Hi Point 9mm carbine and lead

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marineshooter

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I just got back from the range, I had loaded 1oo rds of Missouri Bullets 115 gr lrn with 4.o grs of titegroup. Leaded from chamber to comp. The comp. was filled with lead coming out the slots. I use a Lee pro disc powder measure. 4.0 grs is the .34 hole, if I go to the next hole which is the .37 it is 4.4 grs. The range is 3.9 -4.3. Any help would be great. By the way this load of 4.0 grs of titegroup under MB 115 lrn works great in my S&W M&P 9mm. No leading at all.
 
My guess is, you're load isn't the problem.

The problem, most likely, is the barrel.
It's probably over-sized, so you aren't getting the necessary obturation.

With reference to firearms and air guns, obturation is the result of a bullet or pellet expanding or upsetting to fit the bore, or, in the case of a firearm, of a brass case expanding to seal against the chamber at the moment of firing. In the first case, this both seals the bullet in the bore, and causes the bullet to engage the barrel's rifling. In the second case, it seals the case in the chamber and prevents backward travel of gases against the bolt. The thin brass case easily seals the chamber, even in low pressure rounds like the .22 CB, but expanding or upsetting the bullet sufficiently for effective obturation requires sufficient pressure to deform the bullet material. The formula used to calculate the pressure required for solid base bullets is:
Click to expand...

My C9 handgun loves Missouri Bullet Company's "Small Ball" (124 gr lead round nose)

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=51&category=5&secondary=8&keywords=
 
Sorry if I'm Captain Obvious here but have you weighed the charges coming out of the Lee Pro Disk system? The charts gets you in the ballpark, but you have to weigh to be sure.

My Lee Pro Disk, and this is also reported by many other users, tends to throw lighter than the chart lists. It is consistent so it is no problem but I use the chart to estimate, weigh to verify, adjust as needed, re-weigh on the adjusted data, and then go happily on my way loading a bunch. I verify every 5th or 10th load once I've established for myself which hole give the proper charge.

Good Luck.

Dan
 
Dan, I weigh the first 20-25 charges, then maybe every 20 th or so. All are right 4.0 grs. I just finished getting the lead out of the barrel. almost 2 hours of hard scrubing. If I go to the next size I will be just over the max. and if it throws a little lite ok. But with the long barrel wont the feet per second be over the limit for lrn??
 
Have you slugged the bore? When shooting lead bullets, fit is king. Since you said it's leading all the way down the barrel, sounds more like gas cutting than anything else. Slug the bore then use proper sized bullets.
 
Mine likes them a bit on the large size, but I never lead that bad. One thing you can do is run one jacketed bullet in each clip. Some say it raises pressures on that bullet if it's leaded bad, but I think it would have to be pretty bad. That will clean out the lead for you. I can't say it affects accuracy for the cast bullets. I pretty much shoot all cast, with the above situation, and the others are dead on. Get a better fit and you'll do good.
 
Titegroup is a very fast burning and hot burning pistol powder. My guess is that you are doing some melting on the lead bullet as it goes down that long barrel. I shoot lead in a High Point 9mm using WST, and have no leading issues. My guess would be it's your powder choice. Good for pistol....not so good for rifle.
 
What's the accuracy of the leaded barrel vs un-leaded?

The success / failure of the load & rifle is in the accuracy, not the look od the barrel afterwards.

You may have a self-correcting "problem".
 
After about 25-30 rds I couldnt hit the target. A 6x6 1/2 steel plate at 50 feet. When I would shoot you could almost see the lead coming out the comp. also more smoke than in my 9mm with same loads. Not sure about a self correction problem??
 
Hi neighbor, I have one of those, the barrel bore wants bullets of .357 or .358 size, not the usual .356 for 9mm. Fit is king, if the bullet is undersize, it will lead the barrel. Load some dummy rounds with .357 and .358 size cast bullets and see if they will completely chamber. Pick the largest diameter that will and load a few to try. I also use a less intense powder - 231/HP38 and HS6 are my choices.
 
marineshooter said:
But with the long barrel wont the feet per second be over the limit for lrn??
Click to expand...

A 9mm isn't capable of going that fast, 1340fps is the highest velocity that I've been able to reach, and that's with a 100 grain bullet. I would bet that your bullets are undersized for your carbine. You need to slug your barrel and measure the slug with a micrometer, then buy bullets that are .001"-.002" larger than the groove diameter of the barrel.
 
Try some 125 Gr .38 Spl .358 bullets and see what happens. Tightgroup is a hot burning powder and not the best choice for lead, but I agree with the others, it is most likely a fit problem.
 
Thanks everyone for the help. Walkalong if I use the 38 sp bullets, do I use the load data for the 38 or 9mm??? I have tried to use 231 but did not like the white film that it left on my pistol, Would titegroup be ok with the right dia. bullet?? I have 10 lbs of titegroup.
 
Use 125 Gr lead 9MM data. Make one or two up to make sure they chamber freely. If they will, it will be OK. I shot some Powerbond 125 Gr HP .38 bullets in 9MM to see how they did in case a fellow needed to. They worked quite well. Many 9MM groove diameters are over .355, and many 9MM chambers are pretty generous.

Would titegroup be ok with the right dia. bullet?? I have 10 lbs of titegroup.
Click to expand...
Yes. That is gonna last a long long time. :)
 
I don't know if I would order 500 just to try it. How about if I send you some?
 
Wait a second, you're getting ahead of yourself.

1. Slug you're barrel. Don't do anything else until you do. It's like ordering shoes before you know your foot size.

2. Buy bullets .002 over barrel diameter, when you find out.

3. Load on the mild side, around 1100fps or less. A rifle barrel has an extra 12" on a handgun barrel and will use up the lube much quicker.

I had a HiPoint carbine and shot a Lee 358 RF out if it, around 1000fps, very little leading. As pointed out Titegroup burns very quickly, and shows up as #9 on the burn chart list. Try some Universal, PB or 231 for lead bullets out of a rifle barrel. They are much further down on the list.
 
Walkalong, I just sluged my barrel and it is .358. I am looking at Missouri Bullet and they only offer .38 spl. in 12 hardness. are these bullets too soft to handle the long barrel. I am not looking to get max fps just hit targets and not lead so bad or break the bank. If you could pass on a source to get some cast bullets I would be very gratefull!!!! I have one dumb question. When I use Blaser 115 Gr fmj in my Hi-Point I have no problems with leading. I know that it is a full metal jacket, a cooler burning powder than titegroup. But they measure .356 and I have no leading or copper fouling with my barrel at .358. Any knowledge would be helpful...
 
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The jacket rolls over the base of the bullet a little. This is where gases blow by cutting the lead and depositing it on the bore. No lead there, so no leading.

12 BHN will be OK until it isn't, meaning start at the minimum load and work up. If at some point it will not hold the rifling and skids, you will get leading and know to back off to where you did not. I really do not know if 12 will hold up to full loads, but it just might.

There are other places to buy lead bullets if you are unsure about the 12 BHN, which I would be.
 
"One thing you can do is run one jacketed bullet in each clip. "


"IMHO that is definitely NOT a smart idea!
Do you have any idea what that does to the pressure????? "

Right out of the Lymans Cast Bullet manual. I think the leading would have to be poretty bad to bump up pressures enough to cause a problem. If you add one jacketed round every clip or two, it really shouldn't be an issue. If your leaded that bad after 20 rounds, you have bigger fish to fry than worrying about shooting that jacketed bullet,. You undoubtedly are shooting some pretty badly undersized bullet and need to corrrect that pronto.
 
Even if your bore is .355" your load will still lead if the throat is .359". Many 9mm chambers have throats as large as .359" and bores anywhere from .355" to .357". Buy bullets appropriately sized to the throat, not the bore. The throat is always the same or larger than the bore. It is in the throat where gas cutting begins. You need to seal the throat first. Sealing the throat will automatically seal the bore.

12 BHN is fine. I shoot those all the time in my 9. Elmer Keith developed the .44 magnum using 11 BHN alloy.
 
Thanks for the info. Walkalong. I am going to order some bullets and work up a load with titegroup. I will try to find a slightly cooler powder and work up a load and post how they work::)
 
MB 125gr SmallBall over 6.0 Blue Dot was my go to load in the 995TS. Clean. no leading, 1-1.25" @ 50y with the irons
 
Why not just order a plated bullet? Little bro has a 995 and we've run lots of berry's 124gr hollowpoints through it with no problems at all. 4.2 grains of 231 almost sounds like a 22, and you can put them all through the same hole @ 25 yards.
 
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