M14/11B
Member
I'm going to buy a new rifle soon. Thinking lever 45-70, .308, or .44 MAG.
convince me. Had a .30-30, but didn't like it.
M14
convince me. Had a .30-30, but didn't like it.
M14
High powered rifle, which one?
- Thread starter M14/11B
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IndianaBoy
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What do you want to do with it?
M14/11B
Member
General use. Some hunting, and home defense use, but I want it to reach
out if necessary with hard hits. Very familiar with .308(M14), dislike .223
and .30-30 tho'.
M14
out if necessary with hard hits. Very familiar with .308(M14), dislike .223
and .30-30 tho'.
M14
I'm new to the 45-70 (bought my son a Henry in that caliber for his birthday), but I'll have to say that it's a magnificent round. It's a brute to shoot, but in a wonderful kind of way (hard to explain). With the right loads, you can take down any N. American game with it from whitetail through grizzly.
The only disadvantage (if you can call it that) is that the range is a bit limited because the bullet is very large and heavy. Some of the hotter loads from Buffalo Bore will extend the range and have it shoot a bit flatter, but the recoil with those loads is stout. From a practical standpoint, you can take down game from 100-150 yds. without any drop and then need some holdover out to 300 yds. The bullet size and energy at those greater distances will still take down game, but you will need to compensate for the drop a bit. It's not an open plains, 600-yd+ round, but I never hunt at those distances anyway.
I can't vouch for the 45-70 as a defense round, but I'm sure it would make a mess of any intruder. The lever actions chambered for 45-70 mostly are carbines, so maneuverability in tight spaces is excellent.
The only disadvantage (if you can call it that) is that the range is a bit limited because the bullet is very large and heavy. Some of the hotter loads from Buffalo Bore will extend the range and have it shoot a bit flatter, but the recoil with those loads is stout. From a practical standpoint, you can take down game from 100-150 yds. without any drop and then need some holdover out to 300 yds. The bullet size and energy at those greater distances will still take down game, but you will need to compensate for the drop a bit. It's not an open plains, 600-yd+ round, but I never hunt at those distances anyway.
I can't vouch for the 45-70 as a defense round, but I'm sure it would make a mess of any intruder. The lever actions chambered for 45-70 mostly are carbines, so maneuverability in tight spaces is excellent.
M14/11B said:
eh...you do understand that "reach out with hard hits" and "home defense" are difficult to balance?
A rifle that can deliver thump at range is going to be a strong penetrator - good for hunting, but makes over-penetration a real issue in a HD scenario.
My recommendation would be a .357mag lever rifle.
IndianaBoy
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Yes it will be a little bit difficult to reconcile a hunting rifle with good punch and also a home defense rifle.
The 357 levergun would be a pretty darn good option. It won't give you the long range trajectory of a 308 but most hunting is accomplished at 100 yards or less unless you are in the mountains or the plains.
Do you dislike the AR-15 platform or just the 223 cartridge? You could go with something like the 6.8 SPC which is roughly analogous to a 270 winchester (probably a little slower), out of an AR-15.
Ruger sells the Mini-Thirty which is a 7.62x39 but I have never shot one. The Ruger generally gets good marks for reliability.
The 357 levergun would be a pretty darn good option. It won't give you the long range trajectory of a 308 but most hunting is accomplished at 100 yards or less unless you are in the mountains or the plains.
Do you dislike the AR-15 platform or just the 223 cartridge? You could go with something like the 6.8 SPC which is roughly analogous to a 270 winchester (probably a little slower), out of an AR-15.
Ruger sells the Mini-Thirty which is a 7.62x39 but I have never shot one. The Ruger generally gets good marks for reliability.
M14/11B
Member
Already have a .357 lever Marlin, pre Remington, and love it. I want something with more power at distances. I know the .45-70 drops a
lot at distances, but it is a tried and true round with newer style ammo.
My son has a .308 Browning lever, which is quite nice. Other suggestions
welcome too.
M14
lot at distances, but it is a tried and true round with newer style ammo.
My son has a .308 Browning lever, which is quite nice. Other suggestions
welcome too.
M14
M14/11B;
As Mr. Borland states, you have pretty much mutually exclusive goals. Yes, tailoring ammunition can mitigate some of the dichotomy, but it can also only go so far in doing that. Now if you had stated that you live in a rural area and the nearest neighbor is a mile away?
Since you know and apparently like the .308, that's probably where you should be with the rifle. Then, a Remington home defense 12 gauge. Unlike the .308, the shotgun rounds can be tailored to the probable engagement environment. Also, should you want to hunt birds, you can buy a longer barrel that accepts chokes and go do that. The Remmie HD isn't an expensive gun. Third, get a .22 pistol for practice, small game, and possibly mercy killing of a downed big game animal. Though that may depend on the laws in your state. But it's never a bad thing to have a .22lr pistol of one sort or another.
A further bit of advice would be to arrange your priorities in order of needs, not wants. If home defense is number one, get the shotgun first. Honestly, getting the shottie first shouldn't delay the rifle any too long. It's early in the year, hunting season isn't for six months or more, plenty of time to save & get the rifle a bit later.
900F
As Mr. Borland states, you have pretty much mutually exclusive goals. Yes, tailoring ammunition can mitigate some of the dichotomy, but it can also only go so far in doing that. Now if you had stated that you live in a rural area and the nearest neighbor is a mile away?
Since you know and apparently like the .308, that's probably where you should be with the rifle. Then, a Remington home defense 12 gauge. Unlike the .308, the shotgun rounds can be tailored to the probable engagement environment. Also, should you want to hunt birds, you can buy a longer barrel that accepts chokes and go do that. The Remmie HD isn't an expensive gun. Third, get a .22 pistol for practice, small game, and possibly mercy killing of a downed big game animal. Though that may depend on the laws in your state. But it's never a bad thing to have a .22lr pistol of one sort or another.
A further bit of advice would be to arrange your priorities in order of needs, not wants. If home defense is number one, get the shotgun first. Honestly, getting the shottie first shouldn't delay the rifle any too long. It's early in the year, hunting season isn't for six months or more, plenty of time to save & get the rifle a bit later.
900F
To each his own, but the levers I have are very accurate. Also, I don't mind carrying a lighter rifle in the field.
As for the ammo, the Hornady LeverRevolution line opened up a whole new set of possibilities for bullet design (in addition to the round nose, JHP's, etc.)notaglockfanboy
Member
That's not true at all. Just because you cannot shoot a levergun accurately, that don't make all of them inaccurate, nor are they limited to round nose or soft point bullets. Check out Hornady Lever Evolution rounds, which I will say extend the range of the leverguns significantly.
Sunray
Member
UN of M14/11B and "very familiar with .308(M14)", but you haven't thought of an M1A?
"...home defense use..." The only time any rifle would be used is if you live way out in the boonies and the natives go on the war path. Otherwise, there's far too much penetration and range with any rifle cartridge. Hit some thing or some body way down the street and you will be arrested, charged and convicted of reckless/careless/dangerous use of a firearm(don't know what that'd be Stateside) or manslaughter at the very least.
"...home defense use..." The only time any rifle would be used is if you live way out in the boonies and the natives go on the war path. Otherwise, there's far too much penetration and range with any rifle cartridge. Hit some thing or some body way down the street and you will be arrested, charged and convicted of reckless/careless/dangerous use of a firearm(don't know what that'd be Stateside) or manslaughter at the very least.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
Actually, some smaller rifle cartridges (most notably .223/5.56x45mm) with good JHP or SP are even less likely to overpenetrate most building materials than pistol rounds or 00 buckshot. My own HD long gun is a 16" .223 loaded with light 55gr softpoints or JHP.
.308 has about twice the energy and twice the bullet mass of .223, though (it's a full-power rifle round after all), so a .308 will be more prone to overpenetration than .223 will, all else being equal. I've read that some loads (TAP, VMAX?) penetrate surprisingly little, but still more than .223.
Going by the Box o'Truth tests, pretty much any .45-70 is going to vastly overpenetrate in an HD setting, and is going to be pretty awkward to shoot at in-home distances anyway.
If one doesn't like .223, I second the motion to get an 18" 12-gauge (.729 caliber, FWIW) as the HD long gun, perhaps using something like No. 4 buckshot for HD purposes and slugs on standby, and a .308- or .30-06-class rifle for distance shooting.
d2wing
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A .308 is the best choice in my opinion. It as not as likely to over penetrate with soft point bullets and will give more lethal wounds due to cavitation than the other rounds. And you have a much wider choice of bullets for different applications. For standoff range, accuracy at any range there are few rounds that compare to the .308. Also ammo is cheaper and lighter. With the box magazine the BLR makes a good rifle for long range bullets or short range defense rounds. In short the .308 is a real rifle round and by far the most capable.
M14/11B
Member
Thanks guys for all the input. The SD part is minimal-sorry if I over rated it in my posting. Want a long range hunting rifle with a wallop. Like any gun, it
could always be a SD gun if it needed to be. Yes I live in the sticks, too. No
AR's. I don't like .223 as I said, but I already have a mini-14.
.308 is great, but I really like the idea of a .45-70. I need to do some
ballistics research first. If anyone out there uses one on a regular basis,
talk to me about performance please. Thanks.
M14
could always be a SD gun if it needed to be. Yes I live in the sticks, too. No
AR's. I don't like .223 as I said, but I already have a mini-14.
.308 is great, but I really like the idea of a .45-70. I need to do some
ballistics research first. If anyone out there uses one on a regular basis,
talk to me about performance please. Thanks.
M14
I've put about 150 rounds through my son's Henry (no hunting, just target and zeroing) and will share what I know. No chono to verify, but the speed out of the barrel with the 325gr Hornady is ~2,000 fps and hits the mark at 100 yds. Anything between 50 to 150yds will be 1-3 inches above/below the zero, which is certainly "minute of deer" territory. I have the Leupold Ultimate Slam 3-9x mounted and it has a ballistic reticle that matches very well to the 45-70 out to 300 yds., so there shouldn't be much guesswork for holdover when you want to reach out further to hit game.
I haven't shot the Buffalo Bore loads yet, but you may find this ballistics chart for their 45-70's useful:
https://www.buffalobore.com/index.php?l=product_detail&p=383
Hope this is useful. Personally, I really like the 45-70 and will likely invest in more rifles of this caliber as well as reloading kits.
M14/11B;
Go to the JBM ballistics site, you can spend a whole lotta time in there doing ballistic calculation comparisons. But, what you get is hard data, not anecdotal information. Personally, I think the .308 is the more versatile round, but I also understand scratching the itch. Damm itches anyway, I got a safe full of itches.
Another place I'd suggest looking at is the official Tikka site. There you can view the entire range of product from them. Everything from wood/blue to composite long range hi-cap-mag .308's. And about anything in between.
900F
Go to the JBM ballistics site, you can spend a whole lotta time in there doing ballistic calculation comparisons. But, what you get is hard data, not anecdotal information. Personally, I think the .308 is the more versatile round, but I also understand scratching the itch. Damm itches anyway, I got a safe full of itches.
Another place I'd suggest looking at is the official Tikka site. There you can view the entire range of product from them. Everything from wood/blue to composite long range hi-cap-mag .308's. And about anything in between.
900F
I think you're asking for two rifles to be combined into one but there are compromises I guess. The Ruger 7.62 x 39 is essentially shooting the same round as the .30-30 you said you didn't like. You seem to want a higher powered rifle so IMO you should get an AR-10 in .308. It's a heavy hitter and will shoot way down range plus it's a semi-auto that can hold quite a few rounds. That's a good long distance rifle and a good HD rifle or the closest you can get to both IMO. But they are generally heavy which makes them not so great for HD and they aren't as accurate as a bolt action rifle for the same price. That's the general rule anyway. You pay for the semi-auto action rather than the accuracy. My experience is that they aren't as accurate as your average modern bolt gun but of course that can be changed. You can make one "very' accurate if you want to spend the money. You might find they weigh even more when they're accurate though.
IMO that .223 you don't like is the best choice for a HD rifle especially in an AR design. You don't want a heavy, bolt action varmint rifle in .223 of course. But you can get them light and they don't shoot so hard you have to worry about your neighbors a few miles down the road. They will shoot a long way of course but they lose energy quickly too. After about 700 yards they become a lot less lethal especially if they hit another house. Where a .308 might go right on in another house the .223 might not.
IMO that .223 you don't like is the best choice for a HD rifle especially in an AR design. You don't want a heavy, bolt action varmint rifle in .223 of course. But you can get them light and they don't shoot so hard you have to worry about your neighbors a few miles down the road. They will shoot a long way of course but they lose energy quickly too. After about 700 yards they become a lot less lethal especially if they hit another house. Where a .308 might go right on in another house the .223 might not.
PowerG
Member
Handgun (preferably) or short barrel shotgun for home defense. The penetration of rifle rounds capable of making long range shots on game is pretty dangerous in a house, and even the house next door.
For hunting whitetail sized game:
25/06
.270
.280
7mm-08
.308
30/06
(Not an exhaustive list, but you get the idea.)
Without a range in mind it's just spitballing to a great extent, but any of these calibers would put PBR's out past 200 yards, making such shots relatively easy assuming the shooter does their part. They are pretty much interchangeable for these ranges, and all have enough power to make even shots at less than optimum angles (with the right bullets, of course), and much longer ranges are easily attainable with sufficient practice. I would suggest a bolt action, the accuracy of the average off-the-shelf rifle of this type will be better as a rule, and they will have better triggers than any other action type. Magnum calibers not necessary, unless you just prefer them. Pistol calibers in rifles are OK if you can accept a more limited range. The 45/70 can be fired effectively at fairly significant range, however a good bit of practice will be necessary to realize the full potential.
All that said, most of my hunting for deer is done in very thick woods, think bow hunting with a rifle. The process of getting close without being detected is much more appealing to me than sniping at them, 75 yards is a long shot where I do most of my hunting. For this type of hunting I use a Marlin 1895 45/70, open sights, it's really excellent for these type conditions. A scoped bolt action would work, but the lever gun is handy, quick, and great for shots on moving game (and doesn't destroy meat unnecessarily). Just to point out that no blanket solution would cover every problem.
For hunting whitetail sized game:
25/06
.270
.280
7mm-08
.308
30/06
(Not an exhaustive list, but you get the idea.)
Without a range in mind it's just spitballing to a great extent, but any of these calibers would put PBR's out past 200 yards, making such shots relatively easy assuming the shooter does their part. They are pretty much interchangeable for these ranges, and all have enough power to make even shots at less than optimum angles (with the right bullets, of course), and much longer ranges are easily attainable with sufficient practice. I would suggest a bolt action, the accuracy of the average off-the-shelf rifle of this type will be better as a rule, and they will have better triggers than any other action type. Magnum calibers not necessary, unless you just prefer them. Pistol calibers in rifles are OK if you can accept a more limited range. The 45/70 can be fired effectively at fairly significant range, however a good bit of practice will be necessary to realize the full potential.
All that said, most of my hunting for deer is done in very thick woods, think bow hunting with a rifle. The process of getting close without being detected is much more appealing to me than sniping at them, 75 yards is a long shot where I do most of my hunting. For this type of hunting I use a Marlin 1895 45/70, open sights, it's really excellent for these type conditions. A scoped bolt action would work, but the lever gun is handy, quick, and great for shots on moving game (and doesn't destroy meat unnecessarily). Just to point out that no blanket solution would cover every problem.
Actually it's becoming conventional wisdom that a .223 penetrates less than most handguns and some shotgun pellets (from a 00 buck load for example). What you said was what everyone thought until not too long ago but the tumbling of the .223 when it hits an object keeps it from penetrating as much as other bullets. Plus you can get frangible bullets which don't go through walls much at all. And a lot of .223 fragments big time and will penetrate less than pistol rounds of shotgun pellets.
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