High Primers After Firing

[smovlov]

I loaded some 223 and fired them this weekend. Mixed brass, 55gr FMJ BT, CCI 41, and 23.0gr to 25.0gr of H335 going up in .4gr increments. I got high primers on some of the loads at each step. I did some reading and found that setting up the die without a cartridge gauge might do this. I set it up as per LEE instructions meaning the die is touching the shell plate. I checked my resized cases with a homemade comparator and it seemed to be within .005 from a factory round. I'm about to just buy a case gauge and start from there. The only reason I didn't is I couldn't find one. Everyone is out of stock. Fired from a new Mini 14.

Is this anything to be concerned about? Any ideas?

 

[Rushthezeppelin]

Check ebay, they have Dillon headspace gages for $30 with free shipping, I just bought mine the other day and should be getting it in sometime in the middle of the week (along with all the rest of the stuff I need to start loading 223).

 

[warhwkbb]

At a COAL of 2.250, you should be in the sweet spot for H335. It sounds like you may have excessive head-space. A Wilson case gauge should help you figure out if you are sizing the shoulders back too far. My Mini-14 chamber is much looser and longer than my AR, so I try to keep fired brass separate from each other to keep from overworking the brass.

 

[Rushthezeppelin]

At a COAL of 2.250, you should be in the sweet spot for H335. It sounds like you may have excessive head-space. A Wilson case gauge should help you figure out if you are sizing the shoulders back too far. My Mini-14 chamber is much looser and longer than my AR, so I try to keep fired brass separate from each other to keep from overworking the brass.

Wilsons are sold out across the entire internet right now, that's why I suggested the Dillon for him.

 

[smovlov]

Yea, the eBay Dillon is the only one I could find too. COL was 2.250" also.

warhwkbb,
are you sizing your brass to the chamber like you would a bolt gun?

Thanks for the input!

 

[Walkalong]

High primers are most often a sign of low pressure.

Pushing the shoulder back too far causes case stretching near the web, but normal pressure loads won't have high primers.

 

[IMtheNRA]

Primers backing out when fired is a common occurance. While a case gage is a very useful tool, I don't see what it has to do with primer position after the round is fired.

 

[ranger335v]

A primer can only back out as far as the "headspace" (sloppy cartridge fit actually) will allow. You're setting your case shoulders back too far and, at 25 gr. of 335, you're barely above start loads for a 55 gr. bullet so you don't have enough chamber pressure to move your overly resized cases back to the bolt face.

Setting a sizer by directions allows noobs to make ammo that will chamber and fire but it's NOT what we properly need to do. Fine tune your FL sizer so the resized cases fit snuggly and the primers won't have room to back out; that way your cases won't have to stretch so much each time you fire them.

 

[dagger dog]

High primers are most often a sign of low pressure.

The primer will be blown partially out of the pocket the length of the headspace upon firing, the case will be held against the chamber wall until the pressure drops and the case will be pushed back over the primer.

Most likely scenario is ^ as Walkalong stated.

Make sure your NEW MINI's chamber is thoroughly cleaned of grease or oil, and you may want to inspect the chamber for burrs or roughness. That would make the case hang up and not being able to move rearward and reseat the primer.

 

[Rule3]

at 25 gr. of 335, you're barely above start loads for a 55 gr. bullet so you don't have enough chamber pressure to move your overly resized cases back to the bolt face.

What data source are you seeing that 25 grains is barely above a start load??

 

[243winxb]

Mixed brass

Is the high primer with the same head stamp??

I checked my resized cases with a homemade comparator and it seemed to be within .005 from a factory round.

Long or Short?

 

[smovlov]

High primers are most often a sign of low pressure.

Primers were pushed out on loads from 23gr to 25 gr so seems its universal.

While a case gage is a very useful tool, I don't see what it has to do with primer position after the round is fired.

I figured I could use it so set the die to resize to SAMMI spec. Would I be able to full length size it to fit the chamber of the Mini like you would a bolt gun?

at 25 gr. of 335, you're barely above start loads for a 55 gr. bullet

Hodgdon data states 25.3gr max. Granted it is at 2.200 and I seated to 2.250 but I was under the impression that seating depth doesn't have the same effect on rifle as it does on 40 s&w or the like.

Make sure your NEW MINI's chamber is thoroughly cleaned of grease or oil, and you may want to inspect the chamber for burrs or roughness. That would make the case hang up and not being able to move rearward and reseat the primer.

Its had a hundred or so rounds through it but I'll double check. This is the first time reloading for it so there could be an issue.

Is the high primer with the same head stamp.

I thought the same, I checked and its with different head stamps. Theyre moved out about .005" max.


Where should I go from here? Options seem to be:

1. Increase pressure. (Sounds like a bad idea.)
2. Adjust resizing die. (Can I do this without a case gauge?)
3. Don't worry about it. (Is it really a big deal that they move out a bit?)
4. Something else.

Thanks for all the help guys! Everyone super helpful!

 

[Jim Watson]

You can adjust the sizing die to fit the rifle.
Back it off the shellplate and adjust so that it sizes the brass just enough to chamber freely. You cannot get as snug a fireformed fit in an auto as you can a bolt action but you should be able to stop protruding primers.

 

[Walkalong]

Bump it up 2 or 3 tenths and see if the high primers go away. Speer #13 goes to 26.0 Grs with H335. Many people run over 25.0 Grs with it and a 55 Gr FMJ bullet.

Backing off the sizer (Adjusting up) is a good idea as well. Sounds like you are over sizing and under pressure.

 

[steve4102]

Here is what I think, take it with as big a grain of salt you can find.

First, High primers are usually a sign of "Low" pressure. Why?

When the firing pin strikes the primer the entire round is pushed forward in the chamber.

As soon as the primer ignites the powder the primer is pushed backwards out of the case and up against the bolt face.

As pressures build, the brass case expands in all directions re-seating the primer and also sealing the chamber.

If the charge is weak, there is insufficient pressures to force the case towards the bolt face and re-seat the primer. Thus a high primer.

If your brass was undersized you would not see backed out primer unless they were also weak.

Excess headspace will cause the primer to back out more than a properly sized case as the distanse to the bolt face is greater. But, when pressures build, the primer will still be re-seated up against the bolt face. Often times this will create "flattened" primers and many will mistake excess headspace and primer movement with excess pressure.

Are you sure your charge weights are accurate?

Did you actually have backed out primers with the 25gr load, or could you be mistaken?

All that said, I load for two Mini-30 and one Mini-14, everything I load has a slight backed out primer in all three of these rifles no matter the load. I ignore it and attribute it to the speed of the action and the pressure curve of my powder.

Nothing to worry about IMO.

 

[Rule3]

Hodgdon data states 25.3gr max. Granted it is at 2.200 and I seated to 2.250 but I was under the impression that seating depth doesn't have the same effect on rifle as it does on 40 s&w or the like.
!

Apparently I am looking at a different Internet for H335??

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

55 GR. BAR TSX FB H335 .224" 2.180" 21.3 2920 48,900 PSI 22.7 3063 53,000 PSI
55 GR. SFIRE H335 .224" 2.220" 21.4 2969 47,000 PSI 22.8 3099 51,800 PSI
55 GR. SPR SP H335 .224" 2.200" 23.0 3018 40,800 CUP 25.3 3203 49,300 CUP


Hornady manual does not come close to that data either

Speer wants a magnum primer.

Lyman lists 24.3 to max of 27.0

So I guess it's pot luck

 

[steve4102]

Apparently I am looking at a different Internet for H335??

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

55 GR. BAR TSX FB H335 .224" 2.180" 21.3 2920 48,900 PSI 22.7 3063 53,000 PSI
55 GR. SFIRE H335 .224" 2.220" 21.4 2969 47,000 PSI 22.8 3099 51,800 PSI
55 GR. SPR SP H335 .224" 2.200" 23.0 3018 40,800 CUP 25.3 3203 49,300 CUP

Your link lists the same charge as the OP. 25.3gr as Max.
What different data are you referring to?

 

[warhwkbb]

Yea, the eBay Dillon is the only one I could find too. COL was 2.250" also.

warhwkbb,
are you sizing your brass to the chamber like you would a bolt gun?

Thanks for the input!

Not exactly, I still use the case gauge but I size at the long end of the spectrum. It is still full-length sized, just not to min specs.

 

[Rule3]

Your link lists the same charge as the OP. 25.3gr as Max.
What different data are you referring to?

See post #10. I quoted the wrong person.Sorry.

Hornady manual lists loads much lower, so as I mentioned it's what ever manual you pick up.

 

[smovlov]

Are you sure your charge weights are accurate?

Did you actually have backed out primers with the 25gr load, or could you be mistaken?

Scale was set up with check weights and checked a few times throughout reloading. Primers are backed out only slightly and they have a flattened look on the 25gr load. After reading all of your suggestions I'm guessing its a combination of excess headspace and the lower end loads that caused the backing out. I adjusted the die to chamber the case without binding which is .005" over the previous batch. Now there's a little bit of daylight between the shell holder and the bottom of the die. Prevously it was set to the shell holder. I'll retest with 25.0gr and the .005" longer shoulder dimension.

 

[ranger335v]

"What data source are you seeing that 25 grains is barely above a start load?? "

Lyman #49. And the fact of the proud fired primers confirms it.

 

[Rule3]

"What data source are you seeing that 25 grains is barely above a start load?? "

Lyman #49. And the fact of the proud fired primers confirms it.

Maybe, maybe not, I do not think it actually confirms it as we do not know any of the other issues. As mentioned other Manuals and the powder distributor have much different load data.(lower)

I'll have to load some up to try and duplicate this.

 

[W.E.G.]

I'm about to just buy a case gauge and start from there

You ABSOLUTELY need to do this for any bottlenecked rifle cartridge that headspaces on the shoulder.

That "run it down 'til it touches..." practice is absolute gobbledy-gook.
Do not use that method for bottlenecked rifle cartridge that headspace on the shoulder.

You are only guessing when you have no tool to take the crucial measurement.
62,000 PSI is no subject for guesswork.

 

[smovlov]

Lyman case gauge was back in stock on amazon. Picked one up. Thanks again everyone for the help!

 

[Rule3]

Maybe, maybe not, I do not think it actually confirms it as we do not know any of the other issues. As mentioned other Manuals and the powder distributor have much different load data.(lower)

I'll have to load some up to try and duplicate this.

Well as I stated above, I was curious as to the high primers and "low" powder charge as per Hornady Manual #8, the powder charge they tested was much lower for H335. There is always discrepancy between manuals but in this case it is a lot compared to Hodgdon, Lyman and Speer.

My view is Hornady makes the bullets (for some time) and tests not just high and low but up to 6 velocity's.I had not shot the Min 14 for a while so it was anice day to doe so.

Anyway, I tried to duplicate the OP. I used a Ruger Mini 14, Win SR primers and LC brass that has been loaded at least 4-5 times. When priming they sure went in with no resistance.

I loaded 50 rounds, powder measured with RCBS Uniflow and spot weighed on a Dillon Beam balance.

Did not shoot for accuracy as I was to busy gathering up brass.

Started with the low charge of 21.0 grains. then 22.0 and final of 23.0 Bullet was 55gr Hornady blem from Midway.

Not one raised primer in the bunch. The rifle cycled and functioned without a hitch. Even though I really was not going for accuracy I had targets up and the groups did tighten up with the 23.0 gr load but all were acceptable at 25 yards with just the metal sights.

Conclusion? YMMV Depends on what manual you care to use.

I think the OP issue without any more info is not related to the powder charge if it was indeed weighed correctly.

Some crummy photos of the fired brass.