Holosun for CCW

Optics on handguns are the way to go now. I've been to too many combatives based classes now where the guys with red dots are shooting the pants off those who don't in every metric. In a few years I believe we'll be to the point where not having a pistol optic will be as unimaginable as not having an optic of some sort on an AR.

Holosun makes excellent red dots. One of their options would be my first choice.
 
Buzznrose said:
Can we really go by a LEO gun since they are largely required to follow department policy?
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I'm not aware of any departments that mandate a pistol optic but rather those that allow it. I've seen many L.E. who have RMRs and their duty gun and many who don't from the same department....

As an aside not direct at you @Buzznrose: I don't understand the logic behind those who find optics acceptable and useful on range toys, on rifles, and for competition shooting, but feel like they aren't useful or offer the same advantage for self-defense use???? Can someone explain this thought process?
 
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Buzznrose said:
Can we really go by a LEO gun since they are largely required to follow department policy?
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LE doesn't count?
I don't know about that; when I was LE decades ago the dept. still issued revolvers but I carried a personally owned (dept. approved) Glock 17 then 21.
I already posted my 22.5 and now my 20SF - with Holosun 507 - I like the side battery access.
Glock20SF.jpg
 
Just to clarify...I know the policies on two local PD's. Both issue service guns, and the officers get them the way they are issues and no deviations. One allows SWAT team to use extended mags while regular LEO's can only use standard cap mags.

Guess what I'm inferring is from my limited vision, officers don't get a choice either way.

YMMV
 
The experience of a friend of mine (who teaches RDS training for line staff users and RDS instructors) is that the average cop shooter, no matter previous experience, can demonstrate a significant benefit in using RDS on duty and off-duty weapons after an 8hr RDS transition training class. By the end of that class virtually everyone is better served using RDS for fast and demanding situations.

Yes, threat focus replaces front sight focus.

The size of the dot matters, too. The 6 MOA dot I tried the other day, turned up high by the owner, wouldn't be my preference.

If I were starting over again, or still working as a cop and serving as an instructor & armorer, I'd be pushing for RDS. I won't be modifying any of my older weapons to accept dots, but if I were buying new pistols I'd look at models that came factory-equipped with RDS.

I won't be giving up my J-frames, though. The other day when I ran a LEOSA qual using one of my M&P 340's, a couple of the instructors commented that a lot of their people would give anything to shoot that well, even with their dots. That course-of-fire involved short distances, though, meaning the longest distance was only 10yds. I'm not sure my eyes would be as sharp if I were to run my J's out to 30-50yds like I did a few years ago. A 2 or 4 MOA dot would likely be nice at those longer handgun ranges with aging eyes, though. Some day a miniature RDS for a J-frame may become an attractive option.
 
fastbolt said:
The experience of a friend of mine (who teaches RDS training for line staff users and RDS instructors) is that the average cop shooter, no matter previous experience, can demonstrate a significant benefit in using RDS on duty and off-duty weapons after an 8hr RDS transition training class. By the end of that class virtually everyone is better served using RDS for fast and demanding situations.

Yes, threat focus replaces front sight focus.

The size of the dot matters, too. The 6 MOA dot I tried the other day, turned up high by the owner, wouldn't be my preference.

If I were starting over again, or still working as a cop and serving as an instructor & armorer, I'd be pushing for RDS. I won't be modifying any of my older weapons to accept dots, but if I were buying new pistols I'd look at models that came factory-equipped with RDS.

I won't be giving up my J-frames, though. The other day when I ran a LEOSA qual using one of my M&P 340's, a couple of the instructors commented that a lot of their people would give anything to shoot that well, even with their dots. That course-of-fire involved short distances, though, meaning the longest distance was only 10yds. I'm not sure my eyes would be as sharp if I were to run my J's out to 30-50yds like I did a few years ago. A 2 or 4 MOA dot would likely be nice at those longer handgun ranges with aging eyes, though. Some day a miniature RDS for a J-frame may become an attractive option.
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I'm sort of like you. I don't ever see myself putting a RD on a revolver, 1911, or even any none striker-fired handgun. Any classic metal frame handguns will only have irons as well. That said, I still see RD as just another useful tool. IMHO, it's a useful skill to become efficient with both irons and optics whether on a handgun or rifle. I don't see the point in shunning either option.
 
Buzznrose said:
IF the officers got a choice, that makes sense. Not all do.
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Some officers go the other way. I was talking to one last night that did not want a red dot on his duty gun, and he was tapped by the Sherriff to train everyone on the soon to be mandatory red dots. He is not happy about it.
 
Buzznrose said:
At 60, I put an optic on every gun I reasonably can. Most of my carry guns and all my boonies guns have optics.

Why?

1. I can see BOTH my target and the sight. Nothing is blurry when I press the trigger.

2. I can hit targets much better father out.

3. Adapting to red dot may seem. Like a hurdle to overcome but it really isn’t with a bit of proper practice.

YMMV
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#1 for sure as my eyesight is getting worse with age.
 
I agree with Ken Hackathorn's thoughts on RDS on pistols.

www.youtube.com

Ken Hackathorn analyzes Red Dot Sights on handguns and gives the pros and cons - Masterclass EP 31

Ken Hackathorn takes a detailed look at the newest trend - the mounted red dot sight on self-defense handguns. He owns quite a few and has fired thousands o...
www.youtube.com www.youtube.com

I working on shooting with RDS pistols and am not there yet. I've been shooting pistols since 1988. Red dots on pistols is not natural compared to focusing on the front sight.

Red Dots of rifles are fantastic. Red Dots on Pistols takes work, practice, and round count to get used to it.
 
Yes, I see a trend of most, not all, older shooters who have been shooting with irons for decades being the most critical. Those who are mostly 50 or younger are less critical and prefer red dots or at least see them as being faster and more beneficial. Ken Hackathorn and other old schoolers included. I reckon It's more difficult to transition to something new when it's ingrained in you to do it a particular way for several decades.

What I find interesting with one of Hackathorn's comments was with regards to new shooters. He says optics are a terrible idea for new shooters, but I've heard the opposite based on my limited experience and based on what I've heard several firearm trainers say with their experience of dealing with new shooters.
 
drobs said:
Red dots on pistols is not natural compared to focusing on the front sight.
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Actually, it is the other way around. The truly natural response to a threat is to focus on that threat; that is exactly what a dot lets you do. No more "correcting" your focus from the threat back to your front sight. For all who have spent many years, many hours, learning and practicing front sight focus, it feels unnatural to have a gun up and not focus on the front sight. That is why those who work on RDS training emphasize the need for hundreds or thousands of repetitions to unlearn the unnatural front sight focus. That is also why some assert that starting a new shooter from scratch with a dot will be as easy, or even easier, than traditional sight alignment / picture training.
 
Craig_VA said:
Actually, it is the other way around. The truly natural response to a threat is to focus on that threat; that is exactly what a dot lets you do. No more "correcting" your focus from the threat back to your front sight. For all who have spent many years, many hours, learning and practicing front sight focus, it feels unnatural to have a gun up and not focus on the front sight. That is why those who work on RDS training emphasize the need for hundreds or thousands of repetitions to unlearn the unnatural front sight focus. That is also why some assert that starting a new shooter from scratch with a dot will be as easy, or even easier, than traditional sight alignment / picture training.
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I agree. Easier for a new shooter to pick up RDS pistols than us old guys.
 
This subject will be discussed forever because it is largely based on personal preference, how an individual has previously trained, and the large number of combinations of handguns and electronic sights.
I am all for tools that help new shooters be more proficient; for those with eyesight issues to shoot better; for the ability to shoot smaller groups at longer distances than most people with iron sights ever could.
The cons include a greater propensity that an electronic sight may fail (and training required for using backup sights); the need to keep up with batteries (sometimes odd sizes of coin cells, re-zero if necessary); the general issue that not all dot sights work well with all handguns (sight shape/weight affecting firearm function, certain firearms that greatly benefit from larger window sizes, adapter plate issues) ; holster choices/availability ( although this has changed for the better); and budget/cost.

Just as handgun choice is a very personal preference, so is the handgun's sighting system.
 
.38 Special said:
View attachment 1171892

I have an RMR on my Glock 29. I wanted it to be capable of 50 yard shots against a rifleman ("mass shooter" scenario) and the short sight radius made it much harder than it needed to be.

Cons:

The sight and the slide cut doubled the cost of the gun.

The batteries need to be changed every year or two. In this instance, that requires the sight be removed and then re-zeroed.

A dot sight requires significant training before it becomes as fast and natural as irons.

You may need a new holster.

Now, this should not be taken as an attack on dots for CCW. I believe they have their place. They are not, however, Panacea.
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Very nice setup.
 
Craig_VA said:
Actually, it is the other way around. The truly natural response to a threat is to focus on that threat; that is exactly what a dot lets you do. No more "correcting" your focus from the threat back to your front sight. For all who have spent many years, many hours, learning and practicing front sight focus, it feels unnatural to have a gun up and not focus on the front sight. That is why those who work on RDS training emphasize the need for hundreds or thousands of repetitions to unlearn the unnatural front sight focus. That is also why some assert that starting a new shooter from scratch with a dot will be as easy, or even easier, than traditional sight alignment / picture training.
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Excellent post.

I suspect - but cannot prove - that it is easier for beginners to learn a dot. I do recall one young fellow who saw me at the range with a dot and half-jokingly said I was "cheating": he was just starting out and had found that he hit so much better with a dot that he felt it must be somehow unfair, and so had committed to learning how to shoot the "real" way.

And of course the basic premise of the dot - just hold it on what you want to hit and press the trigger - is much simpler. The only concern that I have is that being able to see the target clearly encourages "drive by" shooting: waiting until the dot wobbles over the bull and then slapping at the trigger, which of course doesn't work especially well.
 
My personal experience is that it is easy enough to take a complete newbie and teach him - in one afternoon - how to group into, say, four inches at seven yards with irons if he is willing to listen! Whereas almost anyone can achieve the same with a dot, with hardly any instruction at all, and even if they're only half paying attention to their instructor. The trick is shrinking that four inch group to two inches, or one, and then extending the range out to 25 or 50 yards without things going completely to hell. The iron sight shooter - again in my own experience - tends to continue applying the principles and thus continue to get hits. The dot shooter, though, tends not to apply the principles - or really even to understand them - and so runs into a wall pretty quickly.

It may be wise to start a first-timer with a dot, simply for instant gratification. Irons, though, need to be introduced very early on, if the shooter is to continue to progress. I strongly suspect that anyone who is not trained in the principles of iron sights is going to have an unnecessarily difficult time learning how to hit anything smaller than an IPSC target right up in his face. Of course, that may be completely inconsequential, if a fellow is interested in handguns only for defensive use...
 
A friend of mine has a big bunch of RDS sights on many pistols from a couple of revolvers, including a nasty looking S&W 28-2 to new polymer and metal pistols. None of his Holosun RDS's have had any issues, even on AR's. I have 2 407k's, a Cyelee, an "EAA", and a Riton on my Taurus TX-22 Compact. I have no doubts the Holosuns will be fine, but the others are yet to prove themselves.
 
sgmdcw said:
I've never tried one, but I will on my 10mm since it came optics ready. Just mounted it today.

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That picture causes me to want to go to LGS and pick one ups. This past week, they had 2 on the shelf. A standard model and a performance center model. Looking forward to a shooting report on this setup.
Thanks
CDW4ME said:
Stop making me want that. :cool:
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Such an enabler.
 
I only have one Red Dot currently and it's not on a CCW handgun. I have it mounted on a Wilderness Carry. A Glock 20 gen5.
I am currently faster back on target with my XDM compact 10mm.
With more time practicing the red dot will be just as fast. Red dots became popular in competition because of there speed to get back on target.
20230918_084226.jpg
 
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Silly gimmicky idea to put optics on a CCW.
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At one time maybe. We are living in the 21st century now and things have come a long way.

I'm not ready to put one on a small gun that needs to be carried concealed, at least not yet, but that could change. Not because I don't like the sight, but because it adds to the bulk of the gun that I don't want. But on a duty pistol or something open carried the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. They will be standard issue on most LE pistols in a decade or less.

This is one of those things I didn't think I'd like until I tried it. IMO a dot sight on a pistol makes more sense than on a rifle.
 
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