Hollow Points vs Armor Penetrating in the news

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Stargazer65

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I was reading about that Phiily mom who was arrested in NJ for having a Bersa .380 pistol that was legal for her in PA.

She was charged also for bullets that are illegal in NJ:

One article says "armor penetrating"

Allen was charged with unlawful possession of a weapon and armor penetrating bullets.

and another says "hollow point"

During a trip to Atlantic City last October, Allen was arrested following a routine traffic stop and was charged with unlawful possession of a weapon and possession of hollow-point bullets.

Aren't they two different things?

I have hollow point bullets for my SD handguns and I was under the impression that they would be less likely to penetrate armor than the full metal jacket round nose bullets.
 
You've made the mistake of attributing knowledge of their subject matter to the mainstream media. Ignorance and sometimes seemingly willful stupidity or outright lies are the norm when reporting gun related news. Best to assume anything the media says about firearms is incorrect until corroborated by a reliable source.
 
^^^^
this.

I'm shocked they didn't try to call her Bersa a Glock, since as anyone in the news/media industry will tell you, all handguns are Glocks.*



*in exceptional cases, handguns can also be "magnums." Very. Very scary guns. Now, the elusive "magnum Glock"... thats like a unicorn-pegasis to the media!!!!
:D
 
Stargazer, yes, hollow point ammo and armor penetrating are two different styles of bullets. Hollow point bullets are designed to expand upon contact with the intended target. Armor penetrating ammo is designed not to expand but to penetrate barriers, producing neat little holes.
 
hollow points are forbidden in nj
Not exactly, but the law is complicated, and not even NJ Judges can figure it out reliably.

The problem is that New Jersey is a very corrupt State, with police, Prosecutors, and Judges operating on their personal belief of what they want the Law to be, rather than what it is.

The (one the few) anti-gun Republican Governor, doesn't help things any.
 
Funny, even the drug dealers on the show "Drugs Inc" on Nat Geo know the difference. The recent show in Memphis TN, had gang bangers with AK pistols. They said "we carry those armour penetrator rounds, AKA Cop Killers"

Which were simple FMJ bullets. Remember those scarry black talons? They were practically a RPG in a pistol round. :D
 
stargazer,

Whichever reporter writing that story is just reporting what he or she is told.

No fact-checking was done, and the news rooms are too ignorant to know any better.


The sooner you realize the media truly are idiots when it comes to this topic the sooner you'll stop being baffled when you see them flub the facts.

Hollow point bullets are illegal in NJ, and she's being charged one count for each one in the magazine. That's as much as you need to know.
 
Now I want to see HEI 9mm rounds....thanks alot guys.

Expecting the media to use the correct terms regarding firearms is like expecting snow in july. Not realistic
 
Well as long as they weren't .380 magnums (which I guess would be super 38's), or full metal frangibles, the charges couldn't be that bad right? :rolleyes: The media is a joke, and CNN is the worst of the lot.

If you asked someone in the media what a Hornady FTX bullet was, they would probably inform you that it stood for "F'ing Total X-plosion" bullet.

Oh, and Speer Gold Dots would undoubtedly be "Gangster Ammo", because the gold means they bling while being used in violent crimes.
 
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BullfrogKen said:
The sooner you realize the media truly are idiots when it comes to this topic the sooner you'll stop being baffled when you see them flub the facts.

You think it's bad with firearms, you should pay attention to how they report on aviation. I don't know how many Boeing DC-9 airbus tri-jets were made over the years, but every single one of them has been in the news at some point.

The media doesn't know much about anything at all, but they are very willing to tell you all about it.
 
BullFrogKen said:
Hollow point bullets are illegal in NJ,

It doesn't appear that they are illegal in NJ, just regulated. As with everything in NJ, it's as complicated as possible.

N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

http://www.njsp.org/about/fire_hollow.html
 
N.J.S.A 2C:39-3f(1) limits the possession of hollow nose ammunition. However, there is a general exception that allows for the purchase of this ammunition but restricts the possession of it to specified locations. This exception provides that:

(2) Nothing is sub section f (1) shall be construed to prevent a person from keeping such ammunition at his dwelling, premises or other land owned or possessed by him, or from carrying such ammunition from the place of purchase to said dwelling or land . . . [N.J.S.A 26:39-3g (2)].

Thus a person may purchase this ammunition and keep it within the confines of his property. Sub section f (1) further exempts from the prohibited possession of hollow nose ammunition "persons engaged in activities pursuant to N.J.S.A 2C:39-6f. . . ."
N.J.S.A 26:39-3f. (1).

I guess it will be up to her attorney to argue that her motor vehicle qualifies as a dwelling. In many states, your personal vehicle is considered to be an extension of your home (such as being able to conceal a loaded handgun that you are not licensed to carry concealed in public), but I've no idea how NJ laws read on that subject.

Aren't they two different things?

Yes, and while NJ restricts hollow points, federal law absolutely prohibits possession of armor piercing handgun ammunition by anyone other than Govt/LE.
 
I have heard New Jersey described as "Gun Owner Hell." I'm pretty sure that to anti-gun politicians, media persons, big city police chiefs, etc., all ammunition is either devestating explosive ~Black Talon~ extra deadly death rounds, or super high velocity armor piercing WMDs that can bring down jumbo jets, etc.........

Oh yea, If it's Government employees: Don't worry, we are professionals and all of the above ammunition is necessary to protect you, and the Children ;-D
 
Brought to you by the same people who depict entire cartridges flying through the air... FWIW, most 'hollowpoint' legislation is passed upon the lie that they are flat-out explosive; straight up. People think they "blow" massive holes through whatever and et cetera, which is why they vote to ban them. They actually think they are the same as armor piercing high explosive rounds, which is basically what ignoramuses think anything but a cast lead ball is.

Trying to explain how a full metal jacket makes the bullet more penetrative, or even what 'penetrative' means, or what a bullet is (ref: Mark Witashek) is pointless, because at that point they have realized the discussion is about guns and their fraidy-filter is at full throttle. At that point they're just trying to not have a nervous breakdown, and are unable to listen or have an intelligent conversation with you.

TCB
 
Part of the confusion comes from the fact that the same statute covers possession of both HP and AP ammo. The statute is 2C:39-3f, and is titled, "Dum-dum or body armor penetrating bullets". Paragraph (1) applies to HP ammo, while paragraph (2) applies to AP. The AP restriction is pretty much a mirror of the federal AP restriction (meaning, handgun ammo).

Since the woman was in possession of a handgun, and did not possess a NJ Permit to Carry a Handgun, and was not operating under one of the narrow exemptions provided for in either 2C:39-6e or 2C:39-6f, she was charged with violation of 2C:39-5b, Unlawful Possession of a Handgun.

Since her handgun contained hollowpoint ammunition, and she was not operating under one of the exemptions provided for in 2C:39-3g, or 2C:39-6f, she was charged with 2C:39-3f.

No, the fact that she possessed them in her car has no bearing on the charge, as NJ does not consider your vehicle to be a "dwelling".

And, even if she wanted ot come up with some after-the-fact explanation of going to a range (which would fall under the 2C:39-6f exemptions), she'd still have been charged, as her transport did not conform with 2C:39-6g (firearm unloaded, and contained in a securely fastened case, or locked in the trunk). The firearm was loaded, and contained in her purse (which she was rooting around in to retrieve her lic/reg/ins).

Realistically, her only hope is that the media attention pressures the county to re-evaluate, and allow her into the PTI program. Otherwise, she will be found guilty, and will be sentenced to a prison term of between 5 and 10 years, while having to serve a minimum of 3 years, due to another law (the Graves Act, 2C:43-6c).

Brian Aitken was a very similar case to this, and he wound up getting sentenced to 7 years (serving concurrent sentences for the unlawful possession of a handgun, unlawful possession of a large capacity magazine, and unlawful possession of hollowpoint ammunition).

Noteworthy is the fact that, after Aitken had his sentence commuted (not pardoned) by Gov. Christie, upon appeal, his conviction for the handgun was overturned due to his defense not being allowed to introduce evidence that he was moving at the time (which is a permitted exemption under the law). His conviction on the magazine was overturned, and the charge dismissed, due to the fact that the prosecution never proved that the magazine was capable of feeding more than 15 rounds directly into a semi-auto firearm (the arresting officer verified that the magazine held 16 rounds, but it was never test-fired). The conviction on the HP ammo remained, because even if it was concluded that he was, in fact, moving - there is no exemption to the law prohibiting HP ammo possession for moving from one residence to another. While it's legal to transport your handgun, you can't transport your HP ammo.

All brought to you by one of the original 13 adopters of the United States Constitution, and her included Bill of Rights. :cuss:
 
Ignorance and sometimes seemingly willful stupidity or outright lies are the norm when reporting gun related news.
You think it's bad with firearms, you should pay attention to how they report on aviation. I don't know how many Boeing DC-9 airbus tri-jets were made over the years, but every single one of them has been in the news at some point.
If the media consistently gets it wrong when reporting about topics you know about . . . how can you rely on them to get it right when they're reporting about topics you DON'T know about? :(
 
Deltaboy,

I'm quite sure Ms Allen didn't intend to cross over into New Jersey that day, either.


Unfortunately for her, if you miss that last exit off before the bridge you have no choice.

I've made that mistake and missed my exit just like she did, too.
 
media reports, stories and rumours

I too noticed the trend commented on above, which is that media seldom understand even the most fundamental aspects of a complex subject or story.

The usual approach is to infantilize the story so as not to challenge the audience's received ideas about whatever, which is how those 'Guns are bad and all guns are Glocks' stories get hatched, over and over again. Doing so is also much less work.

Every now and then, we have search & rescue efforts here in the mountains esp. during avalanche season. When a group gets whacked and there is a protracted search & recovery operation the media will flock to the area. The resulting news reports bear little resemblance to what is actually happening on the ground.

So we get stories instead of reports.
When it's breaking news, we get rumours instead of stories.
 
You know, Christie could refuse to enforce this Kafkaesque statute, and save a lot of lives from being ruined... just sayin'.

TCB
 
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