Hidden 51% Sign in Texas

[doc540]

I looked closely when we entered a Texas restaurant and bar, but saw no signs.

On the way out I spotted them posted low and behind the front hostess counter.



Not sure if this meets the requirements, but what do you think?

 

[Tinker]

Can you enlighten me as to what a "51%" sign represents?

Something to do with gun owners? Simple majority?

 

[doc540]

Businesses that earn 51% of their income from liquor sales have to post a sign noting that.

No concealed carry (even with a license) is permitted on the premises.

 

[JohnKSa]

If they're not visible to ordinary observation at all entry points then I believe you could make a good case for not having been given adequate notice.

 

[JRH6856]

According to GC §411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES,
...
(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give
notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person
licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises.
The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least
one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed
in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in
a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

Hard to tell in the photo if the numbers are red, but those signs do not appear to be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.

AFAIK, TABC makes the determination and issues the appropriate license. It should also be posted prominently. A RED license means TABC considers the establishment 51%, and the 51% sign must be posted as stated above. A BLUE license, then it is not 51% and you can legally carry even if the 51% sign is posted (unless a 30.06 sign is also posted, then you can't). The law requires CHL holders to comply with the fact of 51%, not the sign. The license will tell you the fact.

 

[The Sarge]

Not posted per code. I would let the owner know myself. Maybe prevent an issue in the future for a fellow CCW.

 

[bikemutt]

Does this apply to the bar area or the entire restaurant?

In WA the rule is no carry in any area of the restaurant where you must be 21 or older to be seated, essentially the bar or lounge.

 

[The Sarge]

The entire establishment.

 

[Paris]

Yikes. That's not good at all. I would definitely let them know.

 

[Owen Sparks]

That is a good place to hide it, I never would have thought to look down there.

 

[Rail Driver]

That is a good place to hide it, I never would have thought to look down there.

Me either. Looks like a candidate for an entrapment charge/lawsuit in the event of someone missing the sign and then later being charged with a violation.

 

[JohnnyK]

I HATE those signs... and the ones prohibiting ccw at health care facility... what makes hospital or clinic so safe that I shouldn't carry my Glock?

 

[Owen Sparks]

I would go back (unarmed of course) and have a talk with the manager. I would politely ask him to step out front to look at something and then point out that there is no way you can see that sign as you enter. Tell him that the last time you were here it caused you to unknowingly violate the law. Can you please raise it up to avoid this problem in the future?

 

[230therapy]

What happened to the part of the law that dictated placement? I thought they had a regulation that said it had to be at Y height within X feet of all entrances.

 

[230RN]

Maybe it was a slow bar day and the alcohol income was less than 51%, so the owner moved the sign out of the way.

What if the bar income yesterday was $5,314.25 with total receipts of $10,423.65?

Some of these laws are as ridiculous as the above.

What, do they do an audit every day? Week? Month?


Sheesh.

Terry, 230RN

 

[The Sarge]

It has to be in plain view.

 

[230RN]

Well, I was also thinking that maybe the owner/barkeep actually didn't care about permitees carrying in his establishment and this was his way of kind of complying "without enthusiasm." And even "plain view" is subject to "interpretation." After all, If I were drunk and lying on the floor, that sign would be in plain view, n'est-ce pas? And OP saw it on the way out... so obviously it was in plain view. He just didnt notice it at first, despite his care in looking for one.



I doubt that sign was put up that way out of ignorance.

I was also going to suggest that if that were the case, maybe we'd all be better off if we kept our respective pieholes shut about it, lest we be perceived as pieholes or other holes by the management and other patrons.

But that's too rough a way to put it for this board, I'm sure.


Terry, 230RN

 

[JohnKSa]

Well, I was also thinking that maybe the owner/barkeep actually didn't care about permitees carrying in his establishment and this was his way of kind of complying "without enthusiasm."

My understanding is that posting the 51% sign is not optional; a compliant sign must be posted if the establishment meets the criteria for the sign.

 

[medalguy]

Can you please raise it up to avoid this problem in the future?

How about just taking it down entirely and put it where it belongs, in the dumpster?

 

[TexasRifleman]

What, do they do an audit every day? Week? Month?

Once a year in Texas, when they renew their liquor license. If the previous year was over 51% alcohol sales, they are a "bar" for the next year. If it drops below 51% they are a "restaurant that serves alcohol".

I doubt that sign was put up that way out of ignorance.

Actually it probably was put up that way out of ignorance. I've seen them in some dumb places before. Most bar owners just stick them anywhere without much thought put into it unfortunately. They don't realize what predicament they may be putting their customers in. That sign is just one of several that the Alcohol Control Board forces them to hang.

My understanding is that posting the 51% sign is not optional

That's correct, it is required as part of the liquor license. Technically an establishment could lose their license to sell alcohol if they don't put up that and several other signs, and put them up properly. In real life though most of the time the inspector just says "Hey, you need to move that sign up front" and that's the end of it.

 

[Owen Sparks]

You would think that this sort of restriction would only apply to customers who were actually drinking. Most places that sell alcohol and food sell most of the alcohol at night, not to the lunch crowd.

 

[TexasRifleman]

You would think that this sort of restriction would only apply to customers who were actually drinking. Most places that sell alcohol and food sell most of the alcohol at night, not to the lunch crowd.

Well this sign and the restriction are not just aimed at the gun folks. Bars have different tax structures, operating hour limits, age limits etc than restaurants do.

Once a business makes 51% of it's money from alcohol it's a bar so everything about their business changes vs being a restaurant that happens to sell booze.

 

[Bartholomew Roberts]

An important point, Section 46.035 of the Texas Penal Code says:

"(b) A license holder commits an offense if the license holder intentionally, knowingly, or recklessly carries a handgun under the authority of Subchapter H, Chapter 411, Government Code, regardless of whether the handgun is concealed, on or about the license holder's person:

(1) on the premises of a business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, if the business derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption, as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code;"

So if a reasonable person would have realized that the place they were carrying in derived 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, you can still be convicted of a crime, even if the 51% sign was not posted.

So if you are in the local watering hole and the only thing on the menu is beer and tequila and a bowl of peanuts on the bar, don't assume you are legal just because you don't see a 51% sign.

 

[JohnKSa]

So if a reasonable person would have realized that the place they were carrying in derived 51% or more of its income from the sale or service of alcoholic beverages, you can still be convicted of a crime, even if the 51% sign was not posted.

So if you are in the local watering hole and the only thing on the menu is beer and tequila and a bowl of peanuts on the bar, don't assume you are legal just because you don't see a 51% sign.

You can be arrested and charged, but you won't be convicted.

You have to keep reading down the page...

Sec. 46.035.

(k) It is a defense to prosecution under Subsection (b)(1) that the actor was not given effective notice under Section 411.204, Government Code.​

Below is 411.204.

Basically it comes down to: No Sign, No Crime.

Sec. 411.204. NOTICE REQUIRED ON CERTAIN PREMISES.

(a) A business that has a permit or license issued under Chapter 25, 28, 32, 69, or 74, Alcoholic Beverage Code, and that derives 51 percent or more of its income from the sale of alcoholic beverages for on-premises consumption as determined by the Texas Alcoholic Beverage Commission under Section 104.06, Alcoholic Beverage Code, shall prominently display at each entrance to the business premises a sign that complies with the requirements of Subsection (c).

...

(c) The sign required under Subsections (a) and (b) must give notice in both English and Spanish that it is unlawful for a person licensed under this subchapter to carry a handgun on the premises. The sign must appear in contrasting colors with block letters at least one inch in height and must include on its face the number "51" printed in solid red at least five inches in height. The sign shall be displayed in a conspicuous manner clearly visible to the public.​

 

[langenc]

Id suggest you tell him that you will take your $$$ elsewhere and encourage all your fellow gun club members to do the same.