Here we go again "no toy weapons"

[Roswell 1847]

Quote:
I am awaiting the day when the use of weapons in war is not discussed in a history lesson,or maybe history is removed from the curriculum altogether.

I am afraid that you are not joking. I have heard of school systems in which textbooks must not have pictures of such things as cake or cookies because seeing them might lead to poor nutrition. Birthday salad anyone?

Some years back the schools in Minnesota found that their new history books were little more than Marxist Diatribes against our Government.
I can look it up if you like.
The books gave only a few words about any historic political figure and they might as well have been written by Micheal Moore.
The thrust of the entire book being the Rich Fat Whiteman Mantra.

 

[max popenker]

Harrisonburg is supposed to be in the non-communist part of the state. What's going on?

Well, speaking on "communism"... back in 1987-89 (my two last years in Soviet school ) i was TAUGHT to maintain and fire AK-47, as well as in basic tactics of infantry squad, military ranks etc. We had about dozen of deactivated AKM in one of classrooms, and we field-stripped and re-assembled them numerous times until we did it instinctively
We also got a live shooting course, although it was too short in my own taste.

However, "no toys at all" was the general rule, i must admit.

that's a "communism" for you, folk

 

[v35]

Look on the flip side, can you give me a good reason why schools should allow toy guns?

However, "no toys at all" was the general rule, i must admit.
that's a "communism" for you, folk

Kind of puts things in perspective for you, doesn't it, keeleon?

Almost from birth children learn by playing and pretending. They play mommy and daddy by playing with dolls and playing dress-up and making pretend food with pretend pots and pans and Play-Doh. What child hasn't put on Daddy's big shoes to walk around in? They play school, they play grocery store, and if they're deprived of mind-numbing TV like mine are they'll be reduced to playing things like pirate ship in the back of my pickup truck. They play spaceship by climbing up a tree or into a cardboard box that transports them to destinations limited only by their imagination. If they're only allowed to pretend, imagine, play, and basically be the children they are, they'll grow up to be productive and happy adults who don't go shooting up shopping malls.

Tell me how depriving a child the ability to pretend, or by telling him it's bad to pretend by removing simple plastic toys, will help him or her develop the ability to discriminate between the real and the imagined. I think it's highly unlikely that pretend play with toy swords and guns, or that drawings, depictions, or mention of "gun" or "knife" result in real acts of violence. In fact, I'd counter that depriving children of their natural inclination to play itself promotes the likelihood of a child's inability to learn acceptable social behavior and blurs the line between right and wrong.

Deprive a boy of his toy gun, sword, or light saber, and he'll use sticks. Should we ban sticks? Zero tolerance for flora? There's no place for sticks, branches, or other woody substances on school grounds. Only books. Comrade.

Zero tolerance laws serve a collectivist agenda, which by its nature seeks to deprive us of those qualities that make us human.

How many times does "Wolf!" need to be cried before we ignore it, and some kid brings a REAL gun?

It seems to me the stupidity of zero tolerance laws - and shortsighted attempts at reason like keeleon's - have contributed to this very outcome.

 

[keeleon]

OK, apperently my meaning was slightly off in this statement:

I seriously doubt any of the kids bringing toy guns to school have the proper training, physically and morally to not do something stupid with them.

In that past I mentioned, elementary school kids and their parents were told that BB guns were not allowed but toys were allowed. (There weren't airsoft guns then.) Hard as it might be to believe this, the parents then did not allow their kids to bring a BB gun to school and the kids did not

However, most toy guns today DO fire projectiles. I was not talking about the ones that go click when you pull the trigger or inert plastic molds. I can only imagine how long it would take for someone to put an eye out if kids were allowed to have "airsoft guns" at recess. Sure you can come back with "We used to shoot BB guns at each other all the time with no eye protection". Guess what? that was pretty stupid wouldn't you agree? A simple thing like eye protection makes toy guns go from dangerous to fun. Again, it is not my place to say whether kids should be able to do stupid things when they are NOT at school, but is the school supposed to buy and enforce eye protection at every recess so a few kids can have toy guns? Or is it easier to say "sorry, you shouldn't have them here"?

As far as "teaching" in "schools", that's a completely different thread. I am the IT Manager at my school, and as such I have no power over the curriculum. I would wholeheartedly support teaching gun safety in school along with practical applications. As I stated, I work at an ELEMENTARY school. I think that is a little young for standardized rifle training, but teaching basic safety should be an option. I also understand that the only way to get guns accepted in main stream culture is to get people to not be irrationally afraid of them. But we need to pick our battles. Is elementary school really the place to start society as a whole onto the notion that guns aren't scary? It sounds liek a good idea, but in practice it doesn't work.

I have never once stated "take the toy guns away from the children". I merely agree that they have no place in school, especially lower grades. Your higher grades do have optional training in the form of ROTC and Boy Scouts that is actually school sponsored.

A public school does not have to allow it's students all of the rights protected by the constitution while they are on it's campus. When you take your child to a school, they are assuming ALL liabilites and responsibilty for your chil, as well as everyone else's there. The "nanny state" comments are hilarious in this context, because, yes a public school is SUPPOSED to be a "nanny state". It is only slightly more structured day care.

As for kids being smart, I'm sure YOUR kids are smart, and I KNOW most kids are very smart if you sit down with them one on one. But have you ever tried to control a room full of 30 10 year olds? Just like with adults, the larger the group, the lower the collective IQ. Throw in some toy weapons in that rowdiness, and it can get even more rowdy to the point of dangerous. Not to mention that, just like with adults, there ARE stupid kids, and unfortunately the bad ones DO ruin it for the rest of us.

But is there at least one person in some school who could think his or her way through to the recognition that a kid who would bring a real gun to school might do it whether or not toy guns are prohibited?

So then by this logic, we SHOULD allow kids to have toy guns on campus, but when they do bring in a real gun, just ignore it? Or should we do something about that kid with a real gun? Who is going to make the differentiation call? Every school now has to have a "range officer" to make sure that all the guns actually are toys? Or do we just make a rule that makes it easy for us to react and make a decision when we do see a gun in the hand of a child?

If they sneak their stolen shooting irons into school anyway, they're violating several laws already. So you think that a school rule will stop them?

I'm not saying it will stop them, but I am saying it will help in identification, when the rules state "no guns", that kid gets in trouble whther it's real or not. Hey, kind of like if I rob a liquor store with a "toy gun" I still get assault charges

Remember guys, I AM on your side, and I do see your points, but until society is comfortable with them, the last place we need this kind of problem is in a school.

 

[keeleon]

Kind of puts things in perspective for you, doesn't it, keeleon?

Almost from birth children learn by playing and pretending. They play mommy and daddy by playing with dolls and playing dress-up and making pretend food with pretend pots and pans and Play-Doh. What child hasn't put on Daddy's big shoes to walk around in? They play school, they play grocery store, and if they're deprived of mind-numbing TV like mine are they'll be reduced to playing things like pirate ship in the back of my pickup truck. They play spaceship by climbing up a tree or into a cardboard box that transports them to destinations limited only by their imagination. If they're only allowed to pretend, imagine, play, and basically be the children they are, they'll grow up to be productive and happy adults who don't go shooting up shopping malls.

I do not disagree with anything you say here. And as I have repeatedly stated, I have no problem with children having toy weapon ANYTHING. My point is only that they DON'T NEED TO BE AT SCHOOLS:banghead:

After school with their freinds? Sure. Playing with mom or dad? Heck ya! Hell even pointing their fingers and going "bang" at recess is ok by me. A public school is a hectic enough place to be (and learn) as it is, I personally don't think adding any of these things will make it any less hectic.

Tell me how depriving a child the ability to pretend, or by telling him it's bad to pretend by removing simple plastic toys, will help him or her develop the ability to discriminate between the real and the imagined. I think it's highly unlikely that pretend play with toy swords and guns, or that drawings, depictions, or mention of "gun" or "knife" result in real acts of violence. In fact, I'd counter that depriving children of their natural inclination to play itself promotes the likelihood of a child's inability to learn acceptable social behavior and blurs the line between right and wrong.

Again, I have no problem allowing them to do it, and I never stated that having a toy gun will cause them to be violent. I merely stated that if they misuse them, they can injure someone. I think the real problem of communication here is that everyone is assuming that "toy gun" means just a little piece of inert plastic that has a trigger and maybe some caps. Today's toy guns are airsoft, plain and simple. What kid honestly wants a little cap revolver, when he can have a gun that actually fires projectiles accurately and is the same thing "fiddy's got". Hell, I wouldn't be against nerf or water guns in school, but you have to word the "ruling" just right or you will get loopholes and have problems. It is easier to just say no to it all. After all doesn't everyone agree that school should be a place of learning? How much do toy guns contribute to learning, honestly?

I have a unique view of this situation as I work in an elementary school AND I have managed an airsoft store. I KNOW what toy guns the kids are playing with now! I KNOW how kids behave at school! Those are 2 things I would not suggest combining.

Deprive a boy of his toy gun, sword, or light saber, and he'll use sticks. Should we ban sticks? Zero tolerance for flora? There's no place for sticks, branches, or other woody substances on school grounds. Only books. Comrade.

What's to stop them from using these "so called imaginations" to pretend they have a gun? I certainly am not. Hell I'd be out there playing with them if I didn't have these damn servers to watch. My mom havd a pretty strict "no toy gun" policy when I was little. She thought she was "protecting" me, but then my dad died, and she started getting more leniant. By 15 I had over 100 nerf guns, and by 18 I had easily $2000 in airsoft. so I understand what happens when you "deprive" them.

 

[ArmedBear]

I am not sure how I feel about this.

I went to a private school run by wonderfully rabid libertarians. The second principal during my time there was retired UDT. Guns were freely discussed, as were the more violent aspects of American history including the Revolution; taking up arms, when appropriate, was celebrated as a positive moral value.

But AFAIK toy guns were not allowed 35 years ago, there. They just didn't belong in school.

For a school play, with permission, sure. But not just kicking around in our backpacks.

 

[41magsnub]

In high school in the 90's I took a class called History of War

In the class we discussed weapons of war and tactics from the stone age and up. In the class the instructor brought in a real example or replica of a weapon from each era we were studying. The instructor was also a Colonel MT National Guard and brought in an M16A1 and an M60 along with a LAWS trainer unit during the Vietnam section.

We passed each weapon around. Each was the real deal, the swords were sharp, the guns were real including the bayonet for the M16. I seriously doubt that would be allowed today...

 

[Roswell 1847]

I just remembered something.
Long before airsoft there were spring powered bean guns that fired double action to propel small plaster beads at an energy level higher than most airsoft pistols. These got banned quickly because they stung pretty smartly and the one who got stung generally came out swinging.
Another popular toy was a pop gun that we used to make match stick darts for. If you were careful in constructing the darts they flew quiet a distance with some degree of accuracy. More than a few of the straight pins used as points ended up buried in some kids head.
Toy guns were proving more dangerous than the real guns at that point, since there was never a case of a real gun being pulled much less used.

As for "Zero Tolerance" thats a pretty lame copout to dealing with situations on an individual basis. Judge each infraction on its merits.
No one brought those bean shooters and dart throwers as weapons for either intimidation or defense, yet they caused minor injuries and fights. The real guns occasionally brought for defense on the way to and from school were never a problem at all.
The real guns brought to show and tel proved beneficial and instructive, they made history come alive and promoted interest in the past in a healthy manner.

 

[Mannix]

Kids tend to live up to expectations. If you expect them to be irresponsible and treat them like cattle to be herded from class to class, that's exactly what you get. If you treat them like human beings, that is, give them some freedom and hold them responsible for their actions, they can really surprise the hell out of you sometimes.

Where the system is headed now all children will be forced to be in a protective bubble while at school, and any free time in the child's schedule will be squashed out because the powers that be deem them to be incapable of handling such freedom. Any problem child mucking up the utopia will be promptly expelled.

It used to be that you gave a kid freedom to mess up, and when he did, you'd correct him, and everyone would get on with their lives. Nowadays if a 10 year old brings a knife in to school solely to cut food, the administration throws a hissy fit, the kid is expelled, then sent to Juvie, and faces possible FELONY charges.


We took a wrong turn somewhere in the 70's and it's been all downhill from there, and personally I don't have much hope for the public school system fixing itself.

 

[v35]

I have no problem with children having toy weapon ANYTHING. My point is only that they DON'T NEED TO BE AT SCHOOLS

I understand your point; toy guns have as much place in a public school as Matchbox cars. They're both toys, and equally harmless. My point is that zero tolerance for one makes as much sense as zero tolerance for the other. Zero tolerance policies only lead to pernicious manifestations, when taken to the extreme that they have. I have no tolerance for zero tolerance.

... a public school is SUPPOSED to be a "nanny state". It is only slightly more structured day care.

Agreed. Unfortunately that's all it's good for. And I pay big bucks for it, whether I want to or not :banghead:

... have you ever tried to control a room full of 30 10 year olds? Just like with adults, the larger the group, the lower the collective IQ.

True. Forty years later I've found they behave no different in business meetings.

..., just like with adults, there ARE stupid kids, and unfortunately the bad ones DO ruin it for the rest of us.

Reasons #24, 25, and 26 that we Home School

personally I don't have much hope for the public school system fixing itself.

Nothing fixes itself. When ignored, things tend toward disorder and chaos, like the shambles public schools have become. Schools are broken. Reason #27.

Thanks for giving me a reason to go off on an anti-collective rant keeleon. Glad I don't work in an elementary school.

 

[MakAttak]

What's to stop them from using these "so called imaginations" to pretend they have a gun? I certainly am not. Hell I'd be out there playing with them if I didn't have these damn servers to watch. My mom havd a pretty strict "no toy gun" policy when I was little. She thought she was "protecting" me, but then my dad died, and she started getting more leniant. By 15 I had over 100 nerf guns, and by 18 I had easily $2000 in airsoft. so I understand what happens when you "deprive" them.

Who's going to deprive them? Here in Northern Virginia my girlfriend works in a public school as well. The teachers REAM the children for making a gun with their hands and "shooting" their classmates.

By ream I don't mean the usual "Oh, that's not nice" that the teachers do when children actually hit each other or throw things at their other classmates. I mean scream at the child because "WE DON'T DO THAT!!!"

So... again... who is going to stop them? The thought police, that's who.

 

[keeleon]

By ream I don't mean the usual "Oh, that's not nice" that the teachers do when children actually hit each other or throw things at their other classmates. I mean scream at the child because "WE DON'T DO THAT!!!"

And I don't agree with that. Believe me, it drives me crazy that I can't wear my gun hats or shirts at work because "they're offensive". Or even bring in my gun (reading) magazines to show to a coworker. When I worked in a cutlery and an airsof store it was almost REQUIRED to talk about and bring in that kind of stuff. So it does make me upset that it is such a taboo. Although, I am working on getting the librarian to stock "Guns and Ammo" next to the "Disney" magazine. She can't come up with a valid reason other than "No".

It used to be that you gave a kid freedom to mess up, and when he did, you'd correct him, and everyone would get on with their lives. Nowadays if a 10 year old brings a knife in to school solely to cut food, the administration throws a hissy fit, the kid is expelled, then sent to Juvie, and faces possible FELONY charges.

Again, seems stupid to me. If you don't want the kid to have a knife (valid concern imo) then you take it away from them and give it back at the end of the day, and say "don't bring it again". Maybe you notify the parents that the child probably shouldnt have a knife while on campus. Perhaps *gasp* the parent could cut the child's food if it needs to be cut! I am not talkign about at the dinner table or at a resturaunt. I m talking about at a school, where there ARE valid concerns for a child having a knife.

Like I said when you leave your child at a public school, they are taking all liability and responsibility for YOUR child. If your child accidently (albiet "responsibly") cuts themselves with that knife at school, then it is the school's responsibility. If they do it at home, it is yours. If you don't like giving someone else that responsibility (and that decision making ability), then take them out of public school.

Seems easy enough to me.

They're both toys, and equally harmless.

Not necesarily true. Like I said "toy guns" today, are mostly airsoft. An airsoft gun can put out an eye alot easier than a toy car. (If your toy car puts out an eye, you're doing it wrong.)

And I pay big bucks for it, whether I want to or not :banghead:

Man do I totally feel you on that. I don't have kids and might not be able to, and yet I get to pay for everything in my school having to be translated to spanish just as much aas everyone else.

Zero tolerance policies only lead to pernicious manifestations, when taken to the extreme that they have. I have no tolerance for zero tolerance

Personally, I think zero tolerance policies against robbery, rape and murder are a good thing. But they can be taken too far, and that is an unfair hyperbole.

 

[tacweapon]

I graduated from Harrisonburg High School last year and at that time there had been a discussion for a few years about a dress code. There was not supposed to be any weapons in the school except the School Resource Officers and the JROTCs fortunaly I was in the JROTC and was the captain of the Marksmanship team so there was some firearms safety that was taught but that was only to the members of the team and it took place after the school day. There ban on toy weapons does not work however because about a 2 months ago a male student brought a loaded semi-automatic handgun to school and got away with it until one of the parents found out it was there and complained to the police department and then the police got involved and arrested the individual. I personaly believe that Firearms safety should be taught in every high school, Rockingham County used to teach firearms safety to the students but I believe that they have stopped because of people complaining it was taught but I am not sure.

 

[Eric F]

Well here is my take on this. Kids should be going to school to learn not play with toys. There should be a total toy ban for school. now drawings is a bit far after all there is art class. And talking about guns should be fine as long as it is not obsessive.

 

[RX-178]

I, for the most part, agree that toys have no place at school, including toy guns.


But the fact that these rules at Harrisonburg are SPECIFICALLY talking about toy guns speaks volumes about what's really on their minds.

 

[tacweapon]

I to agree that toys do not belong in school after the kid is out of grade school but it is just the wording that causes problems in my mind

 

[Eric F]

But the fact that these rules at Harrisonburg are SPECIFICALLY talking about toy guns speaks volumes about what's really on their minds.

Yeah Va Tech, Columbine, Jonesboro, or any other number of schools. Fact is eliminating toy guns from school means that there is less chance of a real gun getting by. I am sure that I will not explain my thought well here but I will give this example. Guns can be passed off as toys to fellow students if seen and not handeled. Now the chances of a student informing a staff member have increased just based on there should be no guns and/or toys that look like guns in school. Basicaly what I mean here is the board is scared of shootings because of recent past events. It is also a liability blanket for them. They are now off the hook so to speak if a kid shoots up a school in their area based upon we told them no guns and/or gun like toys in school.

So what is on their minds is not necessairly anti-gun but more like fear of school shootings and liability.

 

[ArmedBear]

I went to a libertarian-owned private school with flags flying. We weren't allowed to bring toy guns, lighters, etc. to school, 35 years ago. Why should kids bring this stuff to school?

 

[CB900F]

Keeleon;

Can you inform us why schools will not invite programs in, such as the NRA's Eddie Eagle, to inform the students about the responsibilities they have when encountering the tools of violence? After all, aren't the schools there to educate? What's wrong with that particular segment of extremely useful information? Or, could it be, that diversity only includes politically correct diversity as defined by the screaming left? The screaming left defined as the N.E.A.

900F

 

[LWGN]

But we need to pick our battles. Is elementary school really the place to start society as a whole onto the notion that guns aren't scary?

"Give me the children until they are seven, and anyone may have them afterward." - Francis Xavier

The core values and beliefs instilled in early childhood are typically accepted without thought or analysis, and are only rejected later if somewhat extraordinary circumstances trigger a restructuring of the entire existential paradigm. When anything is treated as taboo during early childhood, you can bet that a level of discomfort with that subject will remain into adulthood, even if no rational reason can be found for the taboo. So elementary schools are precisely the place to start society as a whole onto the notion that guns are tools and not scary, because treating them as a taboo topic in schools (let alone actively promoting an anti-gun position, which many schools do) virtually ensures that most children who go through such a school environment will pick up the taboo, and the earlier the child starts school, the more likely this is to happen. It used to be that many children didn't start any kind of formal schooling until age six or seven. Now, pre-K programs are the norm, and there is a push on for children to start formal school programs (of the Head Start variety) at age three!

If the school environment doesn't play a strong role in molding the social, philosophical, and moral development of children, why are there such strong battles around schools and prayer, sexuality, and other issues not strictly relevant to academic pursuits? The schools have the power to influence the hearts and minds of the children placed in their custody. We have a responsibility to help ensure that they influence them in a direction that promotes reason, personal responsibility, and a respect for our Constitution, our liberties and our history.

 

[Eric F]

Can you inform us why schools will not invite programs in, such as the NRA's Eddie Eagle, to inform the students about the responsibilities they have when encountering the tools of violence?

Why yes I can as for my state in virginis there is no funding for it and it is not part of the "Standards of Learning" criteria to graduate school. after the SOL got instilled teachers are basically not allowed to teach anything extra, or so I understand it.

 

[76shuvlinoff]

Sorry there's no room for toy guns in school

I never gave my daughter toy guns, I did however teach her to shoot real ones and to appreciate the results.

flame suit on.

 

[cambeul41]

76shuvlinoff said in post # 47

Sorry there's no room for toy guns in school

I never gave my daughter toy guns, I did however teach her to shoot real ones and to appreciate the results.

flame suit on.

No flame suit needed -- unless you are in favor of zero tolerance for such crimes as pointing a finger and saying "Bang."

 

[SamTuckerMTNMAN]

Phase 2, remove all history books. Filled with violence those things are!

Underway . . . and the teachers. Find out what your local middle school is doing with certified American/US/State history teachers. Here they are being moved to 7th grade (Africa, Europe Asia) and US history is being taught, untested, on the side by other subject teachers who are judged based on performance in their degree area. MEANING = US history gets the shaft. Do you soldiers, veterans, citizens, see what is happening here?