Home Defense for amateurs -- Marlin Model 60 .22LR?

[MatthewVanitas]

We've covered this topic inside other threads, but I thought'd it would be good to have an exclusive thread to cover this particular topic. Sure beats yet another .308/.223 topic.

I'm well aware that there are tons of other options out there, but pratically all (except 30-cal milsurps and single-shot shotguns) cost more than a used Marlin, and neither of the above is a good newbie SD gun.

I'd like to focus on whether the Board thinks that the Marlin Model 60 could be a decent Home Defense firearm for less-experienced shooters, particularly those of lower income, those too young to own a handgun, and primarily those with minimal training.

Here's my reasoning:

1) Inexpensive -- used Glenfields with good bores are as low as $55 here in Austin, brand-spanking-new are $99 at Academy Sports.

2) Low recoil/blast -- self-evident

3) Very cheap and easy to train on -- good for folks who might only get to the range a couple times a year; can afford to run 500 rounds through it per trip for $9.

4) Easy to get into action: provided no kids in the house, can be stored uncocked, no round in chamber, safety off. If needed, pick up and rack bolt. If not needed at that exact second, put on safety until needed.

My line of thinking: if I had a responsible young friend with minimal cash and the need for a home defense rifle, I'd at least consider taking him to the pawnshop to help him pick out a good Glenfield, then a trip to the range to shoot a brick, accompanied by extensive safety lessons. Take them back to the range a couple times a year to make sure the rifle still works and the safe handling is still in the brain.

Opinions from the board?

-MV

 

[Mad Chemist]

It's a good one to start them on until they can afford the .30-.30.

 

[rustymaggot]

for beginners, a single shot shotgun with a chopped down 19 inch barrel. in a hd situation beginners will probably forget everything after they have pulled the trigger. with a 22 rifle they may forget that they have more shots, or possibly just freeze up. so, might as well give em a shell that will one shot stop the badguy. a beginner probably wont have presence of mind to make accurate follow up shots. with a 22 the only reason its usefull for hd is because of the low recoil and lesser noise. but you have to hit the badguy over and over with it or he may not stop.

as far as price goes, a 22 rifle is definately affordable. so is a old funky single shot 12 gauge. even double barrels can be cheap. ive seen mossberg 500 pumps go for as low as 70 dollars online. after shipping and transfer they arent much over 100 dollars.

 

[wayne in boca]

There was a case a few years ago where a woman out west killed a grizzly (attempting to break into her cabin ) with a .22 LR by shooting him in the head 17 times at point blank range.However,grizzlies do not shoot back.For self defense against armed humans,something with a little more zing would certainly be preferable.A shotgun comes immediately to mind.An intruder is less likely to return fire if he has a hole or holes in him big enough to throw a cat through.

 

[rustymaggot]

There was a case a few years ago where a woman out west killed a grizzly (attempting to break into her cabin ) with a .22 LR by shooting him in the head 17 times at point blank range.However,grizzlies do not shoot back.For self defense against armed humans,something with a little more zing would certainly be preferable.A shotgun comes immediately to mind.An intruder is less likely to return fire if he has a hole or holes in him big enough to throw a cat through.

ok, the picture you just painted in my head............ amazing, utterly amazing. im gonna have the image of a cat getting tossed thru a chest wound for the rest of the morning.

 

[bakert]

Although I favor bigger calibers, 5, 6 or more shots with a .22 rifle would probably make most home invaders cease and desist from further aggression.

 

[robert garner]

viable option

wonder howw many 00 bucks hit deer at 30 yds?
a single 22 has as much impact as a single oo buck and is very easy to control
5-6 of em would do for most anything.
However the thought of using such by an untrained disinterested party???
thats scairy

 

[atblis]

In my experience

I haven't found the Model 60s to be that reliable. Also they can be tricky to clear a jam. In my experience the 10/22 tends to be a bit more reliable (though there are some bad 10/22s out there).

That being said, I think a good semi auto 22 rifle would be just fine for home defense. You can get plenty of penetration from a 22lr.

Here's some internet derived info for you (no way to verify this but it's still interesting)

The Israelis use 10/22 on the Palestinians (this is true). They were using them to "disperse crowds". Come to find out the little 22lr is a bit more affective than they orginally thought.

 

[Preacherman]

I teach disabled and handicapped shooters, and some of them, due to physical limitations, can't manage more than .22-level recoil in long guns. I've had no problem teaching them to use a quality .22LR rifle as a plinking and defence long gun, and I'd certainly not want to have to face them using it on me! I usually recommend a load such as CCI's Velocitor, which has a heavier bullet and better penetration than a standard .22LR round. I also advise them to train until they can hit a rolling table-tennis ball at 20 yards with 9 rounds out of 10. Finally, I advise them to aim for the "golden triangle" (the triangle formed by the space between the eyebrows down to the edges of the moutn) and let fly with at least 6 rounds. I don't think any BG is going to be arguing with them after that...

 

[Puppy]

My model 60 is a jamomatic, I wont ever get rid of it though because I have had it since I was a little kid.

Anyway used 12 gauge pumps can usually be had for about 150 bucks if ya shop around a bit.

I mean if they already had a model 60 and couldnt afford to buy anything else, well then their model 60 is a better option than begging and pleading with a crazed crackhead intruder not to harm them....

 

[Onmilo]

A fistful of pellets in the face always beats a clean miss with a big rock.

Mel Tappen was a big advocate of Glenfield Model 60 rifles for budget defense guns.

There are better options available today,I.E. a Ruger 10/22 with a reliable 30 shot magazine.

Still the argument and cause is as valid today as it was in Tappens heyday.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

First rule of gunfighting: Have a gun.

That said, there are better choices for a neophyte than a semiauto .22 rifle. When I had a Marlin 60 it had reliability issues, whereas I've found 10/22s to be much more reliable. However, they are still .22s.

If you must use a .22 I'd recommend high speed solids to get maximum penetration. Hollow points may not make it deep enough to damage the vitals. In my experience, CCI makes the most reliable rimfire ammo so I'd select .22 LR Mini Mag Solids.

A High Point 995 Carbine in 9mm can be had new for under $200, and may often be found used for around $100. It shoots a much more powerful round, has little recoil or blast, and by all accounts is accurate and reliable. They're pretty light, too, so someone who's small statured should be able to handle it easily. Since they take detachable box magazines the gun can be stored completely unloaded if circumstances require. It's also much simpler to clear the gun or reload than with a tubular mag as found on the Marlin 60.

If one's budget allows a used Marlin Camp Carbine in 9mm can be obtained for about $250. They are reliable, accurate, well made, ergonomic, and take easily available and cheap S&W 59xx mags.

For someone who's not a regular shooter a 9mm carbine makes more sense for HD than a .22 rifle, IMO.

 

[Mulliga]

I've always found my model 60-type .22 to be considerably more reliable than my friend's Ruger and Savage autoloaders (the 10/22s always had severe magazine-related issues), so I suppose there's good and bad of all types.

The problem with a 9mm carbine is that you get into all sorts of legal hubbub about whether you can buy the ammo. At Wal-Mart you can tell them it's "for a rifle," but I know some gun shops won't sell an 18 year-old 9mm ammo.

Perhaps the best thing to be said about a cheap .22 plinker as a first HD gun is that you never outgrow it. When you finally have the cash, training, age, etc. to upgrade, you can still use the .22 as a survival rifle and as a trainer for youngsters.

 

[pauli]

if it ever comes down to me telling my sister "take mom and the dogs and hide in her bedroom," i'd be sending her with my 39a and a box of minimags... but only because i haven't familiarized her with the 12ga nef (believe it or not, *i* haven't fired the darn thing yet).

a 22 should be relied on for self defense because you already have it and nothing better. it's not the sort of thing you set out to get for hd (excepting preacherman's students).

 

[Dr.Rob]

a .22 was all my dad had as a 'defense' gun for years. It's not the 'best' choice but if used accruately... a good choice.

I'd recommend the clip fed versions ofver the tube mags though. Less rounds but can be stored seperately. I've got a 995 I've had for 20 some years that works just fine.

Marlin & Remington also make a 22 mag semi-autos for around $150 new.

 

[Cueball]

For learning to shoot, a 22 is the best way to go... for HD, no way. Get a cheap used 12ga shotgun for the HD and a 22 to learn/play with

 

[MatthewVanitas]

@DrRob: I understand that a mag-fed is easier to store unloaded, but I figure that a tub-fed is more reliable (one big strong spring with no feed lips), and storing unloaded is a lesser issue with no kids in the house.

@rustymaggot: I had specifically considered a cut-down used NEF/H&R, which may go for around $50 if one shops around (yes, know some folks find them for $15 at garage sales, but not anywhere I've lived). But I'm not sure that a single-shot is the best bet for an inexperienced shooter. If you panic and flinch on your one shot, you're down to stickfighting. Definitely better than the 60 for power, but not much margin for error.

@robertgarner:

However the thought of using such by an untrained disinterested party??? thats scairy

I look at it this way: every other American household has at least one gun, and I sure as heck don't see half my neighborhood at the shooting range every month.

Someone with a clean, loaded Model 60 behind the headboard, who runs a brick through it every six months, is probably in the 70th percentile as far as preparedness goes. Puts a guy/gal far ahead of the "we've got Uncle Joe's 38-whatchamajigger in the sock drawer, and a couple bullets out in the shed" national average.

wonder howw many 00 bucks hit deer at 30 yds? a single 22 has as much impact as a single oo buck and is very easy to control 5-6 of em would do for most anything.

Now that's a pretty good point. The Marlin 60 carries 14 rounds in the tube, so that gives you plenty of chances to get a lot of lead downrange.

The Hi-Point seems the best alternative to the 60, in terms of price/capacity/ease of use, though not as cheap to train on, nor as likely to last 80 years with minimal care.

-MV

 

[middy]

I would not feel undergunned with my Marlin 60 against 1 or 2 assailants armed with handguns or hand-tohand weapons.

I've had exactly one easily-cleared jam with my 60 in about 3000 rounds, and I can shoot all 14 in the tube in 2-3 seconds.

 

[losangeles]

You can buy a used low-end 12-gauge shotgun for cheap these days.

 

[MatthewVanitas]

You can buy a used low-end 12-gauge shotgun for cheap these days.

Granted, though usually not $50 low.

More importantly, I don't think a shotgun is a good option for someone who is new to guns and may only practice a couple times a year.

I've owned and fired a wide variety of firearms, trained on M16A2/SAW/M240G/Mk19/M2, and yet the last time someone handed me an 870, it took me forever to figure out how the "bolt release" worked, until someone carefully explained it to me. It's not a particularly intuitive piece of gear.

A shotgun has more blast/recoil than a .22 in practically every gauge, newbies may be inclined to short-stroke on a pump, ammo costs more for practice and many ranges don't allow shot, and even youth models are bulkier and heavier than the 60. I don't deny that a shotgun can be a great HD weapon, I just question whether it's a comfortable option for most newbies.

(I am, to some degree, playing devil's advocate on many of these points, but I still maintain that the 60 is not an unreasonable choice under certain circumstances)

-MV

 

[atblis]

10/22 Magazines can be quite problematic

I've just had more problems out of 60s than 10/22s
This is based on
3-4 60s
5-6 10/22s

 

[hillbilly]

A Marlin Model 60 would sure beat a big rock or a sharp, pointy stick in a self-defense situation.

Not my choice at all, but hey, use what you got.

I just would not advocate somebody deliberately choosing to have only a Marlin Model 60 on hand, with so many other, more powerful choices out there.

Hey, for $50, you can even pick up a beater Mosin Nagant M44 or something like that.

Yeah, only five shots and bolt action, but would you want to go down a hallway facing a determined homeowner holding an M44 carbine, especially if he had the bayonet extended?????

Yeeesh............

hillbilly

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Hey, for $50, you can even pick up a beater Mosin Nagant M44 or something like that.

Yeah, only five shots and bolt action, but would you want to go down a hallway facing a determined homeowner holding an M44 carbine, especially if he had the bayonet extended?????

The MN 38 or 44 had also occurred to me: compact, reliable, inexpensive in rifle and ammo, etc.

However:

1) Danged hard to train on: I'd imagine the 95% of newbies who aren't genetically-bred for enjoying recoil will be turned off by the experience.

2) If anything is going to cause a newbie to flinch while firing the crucial HD shot, memories of the M44 range trip is gonna do it.

3) Unless you have a ton of open space around your property, firing 7.62x54R hardball in a modern pressboard house might cause a swift decline in neighboring property values. Yes, I know .22LR can penetrate some drywall, but comparatively speaking...

4) A MN44 has some of the same defects as the NEF single-shot, in that I really don't see someone getting off a second shot in an HD scenario. After the first fireball erupts in the room, the target is going to either be diving out a window, lying on the ground, or charging the homeowner. Unless you're firing across the Grand Ballroom, I imagine that a charging miscreant can cross the room and grapple before the homeowner can recover, rework the bolt, and present. So I'd say the NEF has the edge over the MN44.

At this point, for the scenario in question (inexperienced person willing to use firearms but not highly proficient, with very minimal spending money), I'm thinking that the Hi-Point carbine is a pretty stiff competitor to any autoloading .22, with the single-shot NEF/H&R taking a distant third. A bit pricier to train on the Hi-Point carbine. I still have not fired the HP, but hope to get a chance to do so. And if I ever get a chance to buy a used one, I'd finally have a plinker that I would't feel guilty for painting/ornamenting/glue-gunning spikes onto, etc.

Good discussion thus far; like I said, it's been touched on in the past, but nothing like a dedicated thread.

-MV

 

[hillbilly]

Okay, here's my answers to the very good points that MatthewVanitas brings up.

1) Anyone who is willing to have only a $50 Marlin Model 60 as his or her sole and ownly firearm for "home defense" is not going to "train" with it.

Anyone who is serious enough for "home defense" enough to actually "train" for it is going to get something better than just a $50 Marlin Model 60, because anyone who thinks about the topic long enough to realize what a real, actual, legal "home defense" situation means will realize the bad idea of trying that situation out with just a $50 .22 rifle.

Therefore, the issue of "training" for home defense with either a Marlin Model 60 or a Mosin Nagant M44 is, I argue, a completely moot point.

Dealing with recoil will not be an issue at all in a real, actual home defense situation.

Trying to stay alive for the next 30 seconds will take up so much of the homeowner's attention and effort that recoil will not be noticed at all.

2) Flinch. Again, the homeowner in a real, actual home defense situation will have a lot more to worry about and think about besides the fact that his gun might go "boom" really loudly, and might kick.

3) Over penetration. Okay, good point.

But to be honest, if somebody is really and truly in my house and really and truly trying to kill me or rape my wife, I won't personally care that much about over-penetration.

Concerns about over-penetration are the kind of thing that only folks who actually take the time to actually think about a real home defense situation will think about, and those folks will, by virtue of their serious outlook and careful consideration, have much more suitable firearms that cost only about $100 or so for a home defense situation, and won't have to worry about over-penetration.

It is a good point, MatthewVanitas.

But to be honest, I don't think anyone who takes the defense of their home and themselves so unseriously as to wind up with only a Marlin Model 60 or a Mosin Nagant M44 is thinking about such a topic, one way or the other.


Final point made by MatthewVanitas about an M-44 carbine says, and I quote:

"After the first fireball erupts in the room, the target is going to either be diving out a window, lying on the ground, or charging the homeowner."

Hey, two out of three of those are really good outcomes. And with the bayonet extended on the M44, bring on that charging attacker.

While this thread is interesting and thought-provoking, I contend that anyone who actually thinks about a real home defense situation for more than just a little will realize very quickly that there are lots of cheap firearms out there that are suitable for home defense.

And a Marlin Model 60 ain't it.......and neither is an M-44 carbine.

But, there could be a real situation in which an unserious or unthoughtful person could find himself in a home defense situation with only one or the other at hand.

hillbilly

 

[MatthewVanitas]

Hillbilly brings up a lot of good points

IRT Recoil: I definitely agree that a homeowner will not notice the physical recoil of the firearm in an HD scenario, but I do suggest that many people will still anticipate and flinch from the "expected" recoil.

I also agree that the 60, HiPoint, M44, NEF are far less than ideal for HD.

The larger issue that we're stuck on, which has probably been covered at many points in the past:

What do you do with someone who is willing to use a firearm to defend their house, but not inclined to spend more than the minimum necessary in terms of training and money? I hasten to add: someone willing to achieve basic handling and marksmanship, 4 Rules, etc., but not much further than that. "Sorry Bob, looks like it's softball-bat for you" ?

I compare it: if my paramedic buddy says "Hey, let's go take that 4-hour Lifesaving Course next Saturday afternoon", I'd probably say that was a great idea. I'd be very glad to bone up on basic lifesaving (which I need to do), and buy a basic first-aid kit (which I also need to do, I'm at the leather-belt and lots of towels stage). However, if buddy says "And then we can go to refresher courses ever two weeks, and get you a full Corpsman's pack, etc....", I'm going to balk at spending hundreds of dollars and hours every two weeks, despite the fact that I think it's a very good thing to learn lifesaving skills. Should my paramedic friend therefore refuse to take me to the once-a-year four hour class and help me buy a good-quality $35 First Aid kit?

-MV