Home Defense - townhouse

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Fat Boy

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We live in a townhouse (duplex). I am wary of a situation in which I might be called on to discharge a gun in defense, due to the danger of penetrating the common wall-:what:

I have thought about using everything from a shotgun with light loads, to a handgun loaded with frangible rounds, to a baseball bat-

I would appreciate any ideas you would offer on this-

Thanks!
 
If you believe a firearm is neccesary the frangible rounds make sense. They also demonstrate that you were being careful about "collateral damage" which could he helpful at the hearing, inquest, Grand Jury, etc . Is it true the "sky marshalls" carry 9mm autoloaders with frangible ammo? That sounds like a good choice to me.
 
I've never tried shooting through interior walls.

But the guys at the Box O' Truth website have: (http://www.theboxotruth.com/index.htm).

In the lessons learned from The Box O' Truth #1, they say "Sheetrock (drywall) doesn't slow any round down much. If you shoot in the house, walls will not stop any serious round."

But according to the Box O' Truth #3, birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.)did not penetrate 3 pieces of sheetrock (two pieces represents one interior wall). Birdshot might not go through the common wall. In the Box O' Truth # 3 article, they say "The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds."

According to the Box O' Truth #4, Glaser Blue Tip 9mm "went through 6 boards of drywall and dented the 7th." So I would not use frangible handgun ammo and expect the common wall to stop them from going through into the other side.

I think you should use a service size handgun (not a pocket pistol) with standard JHP self defence ammo, and practice at close ranges like you would find in your townhouse.
 
I do not like the glasers etc since they are too expensive to practice with to establish reliability in my firearm.

I was always partial to high brass bird shot when i lived in an apartment. It is a column of lead i wouldnt want to be tagged with. I think over penetration should be lessened, but still must be considered due to your walls.

Pistols always have penetration considerations to be carefully weighed in your situation.
 
Something to consider, though it doesn't answer your question directly:

Many duplexes which were built as such (rather than old houses split up into apartments or flats), have very solid common walls. I lived in one for a few years that was concrete block all the way to the roof. I don't know what the building code might say about this in your area but it can be a fire-proofing measure.

If you've got an 8" block wall (for example) separating the two homes, your concerns of harming your house-mates in the other unit drop off quite a lot. In fact, you'd be more likely to penetrate into the house across the driveway than through the common wall. Yes, if you pound away at the same spot with a slug-gun you would eventually break through, but a load of 00 buck or a few rounds of 9mm or .45acp aren't going to penetrate.

Obviously this will depend on what kind of common wall you really do have, but it is not likely to be merely two pieces of sheetrock covering 2x4 studs.

I'm not advocating that you do a live fire trial or anything. Well, at least not without informing your neighbors! :evil:
-Sam
 
Sam1911:
Here in TN, I lived in an apatrment complex, and not a low rent one, too, that not only had sheetrock common walls, but sheetrock exterior walls (!) under the roofed stairway areas between the unconnected apartments. I also had a place in Irving, Texas years ago built the same way.

If I was seriously worried, I mean really, really concerned, about shooting my neighbors through their walls, I'd investigate .38 S&W shorts or something similar. They are loaded with a 158 gr. bullet and would be plenty miserable at living room or bedroom ranges.
 
You have to determine what your priorities are.

Is your first priority to protect yourself and your family from unlawful deadly force?

Or is it to protect third parties from an errant shot?

If it's the first, any typical firearm of sufficient power to neutralize the threat with normal ammunition is acceptable. Practice so that you can hit your target. Use typical expanding ammunition in a handgun or rifle. Use normal buckshot in a shotgun. I like #4. Others like 00.

If it's the second, don't use a gun. In fact, don't resist at all because an assailant with a gun might get agitated and fire at you. There's no guarantee that he's a better shot than you think you are. If he shoots and misses, somebody could get hurt next door.

My first duty is to myself and my family if any. It would simply never enter my mind to consider a miss by me a greater danger than a hit by an assailant or a hit by me which doesn't neutralize the threat.

As far as using a baseball bat to counter a home invasion goes, there was a "Cold Case Files" on A&E a while ago where a guy tried that. After the perpetrator stabbed the homeowner to death, he raped the wife and set the home on fire. It took about ten years, but they eventually caught the murderer/rapist/arsonist. The wife says she considers herself dead. The good news is that no bystanders were shot...
 
I think a short shotgun loaded with birdshot would be your best bet. A charge of birdshot acts much like a slug at close range but has limited penetration. The stopping power of bird shot at close range, say 30 feet, would seem to me to be greater than any reasonable SD handgun.

If I were in your shoes, I would get a short barrel pump 20 ga. and keep the magizine loaded with 1 oz loads of #6 or #7.5 shot.
 
What about rock salt? BG doesn't know what you have loaded in that shot gun. All you need to do is rack that slide, (universal sound), and the BG will either run or hit the floor. Period. Dot.

Remington 870 - need I say more?
 
I agree with "Deanimator", your family comes first. I also agree #4 Buckshot is a good choice for HD in a short barrel shotgun.

If you choose a handgun a .38 Special revolver is my favorite. Practice a lot and hit what you aim at and you won't have to worry about the neighbors.
 
Some possible contenders for home defense weapons are large caliber revolvers that fire subsonic rounds like the .45 ACP, the .44 Special and so on. The point here is these rounds probably have less penetration than magnum handgun rounds. In addition, many consider them "manstoppers", although no bullet will produce an instant one stop hit unless it is a CNS wound.

Since penetration is a concern, please check out what others say about these rounds when fired from revolvers with barrel lengths of 4 inches. Also, a bullet design other than the roundnose round should help minimize penetration somewhat. Since I am not an expert on bullet penetration statistics, I urge you to see the advice of others on this recommendation.

You could rely upon a piece of iron pipe, a short sword or even something as common as a heavy wrench. While these weapons will work, they also depend upon mindset, physical conditioning and martial skill. Without knowing you personally, I can only suggest alternative weapons for home defense. Ultimately, only you can determine what best fits your physical and psychological needs. All we can do is to inform you about possible options. I hope this reply has proven useful.


Timthinker
 
If it is built to current fire code, there will be a "party wall" between the two dwellings that is meant to be a fire wall. This is usually made of concrete block.

Frangible rounds won't do you much good indoors if the only thing they will hit between rooms is sheet rock. That won't be hard enough to destroy them, or even slow them down much.

For close quarters, low collateral damage, the low recoil shotgun loads win hands down (IMHO). Deadly at short ranges, but dissipates pretty quickly. #1 buckshot should do the trick nicely.

Fat Boy said:
We live in a townhouse (duplex). I am wary of a situation in which I might be called on to discharge a gun in defense, due to the danger of penetrating the common wall-:what:

I have thought about using everything from a shotgun with light loads, to a handgun loaded with frangible rounds, to a baseball bat-

I would appreciate any ideas you would offer on this-

Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
I'll give you 5 to 1 odds that your party wall is not a block wall. It is not required in multifamily residential. Neither would a fire wall be constructed like that. Not required by IBC or NFPA. In residential, fire walls are most often made of two stud walls lined with Type X gyp. and an airspace between. The walls go from floor to deck and are caulked to reduce air drafts. In general, one layer of gyp gives you a 1 hour rating. 2 layers, 2 hours.

I curently live in a duplex. I only really have one shot avenue down a hallway that aims at my neighbor. We have put a heavy bookcase at the end of that hallway to act as a backstop. My first round is also #4 shot followed by 00 buck. It's not perfect, but it is a start.

I say to try and minimize your shot angles and add backstops where feasible.
 
Don't trust a baseball bat, please.

...rack that slide... the BG will either run or hit the floor. Period. Dot.
Click to expand...

I remember reading something about how many BGs are fairly used to, unaffected by, and ignore having a gun pointed at them. I believe I received this info from LEO that has the experience observing BG's behavior while a gun is drawn on them. I would think 'that universal sound' might not always produce the response you'd expect, so have it loaded with something effective.
 
Git yerself one o' these! Hey, I wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of one that was properly sharpened.....of course, it'll punch right through sheetrock too.

batleth.gif
 
+1 on .45 ACP hollow point (not +P), 44 spl (not magnum!), or the 20 gauge birdshot (7 1/2).

Steer clear of magnum anything, .357 anything, full metal jacket anything, .40 or 10mm. The last two are both heavy and high velocity. No slugs, no 00 buck. No centerfire rifle calibers of any sort.

.22 is another story. Penetrates more than people think and you'd better be a good shot. On the other hand, per the comment above, it would be a minimum necessary kind of a thing. If you could show good intent on chosing the most suitable weapon, that might mitigate liability if a round gets away from you as well.
 
38 s&w

is fun to shoot-- i reload. otherwise you are buying a 80+ year old gun to shoot $35.00 a box ammo. they are fun and surprisingly accurate though not much in the power department.
20 gauge pump with #6 shot. compromise of power & penetration.
 
Rondog and some of our other members might find the following somewhat amusing. In my previous reply, I almost mentioned a Zulu short thrusting spear, the type sold by Cold Steel, as an exotic weapon for home defense. I decided against that because I thought it was too bizarre. Later, I saw Rondog's Klingon weapon and laughed. There is a place for humor here after all.:D


Timthinker
 
Townhouse also

I have a Townhouse also.
A lot of people don't care for frangibles - that's their choice. Over penetration was one of the main issues I addressed when choosing A HD gun. I felt, as a responsible neighbor, that there was no other alternative.
I chose the Magsafe's, in 9mm. Yes, they're expensive but look at the risks involved. I bought enuf rds. to ensure POI, make sure they fed/cycled correctly, and also rotate them thru about every 2 years.
I also purchased a 12 gauge - a Winchester Defender 1300. I've attached one of the Zenon flashlights and loaded it with #4 Buckshot. I really feel the shotgun is the better choice for home defense.

Bruce
 
"If I were in your shoes, I would get a short barrel pump 20 ga. and keep the magizine loaded with 1 oz loads of #6 or #7.5 shot."

+1, except get one with easily interchangeable barrels. A 20 gauge is a fine bird hunting weapon. Except for birds, use #8 shot. Ah, to bite down again on a #8 shot.

Cordially, Jack
 
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