So I was talking to a guy today that refuses to use anything other than powder. He told me that the pellets ignite at different times each ignition, and therefore cause erratic grouping. Is there any truth to this? I'm borrowing a friends blackpowder rifle to do some muzzleloading, and he gave me a bag of sabots, primers, and the pyrodex pellets. This is my first time doing any kind of blackpowder shooting, so I'm not all familiar with the advantages and disadvantages of the pellets.
Hoax or Truth?
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Wildfire
Member
Here is what I know.
Hey:
T/C did some testing and came up with this. Pellets have holes all the way through them. When a primer goes off , the flame goes straight through the holes in the pellets and starts that Bullet moving forward before the powder actually gets a chance to.
What ends up happening is, The bullet gets pushed forward BUT, how far???
It is different every time. This leads to inaccuracy and creates an obstruction in that barrel rather than a bullet.
I do not use pellets . I have tested them too many times.. You can not fine tune a rifle with 50 grains at a time. {Pellets} 150 grain loads with pellets are pretty harsh and are not even close to fine accuracy. They also beat you up.
It is funny that T/C has their main man hunting most of time with pellets.
The old time BP shooter usually choose loose powder and stay with it. They can adjust their loads for very fine accuracy and there is no reason a muzzle loader can not shoot as accurate as a center fire rifle.
Hey:
T/C did some testing and came up with this. Pellets have holes all the way through them. When a primer goes off , the flame goes straight through the holes in the pellets and starts that Bullet moving forward before the powder actually gets a chance to.
What ends up happening is, The bullet gets pushed forward BUT, how far???
It is different every time. This leads to inaccuracy and creates an obstruction in that barrel rather than a bullet.
I do not use pellets . I have tested them too many times.. You can not fine tune a rifle with 50 grains at a time. {Pellets} 150 grain loads with pellets are pretty harsh and are not even close to fine accuracy. They also beat you up.
It is funny that T/C has their main man hunting most of time with pellets.
The old time BP shooter usually choose loose powder and stay with it. They can adjust their loads for very fine accuracy and there is no reason a muzzle loader can not shoot as accurate as a center fire rifle.
arcticap
Member
Pellets may not always shoot as accurately as loose powder does.
But I'm sure that there have been plenty of instances where a person who has worked up a good load using pellets have out shot another using loose powder.
And sometimes the brand of primer can also make a noticiable difference.
But I'm sure that there have been plenty of instances where a person who has worked up a good load using pellets have out shot another using loose powder.
And sometimes the brand of primer can also make a noticiable difference.
My experience using pellets is that it's more difficult to achieve consistent results, measured as small groups. I believe this is due to two factors:
1) unlike loose powder they are handled with bare hands during the loading process, and they can absorb oil from your fingers if handled too much, and
2) they tend to be a bit fragile, such that they can break up into chunks as they and the ball are rammed home in the breech. This leads to an inconsistency in the size of the flame face in ignition.
Of course, they do have the major drawback of the inability to support fine tuning your loads; this is the main reason I don't use them on a regular basis.
1) unlike loose powder they are handled with bare hands during the loading process, and they can absorb oil from your fingers if handled too much, and
2) they tend to be a bit fragile, such that they can break up into chunks as they and the ball are rammed home in the breech. This leads to an inconsistency in the size of the flame face in ignition.
Of course, they do have the major drawback of the inability to support fine tuning your loads; this is the main reason I don't use them on a regular basis.
when I tried them in the past I couldnt get any consistent groups as per why who knows, while the pellets may eliminate the few seconds it takes to measure a charge I really dont see much of an advantage to them. when hunting a premeasured charge in a speed loader will load just as quickly.
Marlin 45 carbine
Member
I use the pyro pellets in my C&B revolvers with good results but since they're pricey I keep them for fast reloads when hunting.
in my .50 capper I've not had very good luck they don't group nearly as well as loose 3F.
in my .50 capper I've not had very good luck they don't group nearly as well as loose 3F.
BHP FAN
Member
How's the old saying go?'' If you can't say anything nice,don't say anything at all''...
I guess I'll shut up about them pellets...
I guess I'll shut up about them pellets...
Sergeant Sabre
Member
I use pellets and have gotten excellent accuracy. So have all of my hunting buddies. I could probably squeeze out a few more tenths of an inch in group size by going to powder, but why? No animal will notice the difference. Pellets work well, and are more convenient. No messing around with measuring powder, and no pouring it. Drop two pellets down the bore and you're done.
arcticap
Member
Shoot White Hots Pellets for a Guaranteed Electra Refund
It's interesting that right now CVA is offering a money back guarantee on their CVA Electra that states that if one buys a CVA Electra, White Hots Pellets and Powerbelt bullets and shoots it for 2 weeks, then if it's not the best muzzle loader that they've ever fired then they can get the entire purchase price of the Electra refunded.
Now why would they base that entire money back guarantee on the performance of White Hot pellets if they weren't accurate?
Does CVA require that the Electra be tested with loose powder, or Pyrodex or 777 pellets? No not at all. They're confident in the performance of White Hots pellets so maybe there's some advantage to using them.
Maybe it's hype and maybe it's not, but I don't believe that the accuracy that some folks are able to attain is a hoax.
But some folks certainly do like White Hots pellets and apparently so does CVA.
There's also a $100 rebate on the Electra through 12/31 but that's a different offer.
http://www.cva.com/rifles-electra.html
It's interesting that right now CVA is offering a money back guarantee on their CVA Electra that states that if one buys a CVA Electra, White Hots Pellets and Powerbelt bullets and shoots it for 2 weeks, then if it's not the best muzzle loader that they've ever fired then they can get the entire purchase price of the Electra refunded.
Now why would they base that entire money back guarantee on the performance of White Hot pellets if they weren't accurate?
Does CVA require that the Electra be tested with loose powder, or Pyrodex or 777 pellets? No not at all. They're confident in the performance of White Hots pellets so maybe there's some advantage to using them.
Maybe it's hype and maybe it's not, but I don't believe that the accuracy that some folks are able to attain is a hoax.
But some folks certainly do like White Hots pellets and apparently so does CVA.
There's also a $100 rebate on the Electra through 12/31 but that's a different offer.
http://www.cva.com/rifles-electra.html
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Zeke/PA
Member
I have a few Black Powder rifles that will never see a pellet.
They are traditional cap and flint locks that are shot in the traditional manner.
However, my T/C Omega does so well with Pyrodex pellets that further expiremation would be a collassal waste of time.
Of course, a 209 primer is used AND the pellets are inserted BEVEL DOWN.
They are traditional cap and flint locks that are shot in the traditional manner.
However, my T/C Omega does so well with Pyrodex pellets that further expiremation would be a collassal waste of time.
Of course, a 209 primer is used AND the pellets are inserted BEVEL DOWN.
unspellable
Member
This is the first I've heard of the Electra. It seems to be implied that it's using some sort of electric ignition. If so, that might obviate the matter of a primer pushing the bullet forward before the pellet begins to burn. A primer will push a bullet into the rifling. If you look at a pressure curve there is a short sharp pressure spike when the primer fires (The priming compound is an explosive, not a propellant.) followed by a substantial drop and then a gradual rise as the powder begins to burn.
alsaqr
Member
What Zeke said.
Have used Pyrodex pellets and Pyrodex powder extensively. Two 50 grain Pyrodex pellets and 100 grains of Pyrodex RS put the 240 grain .430 XTP bullet to the same point of impact when fired from my CVA Stag Horn. It works for me.
Have used Pyrodex pellets and Pyrodex powder extensively. Two 50 grain Pyrodex pellets and 100 grains of Pyrodex RS put the 240 grain .430 XTP bullet to the same point of impact when fired from my CVA Stag Horn. It works for me.
Nicodemus38
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the reason some people dont like pelletized powder is that your choice is extremely limited to combination sof 30 and 50 grain pellets. sure you dont have the option of a 10 grain gallery load for chipmunks off the back porch, but the great advantage to a pellet is
they weigh the same. for some reason every pellet in each box i get is within a weight variation thats damn near like the variation in nosler bullets. its that close. ive found it hard to get consistency with an adjustable powder measure becasue those stupid little screws come loose a lot.
consistency of groups has more to do then with powder being solid or loose. if you dont adjust bullet to the barrel, youll never be lucky. but then again i use those sabot rounds and for some reason ive never had plastic buildup or huge variation in group size.
they weigh the same. for some reason every pellet in each box i get is within a weight variation thats damn near like the variation in nosler bullets. its that close. ive found it hard to get consistency with an adjustable powder measure becasue those stupid little screws come loose a lot.
consistency of groups has more to do then with powder being solid or loose. if you dont adjust bullet to the barrel, youll never be lucky. but then again i use those sabot rounds and for some reason ive never had plastic buildup or huge variation in group size.
arcticap
Member
I would never recommend shooting those Shockey's APP pellets though. Nearly everyone complains about how those don't work very well, although like everything else that's on the market some folks do actually like them. But there's complaints that they don't completely burn and some chunks of unburned powder come flying out of the barrel which leads to inconsistent velocity.
I ran into a guy at the local Cabela's buying powder for the first time and he said that his friend told him to buy Shockey's pellets.
I talked him out of buying them and he ended buying a powder measure and Schokey's Gold loose powder instead. That was my good deed for the day!
I ran into a guy at the local Cabela's buying powder for the first time and he said that his friend told him to buy Shockey's pellets.
I talked him out of buying them and he ended buying a powder measure and Schokey's Gold loose powder instead. That was my good deed for the day!
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Wildfire
Member
No argument here.
Hey :
While I have tested and charted many rounds {over 700} I have not yet found any pellet loads that work.
Accuracy ?????
Factory accuracy figures have never measured up to anything I would want in the past..
I would call an under 1" rifle at 100 yards fairly accurate..
This 2 to 3" group thing is not what I call accurate at all.
I sent a T/C New Englander back to T/C some years ago. Told them that 4" groups was not good enough and that something had to be wrong with that gun.
They test fired it and got the same results and sent it back to me with a note saying "the accuracy was within factory standards".......
I loaned that gun to a friend for a while, He latter told me he fired 3 pellets with a power belt bullet with it. When I tried to load it the patched ball fell the last 4" of the push to the bottom. His magnum charges and a bullet that has a habit of not staying seated swelled that barrel , Period.
I gave the gun away.
While I have no problem believing that some may get decent accuracy from pellets , It is however NOT the norm.. And certainly not in any of my findings.
My powder measure has never slipped and I always make my loads up at home then go hunting. No field measuring...
Now if pellets work for you , GOOD... Glad they do.. They do not for me.
Hey :
While I have tested and charted many rounds {over 700} I have not yet found any pellet loads that work.
Accuracy ?????
Factory accuracy figures have never measured up to anything I would want in the past..
I would call an under 1" rifle at 100 yards fairly accurate..
This 2 to 3" group thing is not what I call accurate at all.
I sent a T/C New Englander back to T/C some years ago. Told them that 4" groups was not good enough and that something had to be wrong with that gun.
They test fired it and got the same results and sent it back to me with a note saying "the accuracy was within factory standards".......
I loaned that gun to a friend for a while, He latter told me he fired 3 pellets with a power belt bullet with it. When I tried to load it the patched ball fell the last 4" of the push to the bottom. His magnum charges and a bullet that has a habit of not staying seated swelled that barrel , Period.
I gave the gun away.
While I have no problem believing that some may get decent accuracy from pellets , It is however NOT the norm.. And certainly not in any of my findings.
My powder measure has never slipped and I always make my loads up at home then go hunting. No field measuring...
Now if pellets work for you , GOOD... Glad they do.. They do not for me.
Nicodemus38
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last time i checked NO barrel 20 inches or less will be able to burn 150 grains of powder, period. if you use 3x50 gr pellets, the third one will detonate AT the muzzle or a foot beyond the muzzle. thats when i was pushing 300 gr bullets with that load for practice.
most of the powerbelts ive played with dont work well at all with 150 grains. the construction is SOFT. the over pressure generated is way to much for these bullets to handle. the manual with powerbelts admits that the listed 70-90 gr powder charge provides more then ample pressure to expand it into rifleing. more power equals more random expansion that really screws that bullet up.
most of the powerbelts ive played with dont work well at all with 150 grains. the construction is SOFT. the over pressure generated is way to much for these bullets to handle. the manual with powerbelts admits that the listed 70-90 gr powder charge provides more then ample pressure to expand it into rifleing. more power equals more random expansion that really screws that bullet up.
zimmerstutzen
Member
Pellets are exceptionally expensive. Pyrodex is more corrosive than black powder.
Loose powder is easy to adapt loads and work up loads.
It can be used in different caliber guns, without buying another expensive box of pellets.
Simply, there isn't much reason for them to exist, except to line the pockets of the manufacturers.
Loose powder is easy to adapt loads and work up loads.
It can be used in different caliber guns, without buying another expensive box of pellets.
Simply, there isn't much reason for them to exist, except to line the pockets of the manufacturers.
Nicodemus38
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well pyrodex did/is still using the booster ignition charge of bp on the bottom. thats a good thing.
However, i cant find an adjustable powder measure until i locktite the adjsuter screws in. that kinda kills the adjustable part.
However, i cant find an adjustable powder measure until i locktite the adjsuter screws in. that kinda kills the adjustable part.
Wildfire
Member
N38
Hey :
I am not sure what kind of powder measure you have but , mine has never failed.
Mine twist locks and stays put.
I have never heard that Pyrodex was more corrosive than BP.
If you video tape your gun going off and have the ability to run it in slow mow you will see where that 3rd pellet starts burning. Video cameras do not lie.
And 150 grains of any powder is way too hot for a power belt bullet.
{Which I would never trust } in my gun anyway. That little plastic part has been known to come off the end of the bullet and That is how I have found several guns that were brought to me to work on. NO Bullet, just a little green plastic part on top of powder or pellets. The bullet was not there.
I guess it was best that it was not 1/2 way down the barrel and just fell out somewhere.
Hey :
I am not sure what kind of powder measure you have but , mine has never failed.
Mine twist locks and stays put.
I have never heard that Pyrodex was more corrosive than BP.
If you video tape your gun going off and have the ability to run it in slow mow you will see where that 3rd pellet starts burning. Video cameras do not lie.
And 150 grains of any powder is way too hot for a power belt bullet.
{Which I would never trust } in my gun anyway. That little plastic part has been known to come off the end of the bullet and That is how I have found several guns that were brought to me to work on. NO Bullet, just a little green plastic part on top of powder or pellets. The bullet was not there.
I guess it was best that it was not 1/2 way down the barrel and just fell out somewhere.
scythefwd
Member
Wildfire,
That is interesting. I have found that when I pushed a PB through my bore (unloaded it through the breach), it was engraved with my rifling pattern. The grooves/lands were so defined, I was able to determine that I have 8 lands of right hand twist. They are easy to seat, but I doubt I could shake one out of my bore without slamming it crown first into the ground (or breach first if I take the plug out) and doing noticeable damage.
What types of guns / barrels are you seeing this in? Have you slugged the barrels to see what they actually measure? Just curious.
The really got the loose powder to stay in behind that plug without the bullet in there? How did they plug the 1/4 inch hole dead center of the plastic "wad"?
That is interesting. I have found that when I pushed a PB through my bore (unloaded it through the breach), it was engraved with my rifling pattern. The grooves/lands were so defined, I was able to determine that I have 8 lands of right hand twist. They are easy to seat, but I doubt I could shake one out of my bore without slamming it crown first into the ground (or breach first if I take the plug out) and doing noticeable damage.
What types of guns / barrels are you seeing this in? Have you slugged the barrels to see what they actually measure? Just curious.
The really got the loose powder to stay in behind that plug without the bullet in there? How did they plug the 1/4 inch hole dead center of the plastic "wad"?
Wildfire
Member
??????????
Hey :
It will be hard for me to prove any thing. I was not there and every one has his own way of doing things.
I am just reporting what I have found in the past. I have no idea how he ended up with no bullet , other than , IT Fell out. Again , How did he load it ?? what happen ????
But I did try using PB's to test for accuracy ... They were not even in the ball park of what I call accurate bullets.
If they work for you and others , I can not dispute that , nor would I try.
But , fact is I have found other bullets and more so the SABOT's themselves to be junk and very inaccurate. None of the easy load {yellow} sabots work for fine accuracy.
If they just happen to in an others rifle , I can not argue with that.
Just reporting what I have found. Kind of wish now that I would not have been so curious and had all the money I spent testing all these off beat new fan dangled powders and bullets.
Hey :
It will be hard for me to prove any thing. I was not there and every one has his own way of doing things.
I am just reporting what I have found in the past. I have no idea how he ended up with no bullet , other than , IT Fell out. Again , How did he load it ?? what happen ????
But I did try using PB's to test for accuracy ... They were not even in the ball park of what I call accurate bullets.
If they work for you and others , I can not dispute that , nor would I try.
But , fact is I have found other bullets and more so the SABOT's themselves to be junk and very inaccurate. None of the easy load {yellow} sabots work for fine accuracy.
If they just happen to in an others rifle , I can not argue with that.
Just reporting what I have found. Kind of wish now that I would not have been so curious and had all the money I spent testing all these off beat new fan dangled powders and bullets.
scythefwd
Member
Wildfire,
I wasn't questioning you, I just wanted to know more. I used PB this year, as 3 inches in 100y groups is good enough when you hunt 30y areas. I will be working up a load with loose powder and T/C shockwaves this summer when I have more time so I can actually get a good group out of the gun.
I wasn't questioning you, I just wanted to know more. I used PB this year, as 3 inches in 100y groups is good enough when you hunt 30y areas. I will be working up a load with loose powder and T/C shockwaves this summer when I have more time so I can actually get a good group out of the gun.
Wildfire
Member
Save Time
Hey :
Save your self a lot of time.
80 grains of Pyrodex "P" {never 150}
Rem 209 ML primer.
Barnes MZ expander. also sold as RED HOTS by Knight.
These toss 1 hole or very darn close to it groups. Depends on me and the day. They have killed every deer they were tossed at. From 30 yards to so far 185 yards.
This is from an Encore with 1-28" twist.
The shock waves shoot extremely well for accuracy . Way under 1" at 100.
But !!!! I do not care for the bullets performance at the deer. The Barnes MZ
will expand 100% with zero weight lost. And is as accurate if not more so than the shock waves.
80 grains of "P" is about the same as 100 grains of RS. 300 grainers run at about 1550 fps and the 250s run at somewhere around the 1700 mark.
This is a proven load and has downed many deer for me and my son. Likely in the range of 25 plus deer have been taken now with this round.
I like big lead bullets. But these all copper wonders really whack em hard.
The tighter that sabot fits the better she will shoot.
We have a liberal deer season here in Michigan . We have killed many deer with this bullet and powder load. 80 grains may not seem like much but I am here to tell you No buck no matter how big will stand after being hit with this load. You will also eliminate tracking after shooting. They just fall down.
I find most of the 250s in the deer . We have only ever found 1 of the 300s in a deer. No matter they all just fall down.
Hey :
Save your self a lot of time.
80 grains of Pyrodex "P" {never 150}
Rem 209 ML primer.
Barnes MZ expander. also sold as RED HOTS by Knight.
These toss 1 hole or very darn close to it groups. Depends on me and the day. They have killed every deer they were tossed at. From 30 yards to so far 185 yards.
This is from an Encore with 1-28" twist.
The shock waves shoot extremely well for accuracy . Way under 1" at 100.
But !!!! I do not care for the bullets performance at the deer. The Barnes MZ
will expand 100% with zero weight lost. And is as accurate if not more so than the shock waves.
80 grains of "P" is about the same as 100 grains of RS. 300 grainers run at about 1550 fps and the 250s run at somewhere around the 1700 mark.
This is a proven load and has downed many deer for me and my son. Likely in the range of 25 plus deer have been taken now with this round.
I like big lead bullets. But these all copper wonders really whack em hard.
The tighter that sabot fits the better she will shoot.
We have a liberal deer season here in Michigan . We have killed many deer with this bullet and powder load. 80 grains may not seem like much but I am here to tell you No buck no matter how big will stand after being hit with this load. You will also eliminate tracking after shooting. They just fall down.
I find most of the 250s in the deer . We have only ever found 1 of the 300s in a deer. No matter they all just fall down.
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