Holosun for CCW
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I have a Glock 22.5 with Holosun 507 that is a frequent carry, AIWB.
It took hundreds of rounds (800+) for my speed with dot to be on par with fixed sights, so question the validity opinions formed with limited exposure.
Also be wary of replies that just say an unelaborated something like, "fixed sights for me" or "fixed sight work fine for me"...
What may be getting omitted from a reply like that (IME) is they usually pocket carry a LCP or snub and a dot would not be compatible with their pocket.
It took hundreds of rounds (800+) for my speed with dot to be on par with fixed sights, so question the validity opinions formed with limited exposure.
Also be wary of replies that just say an unelaborated something like, "fixed sights for me" or "fixed sight work fine for me"...
What may be getting omitted from a reply like that (IME) is they usually pocket carry a LCP or snub and a dot would not be compatible with their pocket.
.38 Special
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I have an RMR on my Glock 29. I wanted it to be capable of 50 yard shots against a rifleman ("mass shooter" scenario) and the short sight radius made it much harder than it needed to be.
Cons:
The sight and the slide cut doubled the cost of the gun.
The batteries need to be changed every year or two. In this instance, that requires the sight be removed and then re-zeroed.
A dot sight requires significant training before it becomes as fast and natural as irons.
You may need a new holster.
Now, this should not be taken as an attack on dots for CCW. I believe they have their place. They are not, however, Panacea.
Anchorite
Member
Um, ya. Doubling the cost (if cut) plus the optic and changing batteries…..I’m not to that point yet. I even run open sights on my AR. I guess I’m still a Murphy’s law kinda-guy. I do, however, think such sights have their place.
I put the 507 EPS on my 365xl and it's nice. Yes it took me several hundred rounds to get used to but I shoot once or twice a week no matter.
Slide was cut so no cost there.
Shake awake so battery will last a bit.
No removal of sight to replace battery. The tray on the side slides out.
New holster but no big deal.
Thought I would never do it until I tried it and my groups at 15 yds tightened up a lot..
Slide was cut so no cost there.
Shake awake so battery will last a bit.
No removal of sight to replace battery. The tray on the side slides out.
New holster but no big deal.
Thought I would never do it until I tried it and my groups at 15 yds tightened up a lot..
JoeHenry
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I used a red dot on a 6” barrel 686 for NRA action pistol. For that game and for me it was better and faster than open sights. But I could never rap my head around an optic on a carry piece. Just an old fart I guess. Plus’s I pocket a J frame half the time.
doubleh
Member
I tried one with a Sig shake awake red dot. Since self defense here is up close in your face against a deadly threat with no other option open I decided irons sight are faster under those conditions. In fact I doubt sights will even come into play. Just point in the middle and hope you are the quickest. That ten places thing will get you a murder charge. No stand your ground law here.
10 places?
doubleh
Member
Sorry. Paces.
Lo-Profile
Member
Sig P365xl with a Holosun 407K-green
CapnMac
Member
I can't help you on Holosun pistol sights, as I run SIG Romeo Zero (if having a similar footprint).
I've not put RDS on all the possible carry pistols. But I have a bias to the SIG for carry.
I've not put RDS on all the possible carry pistols. But I have a bias to the SIG for carry.
Silly gimmicky idea to put optics on a CCW.
Better time and money investment to go to a solid defensive handgun class where you get to move and shoot at defensive handgun distances in Force on Force.
Range or gun game toys are easier than putting the work in, but they'll never come close to the results.
Better time and money investment to go to a solid defensive handgun class where you get to move and shoot at defensive handgun distances in Force on Force.
Range or gun game toys are easier than putting the work in, but they'll never come close to the results.
Several top defensive instructors (Scott Jedlinski, Brian Hill. John Corriea, Neil Weidner) are big fans of RDS for CCW. They see notable advantages, and also recommend them for LEO issue The other side of the coin is that several highly respected elder statesmen in the self defense instructor world (Tom Givens, Bill Wilson, Ken Hackathorn) are not so supportive, and even though quite familiar with the optics choose to carry iron sights. Search YouTube for any of the named instructors to learn their opinions directly.
All that said, I am in the RDS corner, with an EDC Holosun 509T. However, changing to an RDS does require many hundreds of dry fire and live fire events to embed the change in usage.
1. With RDS your focus is on the target all the time; no longer on the front sight.
- A few instructors are now teaching that with RDS, your RDS is REAR sight and target is your Front sight.
2. When using an RDS, do not waste time trying to place the dot in the center of the window; if the dot is anywhere in the window, you have it on an aim point.
- Corollary: if you have co-witnessed iron sights, do not try to use them together. The iron sights are for back up if the RDS fails.
3. Learning to find the dot in the window every draw is a matter of clean presentation with consistent movement into your view. There are several classes and YT videos showing the process, but essentially it is about building so-called muscle memory (modern term, myelination).
- And that improvement on presentation consistency will help any iron-sight shooter, too.
All that said, I am in the RDS corner, with an EDC Holosun 509T. However, changing to an RDS does require many hundreds of dry fire and live fire events to embed the change in usage.
1. With RDS your focus is on the target all the time; no longer on the front sight.
- A few instructors are now teaching that with RDS, your RDS is REAR sight and target is your Front sight.
2. When using an RDS, do not waste time trying to place the dot in the center of the window; if the dot is anywhere in the window, you have it on an aim point.
- Corollary: if you have co-witnessed iron sights, do not try to use them together. The iron sights are for back up if the RDS fails.
3. Learning to find the dot in the window every draw is a matter of clean presentation with consistent movement into your view. There are several classes and YT videos showing the process, but essentially it is about building so-called muscle memory (modern term, myelination).
- And that improvement on presentation consistency will help any iron-sight shooter, too.
Styx
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I use a Crimson Trace: CT Rad Micro Pro on my Shield Plus and Springfield Hellcat, and the Trijicon RMR on my double stack pistols.
The pros of the Rad Micro over the Holosun is that no optic plate is needed on Shield and Hellcat. It is affixed directly to the slide, so it sits low and co-witnesses with the red dot. Both my night sights and optic are visible, and can be utilized. I also do not have to spend more money on an optic plate. If it wasn't for that, I'd be using a Holosun, but you can't go wrong with either optic.
@Craig_VA pretty much covered most of the pros of pistol optics already.. Let me add:
Most micro red dots for single stacks and micro 9mm's (Hellcat, P365, etc) are under one ounce. The Holosuns, Trijicons RMRs, and the like for double stacks are around one ounce in weight. I doubt anyone who was blindfolded and had a red dot and non red dot pistol put in their holster could tell the difference.
As far as bulk goes, I personally haven't found it any harder to conceal or any printing when conceal carrying an optic on a pistol.
There are only two annoyances and cons for me. One is that dust deodorant particles, oils, etc build up on and around the glass that has to be cleaned regularly. It's a little more maintenance vs other pistols without the optic, but that's not really a big deal. The other is there are less holster options; however, options have become a LOT better vs in the past. It should be pretty easy to find a holster for most mainstream and popular makes/models.
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Styx
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I would also like to address the assertion from some members that red dots take much more training. I say that's not true at all. Both red dots AND irons requires about the same amount of training to have consistent presentation on the draw. The only difference is that they are more used to and put in the time to be competent with irons, but failed to do so with red dots.
Most who have thousands of rounds and training with irons will try a red dot once or twice if at all, and then will claim it's slower than irons. Well duh! I guarantee that if they've been shooting using optics for years, and then tried irons for the first time, they'd be embarrassingly much slower using irons! With that said, those who put in the time and effort and are open minded into being efficient with both irons and optics will typically be faster and more accurate, especially at longer distances) with pistol optics.
To share my personal experience only: It's been my and some other member's person experience that the our optics still were zeroed even after changing the batteries. The optic usually sits firm on the lugs thus not really changing the zero, but I reckon that's contingent on the quality of the plate, optic cut, and/or optic.
What I do is to simply change the batteries while I'm already at the range. It takes 3 or so minutes out of the 525,600 minutes in one year. Then I confirm while shooting at the range, but like I said, I personally never had to make any adjustments. I also have a 9mm Sightmark laser bore sight that I use to zero at home if I wish. Not referring to you @.38 Special, but I never found swapping out the sights on an optic to be the PITA that some claim it to be at all.
Most who have thousands of rounds and training with irons will try a red dot once or twice if at all, and then will claim it's slower than irons. Well duh! I guarantee that if they've been shooting using optics for years, and then tried irons for the first time, they'd be embarrassingly much slower using irons! With that said, those who put in the time and effort and are open minded into being efficient with both irons and optics will typically be faster and more accurate, especially at longer distances) with pistol optics.
Not to be argumentative, but you were ripped off if you paid $350-$500 for an aftermarket slide with an optic cut or to have your existing slide cut. I just checked again to make sure things haven't changed, but I still see multiple places doing it for around $125-$150. I'm assuming you got a great deal on a used Glock or something, or did you buy another factory slide and have it cut afterwards?
To share my personal experience only: It's been my and some other member's person experience that the our optics still were zeroed even after changing the batteries. The optic usually sits firm on the lugs thus not really changing the zero, but I reckon that's contingent on the quality of the plate, optic cut, and/or optic.
What I do is to simply change the batteries while I'm already at the range. It takes 3 or so minutes out of the 525,600 minutes in one year. Then I confirm while shooting at the range, but like I said, I personally never had to make any adjustments. I also have a 9mm Sightmark laser bore sight that I use to zero at home if I wish. Not referring to you @.38 Special, but I never found swapping out the sights on an optic to be the PITA that some claim it to be at all.
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Styx, You might want to edit or delete pics that show the S/N. I wanted to send a PM but your profile is restricted so could not send privately.
And thanks for the acknowledgement on my post.
Lennyjoe
Member
Red dots take some getting used to. Recommend you spend quality range time with one before committing to PD with it.
That being said, it’s from personal experience so you may pick it up faster. I have Holosun 507’s on 2 of my 10MM pistols.
That being said, it’s from personal experience so you may pick it up faster. I have Holosun 507’s on 2 of my 10MM pistols.
.38 Special
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It's not that dots take more training than do irons. It's that dots take as much training. If a fellow has never fired a gun before, then he probably can learn at least as quickly with a dot as with irons. If he's got decades of experience with irons, though, he's got some work to do to get up to speed with the dot.
As for the cost, iirc the slide cut was $150 with shipping. The sight itself was 450 bucks, which was the best price I could find. 450+150=about the price of a new Glock 29.
As for battery changes and re-zeroing, I hope you are right. I have not yet needed to change the battery, so have no personal experience.
I dont have my ccw permit yet, working on it. Ive had a dot on my g3c since Christmas and i like it. Havent changed the battery and i play with it every day or two.
Ive had zero formal shooting also, so that might well play into my experience.
Something ive noticed since ive been practicing with it, and having spent alot of time shooting living critters (not people)
One of the reasons I prefer scopes for hunting is I don't actually watch the aiming point, I'm watching the target behind it. This is especially true a short range or if the target's moving. I've shot animals with my front scope cap closed.
With a pistol and a red. I do much the same thing. Gun comes up I watch the target and there's a shiny little dot on it, im not focusing on the dot. With open sights I'm really only using the front, and while i have little issue keeping shots on a target at short range, I find my journal awareness and precision is better with the.
All things equal im faster with opens getting the gun on target then I am with a dot, but my focus is split between the sites and the target.
With the dot I'm just watching the target
Ive had zero formal shooting also, so that might well play into my experience.
Something ive noticed since ive been practicing with it, and having spent alot of time shooting living critters (not people)
One of the reasons I prefer scopes for hunting is I don't actually watch the aiming point, I'm watching the target behind it. This is especially true a short range or if the target's moving. I've shot animals with my front scope cap closed.
With a pistol and a red. I do much the same thing. Gun comes up I watch the target and there's a shiny little dot on it, im not focusing on the dot. With open sights I'm really only using the front, and while i have little issue keeping shots on a target at short range, I find my journal awareness and precision is better with the.
All things equal im faster with opens getting the gun on target then I am with a dot, but my focus is split between the sites and the target.
With the dot I'm just watching the target
Just like anything else you have to try it and adapt. My old self was in that "I don't need no stinking dot" mode until I gave in and tried one. I don't own any range toys with dots. The pistols I have with dots are tools. They are also used in defensive pistol drills with shoot and move scenarios. To each his own...
I was against the idea of optic on a defensive pistol for several years but saw their advantage on range or competition pistols. But about two years ago I started seeing the possible advantages so I decided to buy an MOS Glock and give it a try. I chose the Glock for the fact that I truly hate shooting Glock pistols due to the trigger and ergonomics so it would really be more of a test to see if I liked the dot not the pistol and that once that decision was made I could sell the gun quickly for about the same amount I paid for it.
After a few hundred "rounds" of dry-fire draw and fire drills with the dot I decided to take it to the range and see how it stacked up with my custom duty/competition M&P that I have around 25,000 rounds through. First outing, shooting a 6" target at seven yards, I averaged 2.1 draw and fire with the Glock and 1.8 with the M&P but shooting a B8 target at 25 yards I shot a 96 with the Glock compared to 86 with the M&P. That encouraged me to spend another few months shooting the Glock, around 1,000 rounds, and I ended up with my first round averaging 1.7. Borrowed a friends M&P with optic just to make sure that it wasn't a fluke coincidence and the M&P with a dot averaged 1.6 for a draw and fire.
So I pulled the dot off the Glock and sold it, then bought a Canik Rival with optic. First time shooting it and I was already averaging 1.6 and now have gotten that to around 1.4. That alone made my decision for me so I have ordered a replacement carry pistol, swapping from a non OSP Hellcat to a Hellcat Pro and mounted a Holosun 507K, and have since bought a Sig P320 X-Carry Pro and added a Holosun SCS on it to replace the M&P.
So I guess you could say that I'm all in on pistol optics now.
Oh, and I guess that I should add that I am far from a beginner at shooting a handgun since when I was actively competing in IDPA I was in the master class in SSP, ESP, and CDP, but in fairness I've been out of practice for a few years now so I am no longer quite at that level.
After a few hundred "rounds" of dry-fire draw and fire drills with the dot I decided to take it to the range and see how it stacked up with my custom duty/competition M&P that I have around 25,000 rounds through. First outing, shooting a 6" target at seven yards, I averaged 2.1 draw and fire with the Glock and 1.8 with the M&P but shooting a B8 target at 25 yards I shot a 96 with the Glock compared to 86 with the M&P. That encouraged me to spend another few months shooting the Glock, around 1,000 rounds, and I ended up with my first round averaging 1.7. Borrowed a friends M&P with optic just to make sure that it wasn't a fluke coincidence and the M&P with a dot averaged 1.6 for a draw and fire.
So I pulled the dot off the Glock and sold it, then bought a Canik Rival with optic. First time shooting it and I was already averaging 1.6 and now have gotten that to around 1.4. That alone made my decision for me so I have ordered a replacement carry pistol, swapping from a non OSP Hellcat to a Hellcat Pro and mounted a Holosun 507K, and have since bought a Sig P320 X-Carry Pro and added a Holosun SCS on it to replace the M&P.
So I guess you could say that I'm all in on pistol optics now.
Oh, and I guess that I should add that I am far from a beginner at shooting a handgun since when I was actively competing in IDPA I was in the master class in SSP, ESP, and CDP, but in fairness I've been out of practice for a few years now so I am no longer quite at that level.
entropy
Member
Yup. 507k X2
You must dry fire practice with a dot sight quite a bit, then affirm that with live fire practice before carrying with one. Your draw must be consistent for that dot to be where it's needed.
I'll also add that I highly recommend anyone who is considering swapping to a RDS from irons, or really anyone for that matter, to buy a laser and reactive target. They might seem a bit expensive but you can practice in the house and the batteries and striker on the laser lasts several thousand uses. I've tried several and have settled on these.
Target - KEIRON Speed
Laser - G-Sight ELMS
Target - KEIRON Speed
Laser - G-Sight ELMS
Buzznrose
Member
At 60, I put an optic on every gun I reasonably can. Most of my carry guns and all my boonies guns have optics.
Why?
1. I can see BOTH my target and the sight. Nothing is blurry when I press the trigger.
2. I can hit targets much better father out.
3. Adapting to red dot may seem. Like a hurdle to overcome but it really isn’t with a bit of proper practice.
YMMV
Why?
1. I can see BOTH my target and the sight. Nothing is blurry when I press the trigger.
2. I can hit targets much better father out.
3. Adapting to red dot may seem. Like a hurdle to overcome but it really isn’t with a bit of proper practice.
YMMV
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