HOME DEFENSE question??

[BamaMinuteman]

Hi all,
I am currently a student at the University of Alabama. The off campus house that my roomates and I are living in next year is in a neighborhood where robberies have occured. The neighborhood is nice with all college kids, however, thugs will come in and do mischief. My question is- what are the rules of engagement if an intruder came on our property or in our home? My roomates and I are all hunters with shotguns under our beds and dont wanna tolerate no thugs. What are some tips that yall might have if a situation arises? Thanks for any help

 

[rcmodel]

I have no idea what Alabama law is, but most places, you will land in jail for murder or assault with a deadly weapon if you shoot someone outside your house that is no threat to you yet.
That includes some low-life breaking your car window to steal your car wash quarters.

Once inside your home, you should have the right to employ deadly force to protect yourself if necessary.

But I ain't no Bama lawyer.
And I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express in Mobil last night!

The best tip I could give you would be to take a CCW class.
The instruction will include lots of questions like yours, and the correct legal answers in your locality.
rc

 

[NJGunOwner81]

Touchy situation...

I KNOW I'm probably going to get a lot of flack for this but it is only my opinion.

If somebody breaks into your residence most of the time, from what I have read and heard, just shouting you have a gun or letting the gun be seen is enough to deter most intruders.

Listen, I don't want to have to kill anyone, however, if you break into my home and I tell you that I have a gun and you see that I have a gun and you STILL advance toward me I WILL put you on the ground! After the warnings as far as I am concerned you broke into my home with the intention to do me or my family bodily harm. The only thing you DON'T want to do is shoot somebody as they're retreating ... THAT will probably get you in trouble regardless of the state you live in.

Here is the bottom line ... you have to sit down and REALLY think things through about having a handgun, shotgun, or rifle. Can you, if God forbid the need arises, point that gun at somebody else ... another human being ... and kill them??? If you can't bring yourself to do that for whatever reason do NOT buy, own, or keep a gun because the person on the other side probably won't have any hangs ups about taking YOUR gun and shooting YOU with it!

 

[killchain]

Read your state and local laws. Some states have a "Castle Defense" doctrine and whatnot.

And always remember... RACK THE SLIDE. People know what that means.

 

[mljdeckard]

NJ, it would depend on the situation. Certainly we would deter it if we could. But at the same time, if you are in the process of being attacked, and someone is entering your home or is ALREADY in your home, it's not a good idea to stand there and talk. It's time to act.

State laws vary for deadly force when someone is trying to enter your home. In MY state, if someone enters your home, either by violence or by stealth, with the intent to commit a felony, deadly force is allowed. No warning or retreat is required. Some states are more broad, meaning, if someone is TRYING to enter your home you are allowed to use deadly force.

 

[mljdeckard]

I very much advise against relying on the sound of racking the slide to deter a criminal. It may have that effect, it may not. (I have the chamber on my shotgun empty, but it's for child safety, not to get to rack the slide.) It may well be that you are cornered and you don't want to alert anyone to where you are or what you are doing. A bad guy in your house doesn't need any warnings.

 

[bigalexe]

Racking the slide is TERRIBLE for two reasons:

1.) Assuming the intruder heard you, they now know your general area. Your biggest advantage defending your home is that you know the house and they do not, you just gave that advantage up.

2.) They know you are dangerous, now instead of pillaging your house they may decide you are a threat that needs to be engaged. Very likely you could have just escalated a robbery into an attempt on your life.

Depending on a noise of a gun, or a shouting "I am armed", or anything to "Scare" away an intruder is a good way to get yourself killed in your own home.

In general the defense strategy that has been suggested here many times is this:

1.) Upon hearing a noise arm yourself
2.) Confirm the noise you heard is not benign and is a threat. This can be done by yelling to ask who is there to confirm it isn't a family member.
3.) Once you are armed get to a safe spot, like a room at the end of hallway with 1 door in/out. Corner yourself so you know what way the threat will approach.
4.) Use the telephone to call police.

Whatever you do, do not go "Hunt" down a criminal who is pillaging your home if you don't have to. Police get paid to step into the line of fire, you do not. At best you could force an engagement that could have been avoided, and at worst you could get yourself shot.

Also while I am on the subject, if someone is attacking your car or has broken into your home and you are not there (returning to parking lot to a broken window, or pull in driveway to your front door cracked open), do not engage the individual, again you should call police and let them put themselves in danger because you don't have to.

 

[Sniper X]

I would think in any state that allows guns, allows you to shoot an intruder who is in your home. You don't have to rack the slide, you don't have to yell that you have a gun, you don'
t have to bow three times toward the East and ask forgiveness from the diety. You can plain shoot them since the intent there is to rob, and possibly do damage to you and your family. If any state has such silly laws stating you have to wait to see a weapon or wait to be attacked, that would be dangerous and stupid.

I will say outright that if anyone ever comes in my house planning to rob or kill me or hurt my kids or wife, they are going to have one heck of a resounding problem.

 

[Sniper X]

Ill add this, a intruder on your property is the same is in your house in many states.....

 

[mljdeckard]

Sniper, no he isn't. The only state I know of that allows deadly force against trespassers under very narrow circumstances it Texas.

 

[oneounceload]

Ill add this, a intruder on your property is the same is in your house in many states..

If your life is not in imminent danger (and a trespasser away from your house would not be putting your life in that scenario, use of deadly force on your part will get you a stint in prison

 

[razorback2003]

I'd be a good clean used handgun....either a 38/357 revolver or a 9mm/40/45 autopistol....with that you can carry it and also keep it in your nightstand. If you don't have a pistol license...look into getting one to carry your pistol. Ya'll have pretty good laws in AL on getting one if you are an AL resident....you just get one from your county sheriff....some issue them to folks as young as 18....then you can take it in your vehicle in AL and also conceal. I live in TN and my handgun carry permit is good in AL...and i've traveled there.

I'd also look into getting a good clean used pump shotgun 12 gauge.....Remington 870 or a Mossberg. You can load that with buckshot....keep it fully loaded under your bed or in your closet. When I've kept a shotgun for self defense, I've kept it chambered....I didn't want to spend time chambering and also an intruder hearing my location....I just want to press the safety and squeeze the trigger.

Check on AL's laws on self defense with burglars. MOST (I don't live in AL) states it is legal to use deadly force against a burglar busting into a house. MOST states do not allow you to use deadly force against thieves in public say stealing your car stereo UNLESS say you confront the guy and he pulls a knife...then whole different situation...then you're fearing for your life in public. Again check state's laws.

 

[rm23]

Brilliant! Rack the slide and get shot through the wall or when you come around the corner. Home invasions are not the time to be hoping that something is going to scare someone. The intruder already decided that entering your house was worth the risk.

You don't shoot people for being on your property. Call the cops.

If someone comes into your house, kill them.

Hope this helps.

 

[NJGunOwner81]

Understood ... however

I completely understand what those of you are saying about calling out to an intruder and giving away your position ... I understand that ... I do!

My problem is that we live in a sue happy, lawyer infested world where the good guys DON'T always win. I have read about instances where intruders have entered somebody's home, hurt themselves, sued the homeowner, and WON!! The whole system is crazy!

I live in the unfriendly to guns state of NJ where there is no castle doctrine and if for some unforeseen reason I have to go to court to defend myself and my position I want to be able to say that I gave this person every available opportunity to leave and he still came at me.

I am very pessimistic and I could just hear this being played out in court ...

"So you said you heard a noise downstairs"

"Right"

"So what did you do?"

"I got my gun, crept downstairs, saw the intruder and shot him"

"... You shot him ... shot him from a distance of 7 feet, hitting him in the chest, and killing him instantly"

"Yes sir ... I did."

"Did you get a good look at him? Did you recognize him?"

"Honestly, it was dark and I couldn't see him very well?"

"So ... you couldn't see him very well so you shot him? Let me ask you something Mr. Meoff ..."

"Jack ... call me Jack!"

"All right ... Jack ... if it was dark and you couldn't see him well and we know from you're own testimony that you didn't say anything ... how were you sure that this person presented a deadly threat to you ... it may well have been a drunken teenager ... did you even consider that as you hunted him? It's safe to say that breaking into somebody's house IS a crime but do you think that we should execute these people?"

" ... "




You get where I am going with this don't you? I want to be ale to stand there in court that I had no other option but to shoot the intruder. Let's also be clear that just because you are found "Not Guilty" in a criminal case does not mean that it will play out the same way in a civil suit ... O.J. Simpson!

I just want to make sure everyone is aware that just because the police haul this guy away in cuffs or zip him up in a bag it may not end there. Protecting yourself goes beyond just being a good marksman!

I MEAN NO DISRESPECT TO ANYONE ELSE'S OPINIONS ... THESE ARE JUST MY PERSONAL BELIEFS!​

Take Care & Be Safe

Frank
NJGunOwner81

 

[shockwave]

They know you are dangerous, now instead of pillaging your house they may decide you are a threat that needs to be engaged.

"The sound of a Mossberg being racked makes the BGs wet their pants" is a common saying, but there might be some truth to it. Nobody should bet the farm on the likelihood of that happening, but if you're like me and keep the shotgun "rack ready," then when you arm the weapon the BG certainly might hear it and re-think his plans.

It's hard to put yourself into the BG mindset, because these are weird people. Still, a burglar seeking access to your home has an expectation of getting a small amount of loot. Maybe a couple hundred bucks. You, as the defender, are trying to save your own life. If Mr BG is aware that you are a hardened target, it's hard to see how the risk is worthwhile - if he knows he'll be walking into shotgun fire.

So I wouldn't rack the gun to make some kind of statement, but it's arguable that the sound would have some effect on the other fellow's outlook.

 

[philpost]

To the OP - As someone else mentioned, investigate the Castle Doctrine in Alabama; that should tell you if you CAN use deadly force against an intruder. The complicating factor is that you live in off-campus housing with roommates, and that means a steady flow of people (at least that was my experience). So you need to be REALLY, REALLY sure that noise you hear is actually an intruder, and not a drunk cheerleader one of your roomies hooked up with and got lost on the way to the bathroom, in the middle of the night, in the dark, in an unfamiliar house. Know what I'm saying?

 

[Manco]

Here is the bottom line ... you have to sit down and REALLY think things through about having a handgun, shotgun, or rifle. Can you, if God forbid the need arises, point that gun at somebody else ... another human being ... and kill them???

To save my own life and the lives of my family, sure--better the bad guy than us!

If you can't bring yourself to do that for whatever reason do NOT buy, own, or keep a gun because the person on the other side probably won't have any hangs ups about taking YOUR gun and shooting YOU with it!

Good advice, at least regarding keeping a gun always loaded for self-defense. In general, never point a loaded gun at anything you would not be willing to destroy.

I completely understand what those of you are saying about calling out to an intruder and giving away your position ... I understand that ... I do!

My problem is that we live in a sue happy, lawyer infested world where the good guys DON'T always win. I have read about instances where intruders have entered somebody's home, hurt themselves, sued the homeowner, and WON!! The whole system is crazy!

That's why Castle Doctrine laws have been passed in many states. It's so that if a bad guy forces his way into your home, then it's open season on him from your point of view. If the perp happens to get killed when you shoot him during a home invasion, then you're the legal judge, jury, and executioner. Limitations vary by the individual state, but pretty much anything short of deliberately executing a bad guy who has been incapacitated or has given up goes. Imminent danger to your life is presumed. Outside of your home is a different story, of course, and is based on state laws concerning self-defense in general.

I live in the unfriendly to guns state of NJ where there is no castle doctrine and if for some unforeseen reason I have to go to court to defend myself and my position I want to be able to say that I gave this person every available opportunity to leave and he still came at me.

Hmmm...in that case, better take cover while giving your warning, and be prepared to react quickly.

I am very pessimistic and I could just hear this being played out in court ...

"So you said you heard a noise downstairs"

"Right"

"So what did you do?"

"I got my gun, crept downstairs, saw the intruder and shot him"

"... You shot him ... shot him from a distance of 7 feet, hitting him in the chest, and killing him instantly"

"Yes sir ... I did."

"Did you get a good look at him? Did you recognize him?"

"Honestly, it was dark and I couldn't see him very well?"

DOH! That would be a flagrant violation of the rules of safety. Dude, in the absence of light use a handheld flashlight or weapon-mounted light to identify your target. Never mind the law--unless you live alone, you might be killing a member of your own household!

You get where I am going with this don't you? I want to be ale to stand there in court that I had no other option but to shoot the intruder. Let's also be clear that just because you are found "Not Guilty" in a criminal case does not mean that it will play out the same way in a civil suit ... O.J. Simpson!

First you talk about shooting unidentified targets, and then you compare your potential situation with O.J.'s. What ARE we going to do with you?

 

[NJGunOwner81]

To Manco ...

Hey Manco!

I know that "I" wouldn't have a problem and you apparently wouldn't either, and I am glad to hear it, but there are some out there who, regardless of the situation, could not be brought to KILL another human being and that is a determination that is best made BEFORE you put out a lot of money for any firearm.

I wish that N.J. had a better Castle Doctrine but we do not. Like I said, N.J. is very unfriendly to guns and gun owners ... we have A LOT of Gun Ban, Gun Law happy Dems in this state who look for any opportunity to infringe on our 2nd Amendment Rights. The Castle Doctrine in N.J. states, to the effect, that retreat is required outside home if person knows he can avoid necessity of deadly force in complete safety. That's why I said to cover all because you do run the risk in N.J. of being guilty for defending yourself. :banghead:

The only point I was trying to make with the O.J. case was that even though be was found not guilty in a criminal trial he still got nailed in the civil suit because the burden of proof is much less in civil suits. And nothing makes my blood boil more quickly than an innocent being penalized because somebody else was stupid, ignorant, or whatever. BTW, NO I do NOT believe that O.J. was innocent ... not for one second ... I was just using the case to make a point! ;-)

Take Care & Be Safe!

Frank
NJGunOwner81

 

[Fred Fuller]

Do you have a brother??

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=528259

lpl

 

[Manco]

Hey Manco!

I know that "I" wouldn't have a problem and you apparently wouldn't either, and I am glad to hear it, but there are some out there who, regardless of the situation, could not be brought to KILL another human being and that is a determination that is best made BEFORE you put out a lot of money for any firearm.

Right, that's why I said it was good advice. We can't stress enough on this forum that owning a firearm for the express purpose of self-defense is a very grave matter that requires both forethought and a deep, honest understanding of oneself. Making the decision to present and then hesitating to fire when necessary will put one in more danger than simply giving up or finding a way to retreat safely.

The only point I was trying to make with the O.J. case was that even though be was found not guilty in a criminal trial he still got nailed in the civil suit because the burden of proof is much less in civil suits. And nothing makes my blood boil more quickly than an innocent being penalized because somebody else was stupid, ignorant, or whatever. BTW, NO I do NOT believe that O.J. was innocent ... not for one second ... I was just using the case to make a point! ;-)

I was just giving you a hard time because your earlier hypothetical scenario involved shooting at a target that was not positively identified. Even though it was hypothetical, that's a real issue I wanted to address explicitly. I was only kidding about the O.J. connection, of course , and I'm actually not sure whether you included the shot in the dark as a deliberate example of what NOT to do if you want to avoid trouble, so it was all in jest (which would have been a lot clearer in person, as we know).

 

[KBintheSLC]

Use of force almost always depends on the situation... not a lot of guarantees. As a guideline, if you are on your property and your life/health is threatened by an intruder, you can shoot them. However, the threat should be immediate, and imminent. In other words, you can't just blow an intruders head off once they have surrendered and are on their knees begging for their life with their hands on their head. Once they are no longer an active threat, you should not shoot... this pretty much applies in any state.

Either way, you need to learn the laws in your state. They are posted online.

...

 

[Steve C]

Go to your public library and look at the published Revised Statutes for your state and read those that pertain to self defense, justifiable homicide, justifiable use of force, use of firearms, citizens arrest along with assault statutes. No point in asking on the web since you have people living in so many different jurisdictions.

 

[Beaux Nehr]

"Rules of Engagement"?
What???

You're college students with shotguns, not OPERATORS behind enemy lines. Here is the rule to follow: If someone is in your house, trying to kill you, you only have the right to stop him by any means.

 

[GRIZ22]

My roomates and I are all hunters with shotguns under our beds and dont wanna tolerate no thugs. What are some tips that yall might have if a situation arises?

If this is the case you need to all sit down, find out what the laws are in your state, and discuss tactics. A bunch of roomies toting shotguns in a confined area is a formula for a friendly fire incident.

 

[Virginian]

Given the opportunity, if I confront an intruder in my home, he will be dead. I will have tried to warn him, but he kept advancing, and I could only conclude he must also be armed, and thus I fired in fear for my life. I do not expect to enjoy the clean up, but can take solace I did my part to improve the gene pool. I only know one non-law enforcement person who has ever had to actually employ deadly force, and it was deadly. He said the only sleep he lost was coming down from a high after winning a round in the deadliest game.