High Quality Coach Gun in 12GA.

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I'm in the market for a high quality and reliable 12GA coach gun. Ive heard about remington, stoeger,s tevens and baikal. As far as reliablity and quality I am pretty clueless. This weapon would primarily be used as a homedefense firearm and some light practice at the range. Please share your recommendations or experience with a coach gun for home defense purposes. Thank you gentle(wo)men.
 
I sometimes do Cowboy Shooting

and have a couple of coach guns. The Stoeger, dollar for dollar, is your best value. I also have a hammered Huglu which is Turkish. For pure looks the Huglu is the winner.

The coach gun will work fine for home defense, but remember it only gives you two shots. Other ones you might consider would be a Mossberg 500 or a Remington 870

Good luck
 
The Remington Spartan IS a Baikal, rebadged. Mine's a 20 gauge, but the 12 gauge is identical other than gauge/proportion. I really like mine, ain't real petty, but it's very strong and seems well built. Ain't much to screw up on it, really, pretty simple by design. I really bought this thing to dove hunt with, but it makes a dandy safe room gun, too. I don't need no stinkin' repeaters.

6966PICT0097.JPG
 
You might check out gun/pawn shops for older doubles. Get the barrel trimmed by a smith and often you will have a nice one for ~$300 or so.
I found a "nasty" looking 12ga hammer gun in pawn for ~$100. It was dirty but tight so I bought it. Took it to my smithy and he trimmed the barrel for $75.00. I bought a set of 12-20ga inserts so I can shoot 20ga in it if I want to. Serves the purpose nicely. Oh, and if you stick with a 12ga, check out the Aquila low impulse ammo - looks like a 12ga round that's about 2" long.
 
"High quality coach gun" is an oxymoron. You can get decent, and even acceptable, quality in a new "coach gun", but nothing that comes close to what is considered "high" quality in the shotgun world. If you want a "high quality" coach gun, you need to buy a high quality side-by-side and chop the barrels. Of course, no one in their right mind would do that.

All of the ones you mentioned, however, are solidly built and more than adequate for defensive use.
 
Father Knows Best is right on.

There is no "high quality" coach gun on the new production market. There are some that are quite serviceable, however.

I'd get the Stoeger, though. They're functional from the box, and CAS competitors tweak them to take all manner of abuse and keep shooting without spending too much money.

For your purposes, if you don't absolutely need to have the Old West vibe, I'd also recommend looking at this thing from Stoeger: http://www.stoegerindustries.com/firearms/condor-outback.tpl
silo_condorOutback12.jpg


Their O/U's have been pretty reliable guns in the hands of a few people I know.

That said, an 870 Express with an 18" barrel will hold a lot more rounds and give you reliable quality for less money than any double barrel.
 
Well, since imageigloo.com seems to be cratered, here's the Remington Spartan from the Remington site. It's plenty decent and mine cost me $299. I am very happy with it. It's new, of course, but well made far as I can tell. No, it's not a $35,000 English side by side, but who the heck needs a $35,000 side by side that's actually going to USE and abuse the gun. For the cost of buying an old beater and getting the barrels cut off, you can have a new Remington with interchangable chokes and actually hunt with it if you want, much more versatile than your standard cylinder bore gun. I personally would not consider ANY cheap pump as reliable as a side by side. I've had dirty, rusty rounds fail to extract in both my Mossbergs and an 870. I've had rounds not pushed far enough into the magazine slip back and jam up the works on an 870...more than once I might add. You ain't gotta worry about feeding in a double. All it has is sears and springs inside. If it's a double trigger gun, it's a lot more simple. I believe in the KISS principle. I've hunted with both types and the side by sides never gave me a problem in the field. I cannot say that for pumps, though they're usually reliable and I do hunt with and would trust a pump if well kept. But, far as reliability, I'll take a 300 dollar side by side double trigger gun over a 200 dollar 870 express bargain rack gun any day of the week including sunday.

My fav, extractors and double triggers----KISS
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/SPR_models/SPR220_side-by-side.asp

Single selective trigger and selective extractors
http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/shotguns/SPR_models/SPR210_side-by-side.asp

http://www.gunweek.com/2005/feature0210.html
 
internal or external hammers?

If you are using the coach gun for home defense is it ok to keep it loaded since the internal hammers cock when you open the gun. Most shotguns are not drop safe so you should not keep a round chambered. Would the external hammer models be better for home defense since it can be kept loaded and uncocked?
 
My interest in coach guns has diminished considerably lately, but if you want a decent gun with an exceptional look, you can't beat the CZ (to echo the earlier post). We got one in at the store a while back. What a gun. :what:
 
For HD, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Why would you want a double when a pump holds more rounds, is often lighter and faster to reload?

When it comes to home defense or any kind of self defense, I don't mess around at all. I buy and use what works the best for me. I don't care about looks, price or what is cool. I have a rem 870 12. It works all the time. I practice with it and I know it can do the job. I have more trust in it than any of my AKs, AR-15s or other assult rifles. I only keep one long gun loaded in my house and it is the shotgun.
 
Hey Tim
I ended up with an EMF Stagecoach gun just recently. It has the mule ears hammers. It's a hefty 8 pounds especially made to reduce recoil. It is imported by TTN. A replica of Colt's 1878 Coachgun. This is a good quality gun.
I first wanted the Stoeger. It's beautiful and light weight. Just heard so much complaining about it that it scared me off.
 
For someone who wants to defend themselves, but has no interest in learning the manual of arms for any gun (like my mother), a coach gun might be good. It is plain and simple to operate. I agree that there are better alternatives.
 
I keep mine loaded and leaning away from the bed against the wall in my bedroom. I have no kids anymore running round the house or I'd stash it away. But, I've never had a shotgun go off that I didn't intend to go off. I've been hunting with shotguns every season since I was about 9 years old and I'm 54 now. I've fired tens of thousands of rounds in that time. The Spartan is my second double. I have an old Sarasqueta Spanish built 28" 12 gauge I bought for hunting in 1971 and it still can do the job, though I retired it from waterfowling when steel was mandated.

For HD, I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Why would you want a double when a pump holds more rounds, is often lighter and faster to reload?

When it comes to home defense or any kind of self defense, I don't mess around at all. I buy and use what works the best for me.

Well, I hit what I aim at. I only need one. I've got two with five on the stock and that's excessive way I see it. My shotgun is for safe room duty. If I have to leave the room, it'll be with my .38 snub with which I also hit what I shoot at.

I don't need no lights, lasers, bayonetts, can openers, 50 rounds in a saddle pack, hangin' off my shotgun. I ain't goin' to Iraq with it, I'm simply defending my bedroom. I'll likely never need it, never have needed it, but it's there if I ever do need it.

I hunt all the time, will be out with my Spartan next week slaying doves. If I can hit doves on the wing at 35 yards, what's a bad guy at 12 feet and stationary in the door of my bedroom? The secret is knowing how to hit what you aim at. If you can do that, firepower is moot. I ain't tacticool, but I am very handy with what I like and I like normal shotguns, no pistol grips please, good balance and quick pointing and the coach gun points about as quick as a shotgun can point. It's light and easy to the shoulder and I can take out the BG quicker with it than with any heavier pump. They're a lot quicker on a flushing quail, stands to reason they'd be quicker on a BG.

Hell, I don't use shotguns for squirrel hunting. Squirrels don't move much, faster than any human and a lot smaller target, though, and I still consider hunting them with a shotgun cheating, too easy. I prefer using a .22 pistol when I squirrel hunt, rifle at most. Shotguns are just too easy. I don't recall ever missing a squirrel with a shotgun. That's what makes 'em great survival guns, though, only takes one shot. If you need more than 2 to take out an intruder, you need to get into trap and skeet and learn how to handle a shotgun, way I see it. Take that "shoot where you look" course.

The nifty thing about the Spartan is, with its interchangable chokes, it fills more than one niche for me. It's a handy defense gun with the open chokes in it. Put in the tighter chokes and I can hunt dove or even ducks over decoys with it. It's a great backpack/survival gun for the outback and next back packing trip, if it involves the possibility of small game or if it's in bear country, a slug in one barrel, number 5 in the other, and you got a combo gun, rabbit's withone barrel and bear defense with the other. It breaks down into a small enough package that I can carry it on my GoldWing, one of the MAIN reasons I got it over a longer barreled gun. I was lookin' at one of those Turkish OUs at Academy when I decided on the Spartan and the handy 20" length is the reason I went with the Spartan. If I had a tacticool pump gun (have a Mossberg for waterfowl), all it'd be is a bedroom gun, whadda waste! It'd probably never fire a shot other than maybe a few rounds at the range to test it. Target shooting with a shotgun is stupid unless it involves clay birds off a trap. Our club sorta frowns on people tearing up the target boards with shotguns, anyway. I go out there and pattern a load now and then, but don't waste time blasting the target boards to pieces. And, I mean, far as fire power goes, my doubles only hold one less than my pump. I keep the limiter in the magazine because it's a waterfowl gun and can only hold 3 rounds by law. I don't wanna get out to the marsh and discover I forgot to reinstall the plug. Game wardens wouldn't see that as a good excuse.

I feel a gun that I KNOW and am familiar with in the field is going to be more effective than one that sits by the bed and collects dust. I've I've killed a few hundred dove with it, it's become a part of me and natural to point.
 
Mmmm. And my Stevens 311 (bought new) once broke a hammer under normal use.

ANY mechanical device can fail, "quality" notwithstanding. That's life in the fast lane. I continue to depend on "cheap" Remington 870 Express guns for defensive work, all bought used. Wingmasters and Police guns too, I have yet to buy my first new 870 of any stripe. I have yet to break a part in one of those 'cheap used' 870s either. That of course is neither here nor there, anecdote does not equal data.

Tim, there is nothing wrong with you looking at a short barreled (18- 22") SXS as a home defense gun. They have served that role well for a long long time. The man who is IMHO the finest fighting shotgun instructor extant carries one on the road with him in preference to a pump or semiauto, if that means anything to you. For a lot of years, until the recoil got to be too much for her, my sainted mother kept a cut-down 20 ga. SXS as a house gun.

They just work.

Any of the guns you mentioned would probably do well. Your decisions are as to brand, hammers vs. hammerless, and one trigger or two. For a long time I played around with the older Rossi coach guns, they worked OK- two triggers, two hammers. I'm not overly familiar with the new generation of coach guns brought about by the interest in CAS, but any gun that is popular with that circuit should do you just fine. Shop around, look at your options and pick one out. Learn to handle it, make it as familiar as a body part, and it will do you just fine.

Ultimately it is the shooter who matters most.

Stay safe,

lpl/nc
 
BTW why extractors and not ejectors?

After shooting flurries yesterday, I learned the real value of ejectors when you want to reload fast. They make reloading a break-action gun at least 3 times as fast.

Home invasion is not a CAS match.
 
Extractors are simpler, but yeah, wish I could have gotten the Spartan with selective ejectors instead of extractors and kept the double triggers. I consider the double triggers (for hunting, what I got the gun for after all) more important than ejectors and, anyway, extractors are less likely to break, simple design. Double triggers are less likely to break and if one does bust a spring or something, you have another barrel, but what I really like about double triggers is the instant choice of choke. For home defense, that's not a biggy, but for hunting, it's nice, no flipping switchs, just choose your trigger and fire.

Ideally, I'd get a double trigger with selective ejectors, but I don't know if I've ever seen an affordable double set up that way. Either it has extractors and double triggers or it has selective ejectors and a single selective trigger at best or non-selective trigger at worst. There have been times when the dove were flying in in waves and I couldn't keep shells in the gun, frustrating, LOL! For safe room defense, though, I don't see why I'd ever need more than two shots. Sure, if I were in combat in Iraq, I'd want a pump or autoloader, but then I'm sure I'd rather have an M16 for most combat. The demands for combat and safe room defense are NOT one in the same, however. I actually feel BETTER armed with a light, quick pointing coach gun than a heavier pump with a lot of tacticool stuff hanging off it making it a pain to point.
 
The man who is IMHO the finest fighting shotgun instructor extant carries one on the road with him in preference to a pump or semiauto, if that means anything to you.

Part of his reasoning is that the double barreled is legal pretty much anywhere that firearms are allowed, so he doesn't have to concern himself with whether or not a particular jurdiscitions bans a particular weapon. Reliability of the weapon in the various environments he subjects his truck (and self) to is also a concern. His truck tends to be rather . . . full, and goes interesting places.

That being said, he has repeatedly stated that a double barrel makes an excellent weapon because it is simple, reliable, and time proven.
 
Extractors are simpler

A baseball bat is also simpler. At some point, you ante up and buy a quality gun that will work reliably, not one without a necessary feature because it's cheap and it might break.

Same goes for the trigger. A quality single mechanical trigger is easier to operate under stress. Just avoid an inertia trigger. I have one in a hunting gun. Nobody's gonna die if I miss a shot at a quail because the first shell was a misfire or I forgot to load it. But I wouldn't have it in a defensive gun.

The only practical reason to have a double trigger in a quality gun is because you want instant blind barrel selection for upland hunting, or if you have hand/finger injuries like a friend of mine. He sometimes "doubles" a single trigger.

Ever shot "flurries"?

Try it. I learned a LOT about practical rapid shooting and reloading of a double gun, and it was one of the most fun shooting games I've ever tried.

It's set up like this: two people next to each other, each with a double gun (O/U or SxS, doesn't matter) with a sawhorse next to each. You line up pairs of shells on the sawhorses. Three clay throwers, throwing low and really fast: one in the right corner throwing left, one in the left corner throwing right, and a trap house in the middle on wobble.

One guy calls "Pull!" and the puller starts throwing birds from all three houses at a good pace. You get 30 birds between the two of you. You shoot your two barrels and reload as fast as you can from the sawhorse, and shoot two more.

If you don't have selective ejectors, forget it. If you have two triggers, it will slow you down. But with ejectors and a single trigger, it's amazing how fast you can stuff in more shells and get off more shots, and even hit a good number of birds if you're "on". 15/30 is a VERY good score, but it still demonstrates that you can get off a lot of fast shots and hit something with them.

Fun, and great practice.
 
Still rather have double triggers. I like to select the choke I need instantly. I don't do a lot of quail hunting, mostly waterfowl and doves and the double will mostly be used on doves. I've never owned a single trigger double gun, but if I bought one I'd INSIST on a selector switch so I could set the barrel that goes first at least. If I had a high flyer come over, could select the tight choke. It would also be necessary for use with slug/shot as in using the gun as a combo. That Turkish gun I looked at at Academy had the selective ejectors and selective single trigger. As a hunting gun, it'd been a good set up. But, I still prefer double triggers and being able to lock that Spartan in the trunk of my GoldWing is NICE! I'll be taking some dove hunting trips this fall on it. My van gets 15 mpg and my Wing gets 35-40 and besides, I'd rather ride than drive. I could tow my trailer and haul my longer guns, but I'd rather not. I have done that before, though. I've even gone goose hunting on the bike towing the trailer. LOL Having a coach gun with screw in chokes has been a nagging desire of mine for a while now. I thought about having my old Spanish 12 cut down and Briley chokes installed, but really wanted the gun in 20 gauge. The Spartan is a lot easier on my shoulder. That old 12 is fairly light and kicks like a mule. I haven't owned a 20, either, since I sold my old Wingmaster when I was broke in college and needed the money. I sorta like 20 gauge guns for lighter duty. Yeah, I shoot 12 on ducks and geese, but dove hunting is better with a 20 I think.

BTW, even on a $35,000 shotgun, the KISS principle still works. You can spend what you want to on a shotgun. I don't have a lot to spend. $300 is a lot for me. An old man in this town tried to sell me a Kreighoff single barrel trap gun once, came with 4 barrels in a leather padded case. He wanted something over $4,000 for it. Now, I know it ain't no NEF, but 4K for a single shot? LOL! I told him I'd love it, but I'm more of a Mossberg kinda guy. For 4K I could have bought almost 4 Ruger Red Labels. LOL! They were big into trap and skeet, though, and he had one son that made the Olympic try outs once, was some kind of Texas state champion. They were real serious about it and they own a big electrical contracting firm here that contracts a lot of work to the chemical plants around here, so they had the money for the high dollar toys, I guess.

This thread is about using a coach gun for defense, though, or finding a good one. Strictly for defense use, no hunting or trap shooting, just defense, a single non-selective trigger, selective ejectors, and a pair of cylinder bore fixed choke barrels would be about as good as it gets, I reckon. I was looking at hunting and ease of motorcycle transport when I bought mine, not your usual set of criteria, and just so happens it can double as self defense, though you might make a case that it'd been better with a single trigger and ejectors. My first priorities weren't self defense, though, and indeed the gun is available with a single trigger and selective ejectors. However, I don't recall if the trigger is selective. Wouldn't matter for self defense, though.
 
Strictly for defense use, no hunting or trap shooting, just defense, a single non-selective trigger, selective ejectors, and a pair of cylinder bore fixed choke barrels would be about as good as it gets, I reckon.

I also meant for defense.:) If the barrels are different from each other, then 2 triggers are nice, though in a high-stress situation you can STILL forget which barrel you've already fired. Sometimes yesterday I thought I'd fired 2 shots, and I'd only shot one. My brain just didn't compute, even under the "stress" of friendly competition.

The instant choke selection factor is good for hunting, though lately I've done some messing around and I think that shot quality may change the pattern more than the choke. I was breaking birds solidly shooting 25 yard wobble trap, with an IC choke. Couldn't tell the difference between that and Modified, and barely between the IC and a Full. This was very hard, very round STS Magnum shot, though. I'm not sure how much difference the choke makes, in that I don't know if it's worth the thought processing required to make the choice, versus just focusing 100% on being on the bird.:) More experiments to come...
 
I'm going to choke IC/Full for dove this year. I normally just shoot modified in my auto, but the full tosses a nice pattern at 40 yards with 7.5 AAs. Mod and full are so close, it's hard for me to tell the difference, so I figure IC would be more useful up close.

Yeah, my old 12 is fixed choke and the full is on the rear trigger, mod on the front. In the past, I've taken it out combination game shooting. A doe jumped almost at my feet once and I swung on it and pulled the front trigger....6 shot for small game....DOH! LOL I had the slug in the full choke because it was okay at 50 yards accuracy, was still hunting deep woods, and I figured I'd instinctively go for the rear trigger on a long shot. Well, that was true enough, but I instinctively went for the front trigger on the 20 yard shot. ROFL! Hope that doe got over being peppered with sixes. Embarrassing. LOL She didn't act like she even felt it. Yeah, when it's now or never, I tend to revert to instinct. I just naturally reach for the front trigger when a bird is close and the rear when it's way out there, instinct, don't even think about it. That can hurt you if you're doing something other than bird hunting with the gun.
 
I have the affliction you seem to be 'down' with. I bought a Stoeger coach 12 for HD (go along with my Makarov), rabbits and quail and trail walking for deer. I keep it propped in the corner by my bed, loaded with #6 right bbl 000 3" mag buck left. the bbls are improved cyl. choke right and modified left. if I need a repeater I grab my Marlin .45 w/10 shot clip off the wall hanger. I'se skeered of the dark!
 
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