Frangible ammo for self defense?

[Speedo66]

I wonder how this ammo would work for self defense in a home situation where wall penetration would be a danger?

They're light, but certainly moving fast enough and energy level is sufficient.

Question is, would they disintegrate on surface contact without penetrating enough to cause an incapacitating wound? Would they penetrate thick clothing?

Thoughts? Has anyone ever done any testing?

 

[Hasaf]

Frangible ammunition tuned for self-defense is on the market. It is what I am carrying. That said, there are very few reviews of it.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Frangible bullets are usually designed to fragment when they hit a hard object like steel or concrete. They generally don't fragment in people and wound like an FMJ bullet.

Whereas fragmenting bullets, like MagSafe and Glaser Safety Slug, are designed to fragment in soft tissue. But they cannot be relied upon to penetrate deeply enough to reach and damage vitals.

 

[CDW4ME]

I'll stick with HST, Gold Dot, Ranger, or Golden Saber.

 

[Kleanbore]

Frangible ammunition tuned for self-defense is on the market. It is what I am carrying. That said, there are very few reviews of it.

That is not frangible ammunition.

 

[Hasaf]

According to their website, it is.

Is this a frangible round?
Our ARX and RNP™are frangible on hardened steel and fragmenting against dense bone (akin to a jacket being ripped off of a hollow-point that encounters a femur) and certain intermediate barriers. Frangibles are bullets that break up into pieces, none of which total more than 5% of the total weight of the original bullet, upon impact with hardened steel.

What does this mean beyond the controlled environment of ballistics gel and labs? Our bullets achieve solid performance at close distances through certain intermediate barriers like drywall or denim. They also penetrate but fragment through major barriers such as glass or some types of steel, but they are unlikely to over-penetrate through multiple such barriers. Simply put: It’s less likely to go through your walls and into your neighbor’s house.

 

[C-grunt]

Frangible ammo acts pretty much like FMJ through soft tissue. It also penetrates wall board and wood easily.

 

[bdickens]

What LE agencies use it?

 

[WheelGunMan]

What LE agencies use it?

None that I've heard.. totally different application. L E is not using their ammo primarily for self defense. They probably require deep penetration through barriers and hard surfaces ie: windshields, walls, etc.. L E is on their way to the fight while the average Joe should be considering their escape plans and using the firearm for close range defenses.

 

[bdickens]

Not a totally different application. Tactics might be different but the goal of the ammunition is exactly the same.

 

[Kleanbore]

L E is not using their ammo primarily for self defense.

They us it for self defense and for the defense of others--as do civilians.

L E is on their way to the fight while the average Joe should be considering their escape plans and using the firearm for close range defenses.

... which does not impact ammunition choice.

 

[Speedo66]

According to their website, it is.

So they say "Simply put: It’s less likely to go through your walls and into your neighbor’s house." I think that's a plus.

 

[starnbar]

Frangible ammo acts pretty much like FMJ through soft tissue. It also penetrates wall board and wood easily.

Yes it do it will go right through 2x4s easy

 

[Double Naught Spy]

According to their website, it is.

Which is why this is not great for self defense. So it becomes frangible if you hit dense bone like the femur. Okay. When you are making those COM shots, where is the dense bone going to be to make the frangible ammo come about and tear up a lot of soft tissue?

COM...
Ribs? No.
Sternnum? No.
Vertebrae? Likely not at all, but then you have shot them in the spine already. The main body (centrum) of the thoracic and lumbar vertebrae are largely cancellous/spongy bone and not likely to trigger fragmentation. The arches are of denser bone, but there isn't a lot to them.
Scapulae? Potentially if you hit the Glenoid fossa or neck region, but not the blade itself

Branching out, let's see...
Collarbone? No
Ilium of the pelvis? No
Ischium? No
Pubis? No
Sacrum? Yes. If you are shooting through the front, the bullet has already passed through the lower intestines and your cone of destruction from the frangible bullet going through the sacrum is going to be limited because there isn't much tissue behind the sacrum for the fragments to damage.

Appendicular Upper...
Humerus? Not the top portion near the socket (mostly spongy or cancellous bone), but maybe lower on the shaft and definitely the distal end.
Radius? Probably All of it.
Ulna? Proximal end (elbow) only
Hands? Not likely

Appendicular Lower...
Femur? Proximal end and most of the shaft, but not the distal end which is mostly cancellous bone
Patella? Maybe, but then you have already shot them through the knee join and the patella and knee joint are wrecked whether you use frangible, FMJ, or hollowpoint.
Tibia? Likely all of it, though some of the proximal end has a lot of cancellous bone
Fibula? It is virtually all denser bone, but there just isn't that much of it, maybe not enough to cause fragmentation
Feet? Tarsals of the ankle, quite likely, but the metatarsals and phalanges unlikely.

Head...
Head? Possibly on some of the (lower) mandible, possibly the frontal bones.

What does this leave us with? Most of the places where there is really dense bone to trigger the bullet to fragment and do a lot of soft tissue damage aren't in the COM vitals. They are in appendicular locations that you may be hitting because you missed COM. As for the head, great that it might be triggered on the lower jaw or forehead, but a regular defensive hollowpoint bullet would be as effective or more effective in those locations. But if you really want to screw up their arms and legs, might be a fine round, but those aren't generally targeted as a primary defensive shot. Otherwise, it is going to be like shooting ball ammo into the person which isn't going to do nearly as much damage as a hollowpoint.

If you are really sold on using a form of frangible bullet, use one that breaks apart in soft tissue, where the petals come off and create their own little wound channels separate from the core.

 

[Hasaf]

Which is why this is not great for self defense.

...snip...

If you are really sold on using a form of frangible bullet, use one that breaks apart in soft tissue, where the petals come off and create their own little wound channels separate from the core.

I think we are looking for different things when looking at frangible bullets. It seems that you are looking for maximum damage. I am looking for the best I can do to mitigate collateral damage. I am not going to go further into it because that is an issue of informed choice. People who come to different conclusions are not necessarily foolish, ill-intentioned, or ill-informed, they just weigh the information available against their values and come up with different conclusions.

 

[Styx]

I carry Federal Syntech in 9mm and 40s&w. It proforms well, and was inexpensive. Back when Walmart still sold ammo, they had the stuff at $8 for a box of 20 rounds. I stocked up on a several boxes of 9mm and 40s&w. It's what I primarily carry for self defense in those calibers. I do not fell under gunned or at disadvantage with this round.


Here are just a few boxes that I picked up on Walmart's going out of the ammo business sale. I have more. Beats paying approx a $1+ per round for other stuff, and I can afford to shoot and practice with what I carry.

I do not care whether L.E. carries it or not. I look at how a particular round proforms, and then I come to my own conclusions. I don't need bureaucrats making the decision for me. Newsflash, there are a pothera of good firearms and ammo choices on the market that aren't carried by L.E. or the military.



Notice how it's NOT really over penitrating like a FMJ round would for those worried about it.

 

[LaneP]

No-go for me. I would rather have over-penetration than a bullet that failed to punch a hole deep enough. For paper punching range practice where ricochets are a concern, no problem.

 

[JERRY]

the safest defense from unscrupulous district attorneys is to use the same type of stuff the local cops use. people defended their own purchases of guns with built in locks saying they are safe, yet no police agency I've heard of uses such a thing today. same thing goes for ammo. you want to use gimmick ammo for self defense? what major law enforcement agencies use the same stuff?

 

[Styx]

the safest defense from unscrupulous district attorneys is to use the same type of stuff the local cops use. people defended their own purchases of guns with built in locks saying they are safe, yet no police agency I've heard of uses such a thing today. same thing goes for ammo. you want to use gimmick ammo for self defense? what major law enforcement agencies use the same stuff?

When has firing a mass produced factory round by a major manufacturer that law enforcement does not use vs what they do use been a relative factor in whether someone was in a good shoot or not?

An unscrupulous district attorney could argue anything include that you, a civilian, wanted to use military and Police grade ammo in the same manner that they claim we use other firearms and features ment for military use. They could also claim that JHP are even banned by the military and New Jersey because it's more deadly. They can literally argue anything, but has it ever actually been an issue in reality or more like gun forum folklore?

 

[JERRY]

When has firing a mass produced factory round by a major manufacturer that law enforcement does not use vs what they do use been a relative factor in whether someone was in a good shoot or not?

read "unscrupulous district attorneys". was the shooting justified by the state's law is not the same thing as "the victim" would have not been in a wheelchair/would have lived.... if the commando wannabe wasn't using ammunition that even the local police deem too deadly.....

you see, its not always about right or wrong, its about perception of the people at the grand jury and the career ambitions of an elected official. stick with conventional type ammo and unmodified triggers.

 

[Styx]

read "unscrupulous district attorneys". was the shooting justified by the state's law is not the same thing as "the victim" would have not been in a wheelchair/would have lived.... if the commando wannabe wasn't using ammunition that even the local police deem too deadly.....

you see, its not always about right or wrong, its about perception of the people at the grand jury and the career ambitions of an elected official. stick with conventional type ammo and unmodified triggers.

Okay.. when has this happened and been a factor in whether someone was arrested or convicted of a crime? Again, I updated my first post. Anything mud can and will be thrown against the wall no matter what ammo we carry, but will or has it ever stuck is the question.

 

[JERRY]

Okay.. when has this happened and been a factor in whether someone was arrested or convicted of a crime?

I don't remember the particulars but wasn't there a young man recently arrested and tried for obvious political ambitions because he used an "assault rifle". thankfully the law worked as it should and he was acquitted, but he did not beat the ride.

 

[Styx]

I don't remember the particulars but wasn't there a young man recently arrested and tried for obvious political ambitions because he used an "assault rifle". thankfully the law worked as it should and he was acquitted, but he did not beat the ride.

Yes, but isn't that a similar rifle that the military and law enforcement use?

 

[JERRY]

Yes, but isn't that a similar rifle that the military and law enforcement use?

I used that as the most recent example I could think of where not the law but the political ambitions of a district attorney lead the charge. use what you want and prepare your legal defense accordingly.

 

[Kleanbore]

I am looking for the best I can do to mitigate collateral damage.

The load that you propose will likely penetrate walls.