Hi Capacity Mags in CA.

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Magazines

Effective January 1, 2000, SB 23 generally prohibits, the manufacture, import, sale, giving or lending of large capacity magazines (defined as any ammunition feeding device with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds, but does not include .22 caliber tube ammunition feeding devices).

SB23 does NOT prohibit the owership of magazines owned prior to January 1, 2000 nor does it prevent the repair of damaged ones.

If I have a large-capacity magazine, do I need to get rid of it?

No. Continued possession of large-capacity magazines (able to accept more than 10 rounds) that you owned in California before January 1, 2000, is not prohibited. However as of January 1, 2000, it is illegal to buy, manufacture, import, keep for sale, expose for sale, give or lend any large-capacity magazine in California except by law enforcement agencies, California peace officers, or licensed dealers.

(lifted from CalGuns)

I am writing in response to your letter (undated) regarding large-capacity ammunition magazines. You had a number of questions:

Q1: Can you import newly manufactured parts to repair a legally obtained hi-cap magazine?
A1: Yes.

Q2: Are there any restrictions on which parts can and cannot be imported?
A2: No.

Q3: Can you import all the parts of a single hi-cap magazine at once, provided they are unassembled?
A3: Yes.

Q4: Can a California resident travel to another state, purchase a hi-cap magazine in that state, dissassemble it and ship the required replacement parts back to themselves in California?
A4: Penal Code section 12020(a)(2) makes it illegal to import a large capacity magazine into the state of California. If you traveled to another state in order to import a large capacity magazine, you would be guilty of a felony, even if you disassembled the large capacity magazine before returning to California. If you disassembled the large capacity magazine with the intent to use it only as repair parts, you could lawfully bring the parts in to California. In either case, you would test the limits of the law, and be at risk of criminal prosecution.

Q5: Can you replace the magazine body with one marked "For Law Enforcement Only"?
A5: While theoretically you could use such a part to repair a lawfully owned large capacity magazine, most dealers would be unlikely to sell you such a magazine body, unless you were a law enforcement officer.

Q6: Is there any limitation to the number of parts you can replace in a legally obtained hi-cap magazine? (Scenario: if on successive days I replace each individual part of a legally obtained hi-cap magazine, am I guilty of assembling a new hi-cap magazine once the final part is replaced?)
A6: Whether the scenario you describe constitutes repairing or manufacturing a large capacity magazine depends upon the legal opinion of the prosecutor in the jurisdiction where the acts occur. There are 58 district attorneys in California's 58 counties. They could elect to prosecute you for a felony (Penal Code 12280(a)(2)), if they believed that you were manufacturing a large capacity magazine.

Q7: If the magazine body is replaced with one clearly manufactured after 2000 is there any burden of proof upon a California resident that they did in fact replace a worn/obsolete part and did not illegally purchase/import a new hi-cap magazine.
A7: A California resident who repairs a large capacity magazine that was owned before January 1, 2000 does not have any "burden of proof" that the magazine was repaired, rather than replaced with a new magazine. However, it would be prudent in such a case to keep records documenting the purchase of the part necessary for the repair in order to demonstrate that the large capacity magazine was repaired, not replaced.

Q8: Can you use parts designed for a 10-round magazine to repair a legally obtained hi-cap magazine?
A8: If parts designed for a 10-round magazine are interchangeable with parts of a legally obtained large capacity magazine, there is no legal barrier to using them.

Q9: Can you have enough spare parts to assemble a new hi-cap magazine provided they are unassembled and intended for use as replacement parts?
A9: Whether the scenario you describe constitutes posession of magazine parts with the intent to manufacture or with the intent to repair a large capacity magazine depends upon the legal opinion of the prosecutor in the jurisdiction where the acts occur. You could be charged with a felony (Penal Code 12280(a)(2)), if a prosecutor believed that you were manufacturing a large capacity magazine
 
So if I owned hi cap mags for my guns I bought after the CA law took effect, I would have had to leave them in a garbage can on the state line before I moved here? Would bringing them with me when I moved be importing.
 
Yes, you would have to leave them at stateline. The only high-cap magazines legal in the state of California are the ones that were purchased before January 1, 2000, and they are only legal for the original purchasers. You cannot be sold or given a high-capacity magazine, pre-ban or not.

Sorry, but you're SOL. Have fun with the ten-round mag limit, and don't forget to heil Feinstein on your way in. :barf:
 
Keep in mind though, that proving that you did not own them prior to 01-01-2000 is up to the CA DOJ. You do not have to supply the burden of proof of legal ownership.

That being the case, save for a few ways of them being able to prove you imported, loaned, sold, bought etc....well, you catch my drift. Don’t do anything stupid.
 
Don't bother keeping that in mind.

You weren't a resident here in 1999 or before. You cannot have imported before 2000. All the DOJ needs to show is that you got your driver's license in 2006 and you will be looking at a felony.

Worse, all the DOJ has to do is charge you with importing it and you must sell/give off your firearms until you've cleared your name... and you won't clear your name if the DOJ shows a jury you came into the state in 2006.

Why would anybody even suggest playing around with this?
 
Ed's right on with his post, don't bother. Burden of proof? Say that when your the one sitting behind bars. Losing your right to ever own a firearm again isn't worth the trouble.

The laws here suck but don't lose your rights by placing yourself in a position to get busted. Because one thing is for certain, you'll probably tell someone about it. Now how many people do you think this person might tell? What do you think they'll say to the cops if they ever get busted? Get the point? Be safe.;)
 
You weren't a resident here in 1999 or before. You cannot have imported before 2000. All the DOJ needs to show is that you got your driver's license in 2006 and you will be looking at a felony.
Click to expand...

Total BS. Possession of high cap mags is TOTALLY UNREGULATED in CA. Should I say that again? OK... POSSESSION OF HIGH CAP MAGS IS TOTALLY UNREGULATED in CA. Period. There are no laws, at all, NONE, that have ANYTHING to do with the possession of a "high capacity" magazine.

If the DOJ does not literally catch you in the act of importation, manufacture, sale or purchase THEY HAVE NO CASE.

Also, do not forget about the statute of limitations, you cannot be charged for (most) crimes which occured more than 3 years ago. In other words, they could have you on video tape selling 5000 high cap mags for a kilo of coke on Sept 6th, 2003 and the state of CA couldn't touch you. :neener:
 
Blackrazor...

It doesn't matter whether possession is verbotten. I didn't say posession was verbotten. Possession isn't the issue.

You don't have to be caught in the act to prove importation. If, for example, the magazine was manufactured after 12/31/1999 or is specific to a gun that wasn't manufactured before 1/1/2000, they can prove it was imported after the date. There are other ways to prove it was imported, including proving that you didn't come into the state until after the ban.

The law isn't just importation. It also blocks lending, selling, offering to sell, manufacturing, keeping for sale, or giving high cap magazines ... so you can't say "I gave this to my buddy before the ban and then he gave it back to me." You can't say "I borrowed it." You can only say, "It was in this state and in my possession before 1/1/2000.

The burden of proof is on them, but they are trolling a shooting range (and LEOs do go to shooting ranges "on duty") and find out:
1) You bought the gun in 2005, or
2) You moved to California in 2006

...which are perfectly normal things to mention to your new friends at the range if you are new to the state...

They are going to ask questions, and probably take the "evidence" and perhaps lay charges... and you don't want ANY of that.

Beyond that, if you do end up using the gun for defense, law enforcement is going to be going over you with a fine toothed comb and if they find weapons violations they will prosecute them. Time and again people have been cleared of a justifiable homicide (e.g. self defense) but charged with carrying, or possessing, the gun, ammo, or something else they used to defend themselves with... which could include the magazine.

And why would you want to face felony charges for an extra few rounds anyway? Just carry a second mag if you want.


Edit: And it wasn't how the CA DOJ told people to think... it is, sadly, how the majority of the people of the state of California, through their elected representatives, told people to think. It is a law.
 
Ed--

I agree entirely. They don't even have to ask. They just need to see the license plate of the car you drive out to
1) find your name and determine the date you began renting/buying your house/apartment/condo
2) look through the DROS data they receive to find out when that gun was purchased

Blackrazor-- Ed's right, just because so far we haven't heard of a case tried regarding illegal importation of high-cap magazines, doesn't mean they won't start with you. I also think it's in rather poor taste to suggest to someone that they commit a felony by using the fool-proof "come on, how's anyone gonna know?" argument.

Respect the law, regardless of what Ralph Waldo Emerson thinks, and if you don't like it, help us change it .
 
Ed, Mr. V,

I was fighting hard against SB23 when it was passed, and now that it's law I can tell you that you we aren't going to get it repealed by simply contacting your representative. FWIW, I bought myself all the high cap mags and AWs I would ever want in the summer of '99, but I still go out of my way to find every loophole in the law I can. I'll never stop trying to kill every piece of anti-gun legislation, law or not, by any means necessary. That's why I wrote the letter to the DOJ clarifying the legality of "off list lowers"... just to screw over the DOJ. I don't need any more AR's, but I bought 4 DSA "ZM4" recievers anyway, again, just to screw them over.

And sometimes, the best and only way to combat a bad law is to blatently disobey it. History is filled with examples of this, including the founding of our country, the end of prohibition, and the end of segregation. Sometimes breaking the law is the only acceptable course of action... unless of course you think that Rosa Parks should have shut up and sat at the back of the bus.

Unfortunately today, most people don't have the guts to do the right thing anymore. Sure, everyone's got some excuse... "I'm too old", "I've got kids", "I've got to much to lose", etc. etc. But in the end, it's always the same excuse... cowardice. When a law is wrong and/or immoral but you just line up and behave like a good citizen and obey, then YOU are the problem. So long as the state keeps you pacified by filling your belly with food and your brain with enless reruns of your favorite sitcom, you are nothing more than a slave. That's what this country has become, a bunch of mindless, gutless, fat slaves with no ambition, and no purpose in life other than to pay their taxes and check off the days until they die. And that's all you'll ever be, a slave to the man, supporting their two-party system, working your 9-5 job, and coming home to your token wife, token kids and your token "property". Congratulations.

Lawbreakers are some of our country's greatest heroes. So cheers to the NON law-abiding citizen, without whom our country and freedoms would never exist.
 
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And why would you want to face felony charges for an extra few rounds anyway? Just carry a second mag if you want.
Click to expand...

And why would you want a 17rd mag? Just carry a second mag.
(time passes)
And why would you want a 15rd mag? Just carry a second mag.
(time passes)
And why would you want a 10rd mag? Just carry a second mag.
(time passes)
And why would you want an 8rd mag? Just carry a second mag.
(time passes)
And why would you want a 5rd mag? Just carry a second mag.
(time passes)
And why would you want more than one round? Just carry another round.
(time passes)
A gun? Why, are you a police officer?
(finis)
 
Blackrazor...

That's fine up to the point where you suggest someone else break the law for your political gain. If you want to break the law, break it... I'm not going to tell you not to. I don't think it'll do me or any other California gun owner a BIT of good, but I'm not the boss of you. However, telling someone else about a "loophole" that doesn't exist in the hopes that they'll become a test case is not cool.

Manedwolf...

So you see the problem... now tell me where "Man sentenced to 12 Months for Illegally Importing High-Capacity Magazines Into California" headlines and politicians responding "we need to do more to keep these dangerous items out of the hands of criminals" will put a stop to it? It won't. The only way to put a stop to it is to convince the people that such restrictions are silly... and if "criminals" are willing to break the law to get around the restriction, that makes it more obvious that the restrictions are preventing bad behavior.

edit: changed the "sentenced to" to the actual maximum sentence allowed by law.
 
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If the DOJ does not literally catch you in the act of importation, manufacture, sale or purchase THEY HAVE NO CASE.
Click to expand...

First, you are a moron for coming on to a gun board which is certianly looked at by the authorities, and advocating that people commit a felony. Second, as was pointed out below, there are bunches of ways to bust someone for having hi-caps. If there's a part number on the magazine I can call the manufacturer to find out when it was made, I can check your credit card records if you paid for it that way, or at the very least, I can make your life miserable attempting to prosecute you, forcing you to waste thousands in legal fees.


Also, do not forget about the statute of limitations, you cannot be charged for (most) crimes which occured more than 3 years ago. In other words, they could have you on video tape selling 5000 high cap mags for a kilo of coke on Sept 6th, 2003 and the state of CA couldn't touch you.
Click to expand...

That would be great except for the fact that while you are in possession of the magazine you are comitting a crime. As a result, you are SOL with the SOL.

If you want to be a moral crusader fine, but don't go spouting off moronic stuff that gets some unsuspecting CA gun owner busted. I hate the stupid DOJ and their laws as much as the next guy, but I swear if I had your address I just might call it in.:cuss: :fire: :banghead:
 
A couple of notes...

1) Offhand, I believe hicap mag violations are misdemeanors. Whether they're 'prohibiting misdemeanors' w/10year firearms ban I dunno, and not sure what happens with multiple counts.


2) Our hats should be off to user 'blackrazor' above. He was the key guy - apparently the 2nd guy (after J. W. Harrott) to legally own "off-list" rifle/receivers. Ben Cannon (artherd) on Calguns was the 2nd person to grab hold of Harrott and get another off-list AR in CA. After that, it was the San Jose gunshow with El Rojo (Wes of Ten Percent Firearms) selling off-list AR lowers en masse - with some supporting paperwork by me to help folks stay legal. It's been a long fun ride since then.


Bill Wiese
San Jose
 
Hmm... lemee research the felony part...

12020. (a) Any person in this state who does any of the following
is punishable by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year
or in the state prison:
...
(2) Commencing January 1, 2000, manufactures or causes to be
manufactured, imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or
exposes for sale, or who gives, or lends, any large-capacity
magazine.


So I guess it isn't a felony...sorry for contributing to that misinformation.... it is still a non-trivial crime.
 
Blackrazor said:
I can tell you that you we aren't going to get it repealed by simply contacting your representative.
Click to expand...
You're absolutely right! We won't get it repealed doing that. I could write to Koretz all day or his new gun-bigot replacement Feuer. We're going to have to change the majority of Californians' minds that arms possession by law abiding citizens is a good thing and restrictions on access to firearms is not. Then we will all elect representatives that favor our view as opposed to electing those that oppose it. I guess that's what a representative democracy is all about.

Blackrazor said:
I don't need any more AR's, but I bought 4 more anyway, again, just to screw them over.
Click to expand...
History will prove who, in fact, screws whom in the end.

Blackrazor said:
sometimes, the best and only way to combat a bad law is to blatently disobey it...unless of course you think that Rosa Parks should have shut up and sat at the back of the bus.
Click to expand...
Yes...sometimes. The problem with the examples of our founders and Ms. Parks you presented, equating them to buying high-capacity magazines, is that YOU can vote. You can democratically select an individual to write laws that you agree with assuming others around you feel the same. We are a republic that has representative democracy. You, last I checked, are able to petition your government for a redress of grievances when you think it is wrong. So far the evil State has not removed your ability to do that.

Blackrazor said:
When a law is wrong and/or immoral but you just line up and behave like a good citizen and obey, then YOU are the problem.
Click to expand...
I see, when someone arbitrarily decides when a law is immoral, the proper course in a representative democracy is to break it and tell others to as well? I agree with others...you can do what you want. Don't mislead others into telling them that what they're doing isn't actually a crime when it's very clearly stated in law that it is...Not everyone's buying your anarchist views, least of all the Constitution.

Blackrazor said:
...And that's all you'll ever be, a slave to the man, supporting their two-party system, working your 9-5 job, and coming home to your token wife, token kids and your token "property". Congratulations.
Click to expand...
The man? you mean the "man" whom we all elected? Are you referring to the same two-party system that has essentially existed since the founding of the nation? Is it wrong to work? What is a token wife? I don't understand the exact point you're getting at...
 
So I guess it isn't a felony...sorry for contributing to that misinformation.... it is still a non-trivial crime.
Click to expand...
good to know. But I agree...A year in state prison sounds anything but trivial...
 
Okay, so, yeah.

Bottom line - each man must make an ethical decision as to whether or not to obey this particular law. If your personal morals allow you to risk the penalties of getting caught breaking it, then maybe you should go ahead and thumb your nose at the CA DOJ.

As for me, I also had purchased several "pre-ban hi-cap" mags, even left some in original wrappers, just to make sure I had a decent supply, before the ban took effect.

Blackrazor is stating his opinion on what someone should do (even if the original statement was a bit misleading) and that's fine. It's up to each of us to make a concious decision as to whether or not to follow his advice.

Just please, please, please, make your choice a well-informed one. The old saw, "I didn't know any better" is just a cop-out, and won't stand up in court anyway, so do your due dilligence first.

Also, I found the book "How to Own a Gun and Stay Out of Jail - California Edition" to be a great resource when I was a new gun owner, and I'd recommend it for a new resident as well.
 
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