hi power rifle damage?

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bullseyebob47

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will going to the range and shooting 40 rounds through a remington 700 in .270 win and a cva .30-06 or .308 damage the barrel? i say shooting it fairly quickly.

my brother has the 700 in .270 and won't shoot more than 2 or 3 shots before putting it up for a half hour.

i want a cva break action in 30-06 or .308 but only if i can shoot a lot at the range. like i say, 40 rounds one after the other. are those rifles really not made for that? i wouldn't mind trying some steel case also.
 
bullseyebob47 wrote:
i say shooting it fairly quickly.

What do you mean by "fairly quickly"? I mean are you talking about putting all 40 rounds downrange in 7 minutes like a World War I infantryman defending his trench, or are you talking about 70 minutes?

The physical reality is that heat accelerates wear. A barrel at 70 degrees will experience less wear from having to swage a bullet into the rifling than it will at 170 degrees or 270 degrees (and when we talk temperatures we're talking the temperature on the surface of the rifling lands when exposed to the hot propellant gasses, not the temperature of the exterior surface of the barrel).

To absolutely minimize wear on your barrel, you would shoot the rifle and then let the interior of the barrel cool down to ambient temperature, but this would mean taking a thermometer to the range and seems inconsistent with what you go to the range to do. Barrels are wear items and they will eventually wear out no matter how much time you put between rounds. If you took some measurements of the temperature of the barrel after shooting various strings and determined about how long you were willing to wait between shots, it's simply a matter of computation to determing an optimal time between shots to balance the experience of shooting against a rate of wear you are willing to accept. But, imposing a rate of fire on yourself seems contrary to the whole reason for shooting in the first place.

Also, as the barrel warms up, it expands simultaneously in all three dimensions and for the high precision shooters this can affect impact the point of impact of each subsequent shot. I have read of some precision shooters pumping air through their barrels to keep them cool between shots, but this is an accuracy/precision consideration and not so much a question of wear.

What I do with my bolt gun is to shoot at the target, place the rifle on safe, assess my shot, work the action, collect my spent case, reacquire my sight picture, take the rifle off safe, aim and fire again. That "feels" right and results in a rate of fire of about one round per 40-45 seconds. That would translate into 40 rounds in about 25-30 minutes.
 
You'll need to spread out your shots to keep the barrel cool. Either shoot 5 shots and take a 5 minute break to look at the target or spread your shots out a minute apart or so. You should be able to hold your hand around the middle of the barrel. If it's uncomfortably hot then you need to let it cool.

Some guns will change there point of aim quite a bit as the barrel gets hot as well. If you want to be able to make the lead fly all day get a lower power cartridge like a 300 blackout or 357 magnum if they make that in the cva. A lot cheaper shooting too!
 
Rapid fire from an autoloader or automatic is different than a quick string of shots from a break action. I also think you have nothing to worry about shooting 40 rounds in a row.
 
Unless you're planning on shooting more than 5,000 rounds through the gun during it's lifetime, I wouldn't worry about how quickly you put rounds through the tube. That seems to be the point where the rifling degrades enough to start to affect accuracy. Maybe you get 7,000 rounds out of it if you let it cool 5 minutes between each shot, doesn't really seem worth it to me.
 
bullseyebob47 wrote:
i wouldn't mind trying some steel case also.

Keep in mind that steel case ammunition has no effect on how fast the bore of the rifle wears. What impacts the wear of the bore is not the material used in the construction of the case, but the material used in the construction of the bullet.

Most domestic and some foreign commercial factory rifle ammunition uses a bullet with a lead core inside of a formed jacket made of a copper alloy. It is the comparatively soft copper alloy jacket that engages the rifling. This results in a positive gas seal as well as limited wear on the barrel.

Many foreign brands of ammunition sell cartridges that are based on their current military production and use steel cases as well as co-called "bi-metal" bullets. The exterior of the "bi-metal" bullet is substantially harder than the more familiar copper alloy and can greatly accelerate barrel wear. In my opinion, if you are concerned about the tiny amount of additional wear from firing a hot barrel you should stay away from any ammunition that does not use bullets with a gilding metal jacket.

This is a link to a test of such ammunition. Please read the entire article and note that while it is entitled "Brass versus Steel Case", the body of the article more precisely describes the effect of "bi-metal" bullets on barrel erosion. http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/brass-vs-steel-cased-ammo/
 
If the barrel is too hot to touch, it is time to take a break. The damage isn't immediate, but you'll shorten the barrels life. A 308 should be good for at least 5,000-10,000 rounds of match grade accuracy. It'll be hunting accurate for double that. But getting it too hot could reduce that dramatically.

It really depends on the air temp too. Most of the year I can shoot 3-5 rounds within a minute or less and the barrel is cool enough to do it again within 5 minutes or so. During the heat of summer it takes a lot longer. On days when I didn't have the time to wait I've kept the truck running with the AC on high. I'd place the rifle inside for a few minutes while shooting a 22 between strings.
 
The trick is to run multiple rifles, i like to switch off from ar rifles to cowboy assault rifles (levergun) to bolt guns in any given range situation. Its fun to blast away with the 44 Rossi lever for a mag, then pick up the ar for a mag, then the 30-06 for an offhand group. I usually stop and reload them all and then do it again. Gives some time between groups, and you don't sit around bored waiting for a gun to cool off. But with a single shot you'd be hard pressed to shoot it fast enough to hurt the barrel and actually be hitting targets.
 
I don't think you could work that bolt fast enough or reload fast enough to damage that barrel with just 40 rounds
 
Just generalizing: I'll take a break from shooting when the barrel is uncomfortably hot to touch. Through the years I have rarely done more than five shots without taking a cool-down break, whether at the bench rest or when playing with prairie dogs.

As example, over some 35 years I put around 4,000 rounds through my pet '06. Maybe one-third were plinker loads and the rest were max loads. The last time I shot it at 100 yards I put three bullets into an 0.4 MOA group.

Too-rapid firing over a lengthy period will accelerate burning of the leade, that first 1/4 to 1/2 of an inch of the barrel in front of the chamber. A gunsmith can cut more thread and a new shoulder and set the barrel back so the new leade is unburned. (Or replace the barrel, of course.)

That's for centerfire. I don't think that anything would hurt a .22 rimfire. :)
 
will going to the range and shooting 40 rounds through a remington 700 in .270 win and a cva .30-06 or .308 damage the barrel? i say shooting it fairly quickly.

my brother has the 700 in .270 and won't shoot more than 2 or 3 shots before putting it up for a half hour.

i want a cva break action in 30-06 or .308 but only if i can shoot a lot at the range. like i say, 40 rounds one after the other. are those rifles really not made for that? i wouldn't mind trying some steel case also.

Your brother is either overly paranoid, or, more likely, has a gun with questionable bedding or metallurgy and as his barrel heats up it gets un-accurate (starts walking off the target or 'whipping' and placing shots randomly around the paper). Many hunting rifles with thin profile barrels are comfortable to carry around for a day in the woods, lightweight, but they suck for target shooting as you DO need to wait for them to cool off between strings, or the shots will start walking right off the paper. I had an old Weatherby that was like that. I could take 2 or 3 shots, but then I DID have to let it cool back down to ambient temp or I'd just be wasting ammunition. But, it was a hunting rifle, and that didn't matter for hunting.

My target rifles have thicker barrels and are either freefloated or have good bedding. They don't "walk" off the target when they get hot.

In either case, you'll be fine. There's a massive difference between shooting a full auto at cyclic rate for a couple of mags, than there is working a bolt action rifle 40 rounds. You aren't going to hurt the gun. You might find that your gun changes point of impact as it warms up, if it's a lightweight hunting barrel, or isn't bedded properly. No biggie. If that happens you'll learn to take breaks from shooting too.

There's thousands of guys who shoot competitions with magnum action rifles, most of which consist of 20 round strings over 20 minutes (max) time. Many times you're done in half that time, if the wind is calm, averaging a round downrange every 20-30 seconds. Doesn't hurt the barrel one bit.
 
I was always taught to not let the barrel get too hot to touch for best throat life and I still follow that as I have patience and respect for my rifles.

I was curious if there is a recommended max barrel temperature before wear begins to accelerate so I did some searching and could not really find anything except to a reference to the field manual for an M14. It gives the following recommendation.

Rates of fire. The following rates of fire can be maintained without danger to firer or damage to the weapon. This is of course specific to an m14 in 308 and I don't know if there standards for not damaging the rifle mean "didn't erode the throat for 5000 rounds", or if it means "did't set the handguards on fire"

semiautomatic
1 minute = 40 rounds
2 minutes = 40 rounds per minute
5 minutes = 30 rounds per minute
10 minutes = 20 rounds per minute
15 minutes = 20 rounds per minute
20 minutes = 20 rounds per minute
30 minutes or more = 15 rounds

automatic

1 minute = 60 rounds
2 minutes = 50 rounds per minute
5 minutes = 40 rounds per minute
10 minutes = 30 rounds per minute
15 minutes = 30 rounds per minute
20 minutes = 25 rounds per minute
30 minutes or more = 20 rounds

https://archive.org/details/FM23-8
 
I'll stand by my assertion that 40 rounds fired quickly in a .308 would net no damage.
I didn't unequivocally state that it would, nor did I mean to give that impression. I stated that heat was the issue - manage throat/bore temps and you will manage your barrel life. In very underbore chamberings, lots of rounds fired in very rapid succession may never cause excessive bore temps whereas very overbore chamberings might need significant temperature management.

In the case of the OP, I'm not certain that you can work the CVA break action from the bench fast enough to really damage the bore by shooting quickly. I also expect that the accuracy of the gun will be influenced more by other factors than barrel heating.
 
I didn't unequivocally state that it would, nor did I mean to give that impression. I stated that heat was the issue - manage throat/bore temps and you will manage your barrel life. In very underbore chamberings, lots of rounds fired in very rapid succession may never cause excessive bore temps whereas very overbore chamberings might need significant temperature management.

In the case of the OP, I'm not certain that you can work the CVA break action from the bench fast enough to really damage the bore by shooting quickly. I also expect that the accuracy of the gun will be influenced more by other factors than barrel heating.

Fair enough, my response involved the parameters of his post. I never doubted a heated barrel would wear faster.

I'm more interested in why he finds the need to shoot that rifle that fast, seems like trying to race in a Prius.
 
I didn't unequivocally state that it would, nor did I mean to give that impression. I stated that heat was the issue - manage throat/bore temps and you will manage your barrel life. In very underbore chamberings, lots of rounds fired in very rapid succession may never cause excessive bore temps whereas very overbore chamberings might need significant temperature management.

In the case of the OP, I'm not certain that you can work the CVA break action from the bench fast enough to really damage the bore by shooting quickly. I also expect that the accuracy of the gun will be influenced more by other factors than barrel heating.

I agree. Even in the best case (2-3 rounds, fully cooled) you are only going to slightly delay the inevitable. You aren't going to squeeze 10,000 rounds out of a 300 win mag or 7mm mag by being conscientious of temperatures. You might extend the life a smidge, but not by any meaningful amount. (On the flip side most dudes are far more likely to *damage* a barrel by cleaning it incorrectly, e.g. from the muzzle end, or with a cheap 3 part rod or whatever).

You are absolutely correct in that overbore is going to wear the barrel out faster but I seriously doubt one is going to extend barrel life in any meaningful way by firing 3 shot groups vs. 10 shot groups. (would be an expensive and rather tedious study with a comparator gauge to figure out).

Instead overbore wears barrels faster because of longer sustained high pressures. You're pushing the living snot out of that projectile (e.g. 22-250). My belief concurs with yours - on a bolt or semi-auto gun you aren't going to work it fast enough to contribute meaningfully to the rate of throat erosion. Heat has much less to do with this than the pressure and friction of the projectile. That section of the barrel is subjected repeatedly to the absolute highest pressures and friction factors as the bullet is cut in to by the rifling and the projectile shapes itself to fit the barrel.

This is why you see even well-treated 22-250's and belted 300 Win Mag wear out FAR more rapidly than a 223 or 308 or 30-06 barrel. I considered myself fortunate I got about 2k rounds out of my last 300 win mag barrel before I had Kreiger cut me another. I quit shooting my laser-accurate 22-250 for pleasure and reserved it for purely for hunting use only after about 1500 rounds.

I was always taught to not let the barrel get too hot to touch for best throat life and I still follow that as I have patience and respect for my rifles.

When you fire a round the pressure and heat is truly immense. Feeling whether the barrel is "hot on the hands" isn't a good gauge to go by. The steel has to exceed several hundreds of degrees (500+ depends on alloy) to start the annealing process again which will change it's strength. It'll be glowing in a dim light at that point, and would melt the skin right off your fingers. The heat in the chamber (which isn't soaked and removed by the brass itself) is VERY rapidly transferred through the awesome metal conductor that is the barrel.

Throat erosion on full auto fire is a big concern, which is why most military rifles switched to chrome lined bores. More durable. Prior to that, on sustained cyclic fire, certain weapons would wear out in 1,000 or 2,000 rounds (earlier than chrome lined, there were water cooled machineguns, others had air-cooled fins, such as the MG-37, Soviet DSHK, etc). But you're talking about sustained fire, with no chance for the barrel to "heat soak" and spread the heat out. That doesn't take long, as steel is a reasonably a good conductor of heat.

I would argue that the full auto throat erosion issue has much less to do with sustained fire than changing the steel itself. When you heat a steel barrel above a certain temperature and then allow it to cool slowly, you anneal the barrel. You literally make the steel softer. In a barrel with a hot core and cool outside this will soften the inside (rifling) faster than the outside. Subsequent rounds will burn through the rifling even more than before, because the steel has been softened through the annealing process.

Chrome moly has FAR higher annealing temperatures than carbon steel does. You can heat it 3x as much or more without making it "soft" and more prone to wear. Thus full auto guns last longer - the barrel lining doesn't become soft with repeated high temps (barrel core 700F+) and slow cooling.

You *can* get a semi-auto to that type of temperature but - speaking from my own personal experience - my trigger finger generally wears out and I can't pull it anymore well before the barrel gets that hot. (I did manage to get AK-47 grips to smoulder once but that was on a real hot day after 3 successive 75 round drums.)

You are *not* going to get a bolt action or break open action that hot. I don't care how fast you shoot it.

Bottom line, to damage the steel itself and promote faster throat erosion, you have to get a barrel up to annealing temps. That way the pressure and friction wear are accelerated.


I was curious if there is a recommended max barrel temperature before wear begins to accelerate so I did some searching and could not really find anything except to a reference to the field manual for an M14. It gives the following recommendation.

Rates of fire. The following rates of fire can be maintained without danger to firer or damage to the weapon. This is of course specific to an m14 in 308 and I don't know if there standards for not damaging the rifle mean "didn't erode the throat for 5000 rounds", or if it means "did't set the handguards on fire"

That's the max rates of fire for "I'm going to become hot enough to start cooking off my own rounds and run away on you" table. :)
 
I did extensive testing back in early 2002 time frame. I knew from experience looking at gun barrels with a nice Olympus bore scope that the tool marks in a new 30 cal barrel will be gone in 150 rounds and I also knew 30 cal ammunition acceptance barrels lasted 15,000 to 17,000 rounds.

Having a background in the weapons testing business I have run upwards of 10,000 a day for fourteen continuous days testing them from 200 to 800 meters every 1200 rounds. My biggest day at Aberdeen Proving Ground was $63,000.00 worth of ammo shot up and gun went down. I was going to $100,000.00 that day but lost four hours on a breakdown.

The main difference being rate of fire and rate of cleaning. Ammunition acceptance barrels are subjected betweem two to five sighter shots and then loaded 5 rounds in mag and gunner holds 5 rounds in other hand and cycles 10 rounds through the fixture in about 15 seconds. The big difference after this test the rifle was not fired again until it was thoroughly cleaned so the carbon never got cold the barrel and was never fired a follow on test without cleaning.

I had bought a new Rem 700 sporter primarily for the action and I had a theory and took 50 new LC Match rounds and fired them 12 and clean, 12 and clean, 12 and clean and 14 and clean. I checked for throat wear with erosion gage every 50 rounds and also inspected throat for wear.

I reloaded those 50 rounds immediately after shooting them so they were loaded over and over. In the above shoot and clean scenario I managed to prolong the tool marks in the throat much longer and they were finally gone at 600 rounds, or 4 times the normal number of rounds that showed much more wear in 150 rounds.

At 600 rounds I started doing 22 round strings at one shot per minute which is close as to how sniper rifles are evaluated

I recorded barrel temps and got about 118 degrees. I then cleaned and shot the next string at 30 second intervals and barrel temp went to about 130 degrees.


Another string rounds were fired at 15 second intervals and barrels got to around 140 degrees. In the previous tests the erosion gage moved very slightly but after that test with barrel getting that much hotter the gage showed much more movement. I finally pulled the barrel at about 800 rounds and to look at it without a borescope it is perfect but a close looks shows throat wear had really started.

Bottom line here guys is to clean about every 12 rounds with barrel still warm and never let a barrel cool off and remain fouled and shoot it again unless it has been cleaned.

As well ball propellants are known to be much more erosive on gun barrels so I run stick propellants.

Also as a rule hammer forged barrels will drop dead quicker than cut rifled barrels and you will seen generation at the muzzle with metal flaking away. I have lost a new hammer forged barrel at 250 rounds.

The 30 cal muzzle gages should be beneficial to let you know when things are going South.
 
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You are certainly welcome to your opinion but your taxes paid me to conduct professional testing of small arms and ammunition at Aberdeen Proving Ground and I was just giving you guys the benefit of my experience as a professional in the weapons testing and evaluation arena. You are welcome to ignore my experience you paid me to gain.

You have to be a Certified Small Arms and Ammunition Test Director by Aberdeen Proving Ground to conduct government small arms testing and as I understand it, only about 75 have been so certified since it was started in 1946 and to my knowledge there are only three of us retired still alive and ten still working.

I conducted the testing on the M16A1E1 for the Marine Corps in 1980/81 which was adopted as the M16A2 and I can tell you the ammo loaded with ball propellant by LC took the barrels out shortly after 4800 rounds and the same bullets loaded by FN in Belgium took the barrels to 12,000 rounds and were still in spec.That was a three gun run to 12,000 rounds each and that test shot up 244,000 rounds.

As well I hold a High Master Rating in HighPower Rifle and a Master Rating in Smallbore Prone have won three National Trophies at Camp Perry and started shooting competition in 1957 so as Rambo said, "I've fired a few shots."
 
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Define "took the barrel out." It should relate to some kind of measurable number. I ask because we are discussing more than one standard - match grade accuracy, government acceptance accuracy, and a third one being ignored - field accuracy for combat.

Goes to a thread that has been running for a long time on another forum posted by the owner of a full auto rental range in Vegas, who has guns firing over 100,000 rounds a year. The barrels are still functional - in as much as they direct a bullet down range at a human sized target, and mostly for entertainment purposes. His staff is largely veterans and it's been discussed that military standards for an issued weapon used in the field can be as inaccurate as 6-8 MOA. That's obviously not target or acceptance shooting - but it is real world experience.

Many 3Gun shooters say the same - tens of thousands of rounds just in practicing every year, on man sized targets. Which goes to defining what we are talking about. A loss of .25 MOA could be a killer for a target rifle - and yet the measurable accuracy could still be less than 1 MOA overall which is highly desireable in a hunting rifle, and more than sufficient for acceptance in the military at 2 MOA. I also understand that the military spec on acceptance includes ten shot groups. We'd be interested to hear more about how that is conducted.

The idea that a rifle barrel could be "shot out" in less than 5,000 or even 3,000 rounds in competition has been mentioned before, but how it relates to it's place in long term, higher round count use is frequently left out. As one anecdotal story, when I went to Basic I was issued a GM Hydramatic M16, it had shot tens of thousands of rounds and was well used. And I fired Expert with it, implying it was still capable of at least 2 MOA. That is not uncommon even today - and creates a lot of curiousity about what exactly constitutes "shot out" vs "effective for combat use."
 
I think Bart considers a target rifle barrel "shot out" when the average group size has increased by 50%. Your half minute rifle shooting 3/4.

Pretty much all an infantry rifle has to do is to stabilize the bullet so it flies to normal ranges.
 
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