HK UPS-C v. Colt Commander
- Thread starter Sproles
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My Colt Commander is a satin series 70 that is fairly stock. Barrel throated and polished, ED Brown barrel bushing, Wilson full leangth group gripper guide rod, and front night sight. It is 100% reliable, has a great trigger and just plain fun to shoot. My H&K is a 40 compact. It has a smooth trigger, Trijicon night sights and will feed and fire anything. THe only thing I know to do is buy one of each!
cratz2
Member
You can call blind to technological advances, you can say I view the 1911 through rose-colored glasses, I don't really care. I would take the Colt Commander. If it's not 100% reliable, have a quick and easy throat/polish job done by Ned Christiansen or a reputable local guy if you are so lucky. While it's there, get the trigger of your choice installed along with a good 4 lb trigger job. Get 3 Wilson mags or PowerMags and be happy with your gun.
I do like the variants available in the USP but it just isn't as comfortable to me as the 1911. If I had to use it right out of the box and absolutely could not afford the time away for custom work, I might consider the USP. I don't believe they're junk as at least one contributor to this thread has claimed but I don't think of it as the equal to a good Commander.
I do like the variants available in the USP but it just isn't as comfortable to me as the 1911. If I had to use it right out of the box and absolutely could not afford the time away for custom work, I might consider the USP. I don't believe they're junk as at least one contributor to this thread has claimed but I don't think of it as the equal to a good Commander.
New_comer
Member
You've already got a good gun: adequate caliber, number of rounds, excellent as CCW.
Why change?
IIWY, I'd save up either for the USP or the Colt, whichever drives your fancy.
For out-of-the-box rugged utilitarian performance, then the USP's it. It's got a decent 5-lb SA trigger, longish but otherwise excellent. And if you happen to err shooting a 45 super thru it, I've read that the gun can take it, tho it would be better shoot the hotter loads with the full size version.
I doubt if you'll be using either model for a 50-100 yd bullseye shooting anyways...
As a showgun, then I'd pick the Colt. Even if it performs ok, I wouldn't want to ding up the finish during CCW and lose its resale value.
Why change?
IIWY, I'd save up either for the USP or the Colt, whichever drives your fancy.
For out-of-the-box rugged utilitarian performance, then the USP's it. It's got a decent 5-lb SA trigger, longish but otherwise excellent. And if you happen to err shooting a 45 super thru it, I've read that the gun can take it, tho it would be better shoot the hotter loads with the full size version.
I doubt if you'll be using either model for a 50-100 yd bullseye shooting anyways...
As a showgun, then I'd pick the Colt. Even if it performs ok, I wouldn't want to ding up the finish during CCW and lose its resale value.
Even after a trigger job, the SA trigger on my HK USPc is at best fair. The DA trigger on the HK USPc just plain sucks. The clunky safety lever/decocker on the HK is not as comfortable for me as a 1911. The trigger reach seems just a bit too long for me on the HK. The HK has more muzzle flip. I find the magazine release on the HK harder to reach and use.
In contrast, the triggers on my Kimber Compacts are great.
Have I had my Kimbers tweaked by a gunsmith? Yup, I have. I've also had my HK USPc tweaked by a gunsmith. The Kimbers are now where I want them. The USPc is not. YMMV.
Cruiser
Member
"I dont know how people arrive at the conclusion that the HK is junk..."
Front sights falling off, recoil spring assemblies coming apart & tying up the guns, failing to fire in DA, decocking if you use a high thumb position on the safety...
The term junk is, admittedly, subjective, but watching these sort of malfunctions and breakdowns repeatedly in 20 guns over a period of three years leads me to the conclusion that the USP is an over-priced, poorly engineered (or poorly executed) design. Our PD has issued 1st gen Glocks, Berettas, and now 3rd gen Glocks & Kimbers. All have had individual examples of minor glitches and failures, but nothing on the order I've seen with the USP's.
Just my observations and opinions. Go with what you like & feel comfortable with.
Front sights falling off, recoil spring assemblies coming apart & tying up the guns, failing to fire in DA, decocking if you use a high thumb position on the safety...
The term junk is, admittedly, subjective, but watching these sort of malfunctions and breakdowns repeatedly in 20 guns over a period of three years leads me to the conclusion that the USP is an over-priced, poorly engineered (or poorly executed) design. Our PD has issued 1st gen Glocks, Berettas, and now 3rd gen Glocks & Kimbers. All have had individual examples of minor glitches and failures, but nothing on the order I've seen with the USP's.
Just my observations and opinions. Go with what you like & feel comfortable with.
Seems strange that no one else has complained of the above mentioned problems. In my years of shooting USPs and watching friends shoot theirs, I've never heard or see any of those things happen.
The local sheriff's department uses the USP .40 as their duty weapon and reports none of those types of problems.
Also seems in stark contrast to what I've read on this and other message boards. . .
Shake
The local sheriff's department uses the USP .40 as their duty weapon and reports none of those types of problems.
Also seems in stark contrast to what I've read on this and other message boards. . .
Shake
Sean, Just for the record, the Glock is just a less immaginative version of what HK was doing ten years before Glock ever thought of making a pistol. I guess I must just be lucky, but my USPc 45 has an absolutly beautiful double action trigger, and single action is nicer than Colts 1911. What can I say? Admittedly, HK is fatter thru slide, but very comfy in my hand, and trigger reach is fine. I have yet to actually meet anyone who owns a USPc45; that felt the need to send it off and have it tweaked ( to make it "right"). 
I guess I must just be lucky, but my USPc 45 has an absolutly beautiful double action trigger, and single action is nicer than Colts 1911. What can I say? Admittedly, HK is fatter thru slide, but very comfy in my hand, and trigger reach is fine. I have yet to actually meet anyone who owns a USPc45; that felt the need to send it off and have it tweaked ( to make it "right"). Bobarino
member
holy smokes. this pistol is supposed to be used as a carry gun right? you smooth as a glass rod, super sweet, super tuned single actions trigger on your 1911 style showpiece isn't going to make your DEFENSIVE shooting situation any easier. you'll be so pumped full of adrenaline that a 60 pound 3 inch long trigger pull will seem like nothing to you and you won't even remember it. how many times have you heard a court case where the justifiable shooter said "boy that crisp single action trigger sure was nice when i shot that guy in the heart."? and it will definately not make it any easier in a courtroom. the lawyers that are going to sue the pants off you will rip you apart for carrying a gun with a "hair trigger" which is what it will be labeled. the nice SA trigger is great for the range or competition, but a light trigger will not save you in a defensive shooting if your basic skills have not been ingrained in your brain with lots and lots of training and practice. as far as safety is concerned, a gun is only as safe as the person operating it. cocked and locked is perfectly safe in the hands of someone who has trained that way. then there are people i wouldn't trust anywhere near be with a BB gun that was unloaded.
the 1911 crowd will never change their minds. its a great pistol, but it is not the most efficient of defensive pistols anymore. personally, i'd carry a glock before a 1911, and i don't even like glocks. the H&K triggers are not the best, they do smooth out significantly after a few thousand rouds, but they are not designed as match-target-race pistols. they are tough, reliable service pistols.
you could pobably bet your life on whatever quality pistol you train with. if the 1911 fits like a glove and you shoot well with it and most importantly, you trust your life to it, then go for that. if you like the USP but are not yet as comfortable with it, then you'll have to devote a lot of time to training and practicing to become profeicient with it.
all these opinions don't (or at least shouldn't) mean squat. all that matters is what YOU want. pick the one that you would bet your life on each time, all the time. try them all out extensivley. pick the one that blows your skirt up.
all that said, my vote is for the H&K USP-C .40. (thats what i carry) good luck....
Bobby
the 1911 crowd will never change their minds. its a great pistol, but it is not the most efficient of defensive pistols anymore. personally, i'd carry a glock before a 1911, and i don't even like glocks. the H&K triggers are not the best, they do smooth out significantly after a few thousand rouds, but they are not designed as match-target-race pistols. they are tough, reliable service pistols.
you could pobably bet your life on whatever quality pistol you train with. if the 1911 fits like a glove and you shoot well with it and most importantly, you trust your life to it, then go for that. if you like the USP but are not yet as comfortable with it, then you'll have to devote a lot of time to training and practicing to become profeicient with it.
all these opinions don't (or at least shouldn't) mean squat. all that matters is what YOU want. pick the one that you would bet your life on each time, all the time. try them all out extensivley. pick the one that blows your skirt up.
all that said, my vote is for the H&K USP-C .40. (thats what i carry) good luck....
Bobby
My 1911 triggers are 4 1/2 to 5 lbs. The SA trigger on my HK USPc is about 5 lbs. Both are short travel. The standard Glock trigger is about 5 lbs and is also a short travel. Just how are my 1911 more of "hair-trigger" than either a Glock or HK?
Again, my 1911 trigger is basically no lighter than the SA trigger on my USPc, nor that of my Glock, nor that of my Sig. Personally, I can shoot more quickly and more accurately with my 1911s than with any other gun. YMMV. If you like your HK, great. I've got 2 HKs. I wouldn't feel badly armed with them, but I'm better with the 1911.
So is my 1911.
Which is how I've trained for several years. I've taken LFI-1 & 2 and SigArms Academy Concealed Carry and Advanced Concealed Carry and did all that cocked and locked.
care-less
Yes, what more can you say? You don't happen to be taking a creative writing course at the moment?
Yep.
Well you are right there. I never sent my old HK USPc to be tweaked because it didn't feel right, I sold the pistol rather than address the weird ergonomics and $40.00 spare mags.
Bobarino
Paging Massad Ayoob. Mr. Ayoob we need another of your uncited court case anecdotes ASAP!
Uh, howabout zero times? I am looking to make the gunfight easier, not the courtroom anyways. Why handicap myself with a Nintendo trigger? My self defense 1911 trigger lets off at a factory set 4.5 pounds with a couple millimeters of pretravel and next to no overtravel. The pistol doesn't go off unless I want it to.
Cite one instance of this happening anywhere please. Pretty please. I will bet you cannot find a publicly reported case outside the files of Mas Ayoob.
Hmmm. I think you'll find most 1911 shooters like lots of training and practice. It is how many of us came to the 1911 after trying a lot of inferior weapons.
Hey! Something we can agree on.
Yep.
Yep.
Efficient? My personal 1911s get great mileage. They seem to efficiently burn alot of my money downrange too. What could you possibly be talking about?
You must not be acquainted with care-less yet.
Only a few thousand?
Oddly enough the 1911 was designed as a combat pistol and most serious 1911 shooters try to keep at least one minimally modified one for self-defense purposes.
SNIP
Yes, what more can you say? You don't happen to be taking a creative writing course at the moment?
Yep.
Well you are right there. I never sent my old HK USPc to be tweaked because it didn't feel right, I sold the pistol rather than address the weird ergonomics and $40.00 spare mags.
Bobarino
Paging Massad Ayoob. Mr. Ayoob we need another of your uncited court case anecdotes ASAP!
Uh, howabout zero times? I am looking to make the gunfight easier, not the courtroom anyways. Why handicap myself with a Nintendo trigger? My self defense 1911 trigger lets off at a factory set 4.5 pounds with a couple millimeters of pretravel and next to no overtravel. The pistol doesn't go off unless I want it to.
Cite one instance of this happening anywhere please. Pretty please. I will bet you cannot find a publicly reported case outside the files of Mas Ayoob.
Hmmm. I think you'll find most 1911 shooters like lots of training and practice. It is how many of us came to the 1911 after trying a lot of inferior weapons.
Hey! Something we can agree on.
Yep.
Yep.
Efficient? My personal 1911s get great mileage. They seem to efficiently burn alot of my money downrange too. What could you possibly be talking about?
You must not be acquainted with care-less yet.
Only a few thousand?
Oddly enough the 1911 was designed as a combat pistol and most serious 1911 shooters try to keep at least one minimally modified one for self-defense purposes.
SNIP
Al Thompson
Moderator Emeritus
It's worse than that Boats, Ayoob actually likes the 1911 for "surgical shot placement". His only point is that you have to know where the attack's coming from in order to be able to block it.
benewton
Member
I guess that I was unaware of the level of intensity of the 1911 vrs anything debate.
FWIW, I overpaid for my USPc-.40, swapping engineering time (at a god awful rate) for a weapon which fit my hand so well I just had to have it. Overall, ah, never mind, I don't want to admit what it cost! And I would have much preferred the .45 ACP, which I already had the dies, bullets and ect. for, which, of course, came out, as in available, about a month after mine came home. Ah well...
I've no real idea of how many rounds have gone through mine, although I know I've disposed of 1K of brass, which I discard after 10 reloads after the initial firing. True, most were 180 hard cast lead over 4.5 BE practice rounds, but it's given me no problems that a reasonable cleaning failed to solve (yes, I know, but shooting out of the back door, I can do 50 rounds every day, and who'd clean every day shooting like that?). No gunsmithing done, but I do suspect that I should change the recoil spring unit sometime soon.
1911's are OK, got one, like it. Got a S&W4516, which was replaced by the USPc, and it works too.
Got revolvers, other autos...
Bottom line, as I see it, is to use the weapon that you do best with in the expected application, that you trust, and that you will have with you.
So, good for 1" groups from a tuned pistol at 100 yards, offhand with a 3.5# trigger. Love the technical side. But, if I fire at all, it'll be at a large target, inbound, from 7 yards or less with the range decreasing, and for that application, with a 5'7 1/2" frame to conceal it on, the USPc works just fine for me.
Still wish I had the .45, though...
FWIW, I overpaid for my USPc-.40, swapping engineering time (at a god awful rate) for a weapon which fit my hand so well I just had to have it. Overall, ah, never mind, I don't want to admit what it cost! And I would have much preferred the .45 ACP, which I already had the dies, bullets and ect. for, which, of course, came out, as in available, about a month after mine came home. Ah well...
I've no real idea of how many rounds have gone through mine, although I know I've disposed of 1K of brass, which I discard after 10 reloads after the initial firing. True, most were 180 hard cast lead over 4.5 BE practice rounds, but it's given me no problems that a reasonable cleaning failed to solve (yes, I know, but shooting out of the back door, I can do 50 rounds every day, and who'd clean every day shooting like that?). No gunsmithing done, but I do suspect that I should change the recoil spring unit sometime soon.
1911's are OK, got one, like it. Got a S&W4516, which was replaced by the USPc, and it works too.
Got revolvers, other autos...
Bottom line, as I see it, is to use the weapon that you do best with in the expected application, that you trust, and that you will have with you.
So, good for 1" groups from a tuned pistol at 100 yards, offhand with a 3.5# trigger. Love the technical side. But, if I fire at all, it'll be at a large target, inbound, from 7 yards or less with the range decreasing, and for that application, with a 5'7 1/2" frame to conceal it on, the USPc works just fine for me.
Still wish I had the .45, though...
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
@ Boats's entire post.I think you were unaware of the "1911s are dangerous, out-moded pistols" debate.
Are HKs fine pistols? Sure. So are Sigs, and Glocks and many others. All pistols have advantages and disadvantages. If an HK works for you, great, use it. An Hk could work for me, I've got 2 of them, but my 1911s work better for me.
But when people start saying things like they are outmoded, dangerous, will get you creamed in a courtroom, etc., are you really surprised that many of us will call that into question?
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
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Here is your superior USP reliability for you...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18603
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=18603
benewton
Member
M1911;
I've my gripes with the 1911, but never thought it ineffective, and, so, I guess I never really got into the name calling game.
I've fired SIGs, in detail for recoil testing of some of my sights, with the cheapest ammo the boss could find, with no problems at all. (By the way, did you know that a SIG .40 will fire a 9mm?
Should probably have asked what caliber before I went into the "room"...)
Don't really think that the 1911's are all that dangerous, if you are used to handling pistols. In the recent war, did you notice the "discharge" barrels by the doors of the orderly rooms? And this for the 9mm whatever. So, I guess, things don't change all that much.
As for me, the ergonomics are better, the weapon has never failed without very good cause, i.e. lack of cleaning, and I appreciate the fact that I've the safety on when the chamber is loaded.
On the legality side, YOYO.
If you carry, then you handle daily, which is more than most of the military does. If you come in front of me, as a juror, for an AD, you just might have a problem, since, using a professional weapon, I'd expect you to have mastered it.
On the other hand, my carry ammo and my practice ammo are both reloads, so what the hell do I know about legalty???
Use what you shoot best, and my worthless blessing be on you.
Besides, there's this 10mm itch I have, so I may yet be back with the blessed, given that the good ones are all 1911 based...
I've my gripes with the 1911, but never thought it ineffective, and, so, I guess I never really got into the name calling game.
I've fired SIGs, in detail for recoil testing of some of my sights, with the cheapest ammo the boss could find, with no problems at all. (By the way, did you know that a SIG .40 will fire a 9mm?
Should probably have asked what caliber before I went into the "room"...)
Don't really think that the 1911's are all that dangerous, if you are used to handling pistols. In the recent war, did you notice the "discharge" barrels by the doors of the orderly rooms? And this for the 9mm whatever. So, I guess, things don't change all that much.
As for me, the ergonomics are better, the weapon has never failed without very good cause, i.e. lack of cleaning, and I appreciate the fact that I've the safety on when the chamber is loaded.
On the legality side, YOYO.
If you carry, then you handle daily, which is more than most of the military does. If you come in front of me, as a juror, for an AD, you just might have a problem, since, using a professional weapon, I'd expect you to have mastered it.
On the other hand, my carry ammo and my practice ammo are both reloads, so what the hell do I know about legalty???
Use what you shoot best, and my worthless blessing be on you.
Besides, there's this 10mm itch I have, so I may yet be back with the blessed, given that the good ones are all 1911 based...
HKcenterMass
Member
Its amazing how many "bad " hks are out there. Ive got 3,000 rounds through mine, with 2 failures due to bad UMC ammo ( there was a brass shaving sticking out. I'm callin BS on the "hk is junk" bit. I've seeen plenty of modded and un modded 1911s fail next to me at the range, could have been bad ammo, could have been the gun, but in my opinion and experience, the HK is Superior in reliablilty, hands down, no question.
Here's a sour grapes statement: Of course the vast majority of HK owners only torture their pistols in sordid, small hour Red Dawn fantasies. ...and i dont remember seeing a USP in Red Dawn.
http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html
um, so testing is useless. just like crash testing on a car? I think these tests speak volumes.
Here's a sour grapes statement: Of course the vast majority of HK owners only torture their pistols in sordid, small hour Red Dawn fantasies. ...and i dont remember seeing a USP in Red Dawn.
http://www.streetpro.com/usp/torture.html
um, so testing is useless. just like crash testing on a car? I think these tests speak volumes.
3000 rounds? A good friend and THR member's Colt finally died after about 60000 rounds. Then he sent it to be refurbished and it runs like a champ again. The 1911 is everything but outdated. HKs are not magic swords, nor are 1911s. Just pick the one that fits you and that you can shoot well.
Cruiser
Member
"I'm callin BS on the "hk is junk" bit."
I'm not asking anyone to believe me or change their opinions because of me. I'm just reporting what I've personally observed. Most of the Tacoma PD SWAT team seems to agree that they are junk, since the decision was made to scrap our USP's for Glocks. Three years of constant problems with a duty gun just got to be too much.
Apparently, our experiences are in the minority, but they are all we have to go on. Just like you're not going to take my word that USP's are junk when you've had positive experiences with them, someone else's stories about how great they are won't change our minds after our negative experiences.
Like I said, shoot what you like. If your USP (or Glock, or Browning, or Beretta or Lorcin) works and is reliable, then you have a great gun. Our USP's don't fall into that category.
I'm not asking anyone to believe me or change their opinions because of me. I'm just reporting what I've personally observed. Most of the Tacoma PD SWAT team seems to agree that they are junk, since the decision was made to scrap our USP's for Glocks. Three years of constant problems with a duty gun just got to be too much.
Apparently, our experiences are in the minority, but they are all we have to go on. Just like you're not going to take my word that USP's are junk when you've had positive experiences with them, someone else's stories about how great they are won't change our minds after our negative experiences.
Like I said, shoot what you like. If your USP (or Glock, or Browning, or Beretta or Lorcin) works and is reliable, then you have a great gun. Our USP's don't fall into that category.
Uh, not seeing a USP in the actual movie Red Dawn would make its presence in the joke the product of the fantasy in the mind of the discriminating Hk owner, who apparently dreams that he will one day be "torturing" his pistol in some like scenario and then regale the world with his performance BS at the bivouac. "My pistol ejected an average of 28 inches today on eight of the ten shots it actually fired!!!" It is not "sour grapes," oh nevermind.
Even your unintentionally hilarious link has the word "torture" in it, maybe it is something endemic to Germanic speakers to want to "torture" their pistols under factory conditions in order to sell them to gullible customers at outrageous prices worldwide while many of us Americans make do with one merely tested on battlefields.
I apologize to tactical poseurs everywhere for briefly owning an HK USPc .45 and not becoming completely, or even partially, enamored with it, not even moved by it enough to purchase the polo shirt. At least I am far from alone on that one."German combat divers report that the HK USP. . . ."
Call me the first time German "combat divers" do anything in combat will you?
DeltaElite
Member
I would take the Colt Commander.
I am not a USP fan in the slightest, too many bad experiences with them at the dept range for me.
However, we got lots of practice clearing jams.
FWIW, we dumped the USP for Glock 22's and 35's.
BTW, doesn't USP stand for Unbelievably Shoddy Pistol ?
I am not a USP fan in the slightest, too many bad experiences with them at the dept range for me.
However, we got lots of practice clearing jams.
FWIW, we dumped the USP for Glock 22's and 35's.
BTW, doesn't USP stand for Unbelievably Shoddy Pistol ?
Bobarino
member
Cruiser and others,
this is not intended to be sarcastic or doubting you in any way, but i'm curious as to what kind of problems were encountered with the USP's specifically. broken parts? what kind of ammo was being used? other failures? just want to know..... thanks.
Bobby
this is not intended to be sarcastic or doubting you in any way, but i'm curious as to what kind of problems were encountered with the USP's specifically. broken parts? what kind of ammo was being used? other failures? just want to know..... thanks.
Bobby
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