked as your response will assuredly help others.

On the subject of cast iron, I will probably get in trouble again but the oft-misused term "pot metal" refers to cast iron. For some reason, many people have the idea that it refers to low melting point metal, like zinc, melted in a pot. In fact, it refers to the cast iron from which cheap cook pots were made, and guns made from that material are, as you say, brittle and dangerous.

Now, I expect to be told that "Wikipedia says...." But Wikipedia is only as knowledgeable as the person doing the writing, often with no backing other than an individual opinion.

Jim
 
Oh yeah I had a brain fart there, 1880 is after the gun was introduced, however as noted this particular specimen is a 1899.

I'd like the letter from colt and I will invest in that sometime but I will probably wait until it cost 250$ rare than $100 because I'm illogically fiscally challenged like that.

Thanks to all who have responded here! Great information!
 
From Websters:


pot metal - noun -
1. an alloy of copper and lead, formerly used for making plumbing fixtures, bearings, etc.
2. cast iron of a quality suitable for making pots.
3. a low-grade nonferrous alloy used for die casting.

So it seems that it can be applied to both, plus one.
 
robhof

Consider the letter an investment, as the provenance of a Colt letter drives the price at least enough to cover the cost, if not much more!;)
 
Consider the letter an investment, as the provenance of a Colt letter drives the price at least enough to cover the cost, if not much more!


Sorry, but not really. The fact that a Colt, or any other firearm, has been lettered does not in and of itself raise the value of the firearm.

All a factory letter states is the condition the firearm was in when it left the factory; things such as the caliber, barrel length, finish, and type of grips, and when it was shipped, and to whom.

Collectors place extra value on firearms that can be documented to having belonged to a famous historical person or been used in a famous historical event.

If a factory letter reveals the firearm was shipped directly to a famous historical person, then the letter will add tremendous collector's value to the firearm. If for instance the letter states that the gun was shipped to Bat Masterson, or Wyatt Earp, or George Patton, then collector's will pay a hefty premium to own the gun. But instances such as that are very rare. Most of the time a factory letter simply states that the gun was shipped to a distributor, a sporting goods store or a hardware store. If John Wesley Hardin later obtained the gun, the factory letter will not reveal that fact.

If a firearm was connected to a famous historical event, a factory letter will not reveal that, it will take extra, corroborating documentation to prove a firearm was connected to such an event. The factory only kept records of where the gun was shipped, they do not keep records of what happened to it after that.

I was at an auction once where a beautiful, factory engraved Smith and Wesson revolver was up for sale. The factory letter proved that the gun had been shipped directly to Theodore Roosevelt shortly before he left for Cuba and the Spanish American War. That fact made the gun very valuable. But there was no evidence that the gun was actually in Teddy's hand when he stormed San Juan Hill. The S&W factory would have no record of what happened to the gun after they shipped it.

Many times there will be documentary evidence that a particular firearm was involved in an historic battle. For instance collectors will research an ordinary firearm shipped to the Army. But historical documents can prove the firearm was involved in a famous battle, for instance the Custer fight at the Little Big Horn. This gives the firearm tremendous collector's value, but it was the historical documentation that proved the connection to the famous event, not the factory letter.

Most of the time, if the owner of a firearm has lettered a gun, and then sells the gun, he will give the factory letter to the buyer as a courtesy. I have obtained several factory letters this way. It was nice to get the letters, but they did not enhance the value of the gun. It is kind of like selling a used car, and trying to get extra money for the gas in the gas tank. It just does not work that way.

As I said before, factory letters can reveal interesting details about the history of a particular gun. I have an antique Smith and Wesson New Model Number Three. The previous owner had lettered the gun. When I bought it, he gave me the letter. The letter revealed a couple of interesting things; the gun was part of a shipment of four guns to a particular distributor, and the cost at the time had been $13 per gun. That is interesting historical information, but it does not enhance the value of the gun. This letter also stated that the gun had gone back to the factory and been refinished at the factory. That information does enhance the value of the gun, because a gun refinished at the factory is always more valuable than a gun that was refinished at some unknown place.

NewModel302.jpg



Factory letters can be interesting, particularly for a gun that has been in one family for a long time. Knowing where and when the gun shipped will often help document old family stories, and put an actual time and place where an ancestor probably acquired the firearm. But such a factory letter does not enhance the collector's value of the gun.
 
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At one time a certain gentleman (no longer with us) had a little "thing" going. He would learn that a famous person, say Wyatt Earp, had owned SAA #123456. He wrote Colt and got a letter saying that #123456 had been shipped to Wyatt Earp (Colt did ship directly to law officers at the time).

Then he bought a junker SAA, and with some welding and stamping, made it #123456. He sold it for big bucks, and went shopping for another junker SAA.

The neat thing was that if the sucker... I mean "discerning collector" was suspicious and wrote to Colt, they would tell him that #123456 was indeed sent to Marshal Earp and he would be happy.

Illegal? Sure, but proof would be hard to get and BATFE has never been big on prosecuting when the only loser was some big bucks collector.

Jim
 
Hi, CraigC,

When the old timers said that those cheap Spanish S&W and Colt copies were made of "pot metal", they used the term in meaning number 2. The guns are obviously not "non-ferrous", but they are very brittle and many have blown up.

Jim
 
Illegal? Sure, but proof would be hard to get and BATFE has never been big on prosecuting when the only loser was some big bucks collector.

Interesting.

It is a Federal offense to alter the serial number on a firearm. I'm surprised the BATFE wasn't interested in pursuing that.
 
Like any LE agency, BATFE sets priorities and picks its battles. We all know the old "but, officer, everyone else was going as fast as I was" business.

If you were a BATFE agent, which would you go after, a guy selling stolen guns to drug gangs or some sharpie who took a multimillionaire for a few thousand bucks? I know which I would pick on.

Jim
 
I don't know, the ATF seemed to be VERY interested in the dealer who shipped my FFL an old Mauser that had had its serial number removed two years ago.


Sorry, but not really. The fact that a Colt, or any other firearm, has been lettered does not in and of itself raise the value of the firearm.
I agree. You're really rolling the dice with the odds against you. No one is going to pay more for your average run of the mill SAA that was sent to Bob's Hardware somewhere in Missouri. I see no reason to go to the expense of a Colt letter at all.
 
Well, as I said before, sometimes you can find out some interesting details. Roy Jinks urged me a while ago to letter one of my K-22s because he thinks it was a police pistol team gun. But then again, a S&W factory letter costs half what a Colt letter costs.
 
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