Hornady 150gr FMJBT's and Lake City 7.62x51 brass

[MenaceMan47]

I've been reloading pistol for almost 2 years now, but will start working up some rifle loads soon. I have a bunch of Hornady #3037's to play with along with some Lake City once-fired surplus brass. I know to knock 1-2 grains off of loads using military brass (per my Lyman's #49). Just wondering if anyone has made any good (and safe) loads using these bullets and LC brass. I'll be using IMR4064, H335, and Varget for experimentation (but mostly IMR4064). Thanks in advance.

 

[dgod]

I have had very good luck with 7.62x54 with 4064. 150gr JHP, 46.0gr resulted in Average 2993, Std Dev 23fps, over 10 rds with a Chrony.

 

[Slamfire]

These Hornady bullets are actually pretty good bullets, not match grade, but much better than the average FMJ. I tested them in a number of my 308 rifles. For some reason, I hit a sweet spot in my Ruger M77 with 41.0 grains IMR 3031. Other rifles, the same load not so good. I would not push these bullets any faster than 2700 fps as I want long case life. If you were using IMR 4895 I would recommend a load of 42.5 grains. For IMR 4064, a load of 43.5 grains ought to duplicate that.

Ruger M77 MKII 308 Win                                                                                            

26 " Barrel 1:10 twist                                                                                                                        

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 40.0 grs IMR 3031 wtd Lot 385 Mixed LC WLR                                             OAL 2.785                                                                                    

30 April 2008 T =  62 °F                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                 

Ave Vel =                  2676                                                                                                              
Std Dev =                  21                                                                                                                 
ES =                          61                                                                                                                 
High =                       2705                                                                                                              
Low =                        2644                                                                                                              
N =                            10                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                     

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 41.0 grs IMR 3031 wtd Lot 385 Mixed LC WLR                                               AL 2.785                                                                                    

30 April 2008 T =  65 °F                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                   

Ave Vel =                  2718                                                                                                              
Std Dev =                  54                                                                                                                 
ES =                          157                                                                                                                
High =                       2780                                                                                                              
Low =                        2623                                                                                                              
N =                            10                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                              

Outstanding accuracy                                                                                                                      

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 42.5 grs AA2520 wtd Lot 9595 Czech Mixed LC WLR                                  OAL 2.785"                                                                                    

30 April 2008 T =  65 °F                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                 

Ave Vel =                  2700                                                                                                              
Std Dev =                  29                                                                                                                 
ES =                          89                                                                                                                 
High =                       2734                                                                                                              
Low =                        2645                                                                                                              
N =                            10                                                                                                                 
  
                                                                                                                                                      

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 43.0 grs AA2520 wtd Lot 9595 Czech Mixed LC WLR                                                                                        OAL 2.785                                                                                    

30 April 2008 T =  65 °F                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                     

Ave Vel =                  2727                                                                                                              
Std Dev =                  23                                                                                                                 
ES =                          76                                                                                                                 
High =                       2758                                                                                                              
Low =                        2682                                                                                                              
N =                            10                                                                                                                 

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 43.5 grs AA2520 wtd Lot 9595 Czech Mixed LC WLR                                     OAL 2.785                                                                                    

30 April 2008 T =  65 °F                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                                                

Ave Vel =                  2756                                                                                                              
Std Dev =                  28                                                                                                                 
ES =                          97                                                                                                                 
High =                       2806                                                                                                              
Low =                        2709                                                                                                              
N =                            10                                                                                                                 
                                                                                                                                                

Excellent accuracy

M70 pre 64 Feather Weight  22" barrel                                           
                                                                                                                                

150 Hornady FMJBT 41.0 grs IMR 3031 LC Mixed WLR (brass) OAL 2.750                          
    4 Dec 2013 T =  71  °F                                                                         

Ave Vel =                             2616                                                                                      
Std Dev =                            64                                                                                          
ES =                                    212                                                                                         
High =                                  2678                                                                                      
Low =                                  2466                                                                                       
N =                                      9                                                                                            
                                                                                                                                  

Horrible Group                                                                                                                   
                                                                                                                           

150 Hornady FMJBT 43.5 grs AA2520 lot 9595 Czech CCI 200 LC Mixed OAL 2.750             

4 Dec 2013 T =  71  °F                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                       

Ave Vel =                             2658                                                                                      
Std Dev =                            33                                                                                          
ES =                                    95                                                                                           
High =                                  2688                                                                                      
Low =                                  2593                                                                                       
N =                                      10

PTR91 18" barrel                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                          

                                                                                                                                          

150 gr Australian Ball MF83 headstamp (actually 147 grain)                                                

30 April 2008 T =  75 °F                                                                                                       

Ave Vel =              2599                                                                                                      
Std Dev =              23                                                                                                         
ES =                     63                                                                                                         
High =                   2630                                                                                                      
Low =                    2567                                                                                                      
N =                        10                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                  

poor accuracy                                                                                                                    

                                                                                                                                          

148 gr IMI FMJBT 42.5 grs AA2520  wtd Lot 9595 Czech Mixed LC WLR                               
OAL LT 2.800, set to cannelure                                   

30 April 2008 T =  75 °F                                                                                                       

Ave Vel =              2496                                                                                   
Std Dev =              33                                                                                                         
ES =                     88                                                                                                         
High =                   2537                                                                                                      
Low =                    2449                                                                                                      
N =                        10                                                                                                         

                                                                                                                                          

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 42.5 grs AA2520 wtd Lot 9595 Czech Mixed LC WLR                        

OAL 2.785                                                                 

30 April 2008 T =  75 °F                                                                                                       
                                                                                                  

Ave Vel =              2499                                                                                                      
Std Dev =              29                                                                                                         
ES =                     94                                                                                                         
High =                   2539                                                                                                      
Low =                    2445                                                                                                      
N =                        10                                                                                                         
                                                                                                                                   

best accuracy, shot high                                                                                                     

                                                                                                                                          

150 gr Hornady FMJBT 43.0 grs AA2520 wtd Lot 9595 Czech Mixed LC WLR                        
OAL 2.785                                                                 

30 April 2008 T =  75 °F                                                                                                       
                                                                                                                                          

Ave Vel =              2544                                                                                                     
Std Dev =              32                                                                                                        
ES =                     84                                                                                                        
High =                   2574                                                                                                     
Low =                    2490                                                                                                     
N =                        5                                                                                                           

poor accuracy

 

[Bart B.]

45 to 46 grains of Varget with good 150's can shoot under 1/2 MOA at 100 yards with all the right stuff in 308 Win chambered rifles.

I suspect those surplus cases were ejected from autoloading arms. If they're in decent shape along with the rifle being the same, those Hornady bullets should go inside 1 MOA at a hundred. 44 to 45 grains of Varget in those military cases.

 

[dgod]

My experience is using 3031, it is basically 95% of 4064 to get very close to the same results, I use both with good luck.

 

[MenaceMan47]

The plan with IMR4064 was to experiment with 43, 44, and 45gr loads based on my Lyman #49, which is 3gr below the max load for similar 150gr bullets with that powder in that manual. I came across another forum in my research where someone was using 44gr of IMR4064 reliably in surplus cases using the #3037's. I emailed Hornady this last week regarding #3037's and they said not to exceed 44.9gr of 4064 under their FMJ's. I know the bullets aren't TMJ (mine have a lead base) so I figured at that point it might risk mangling the bullet when it leaves the barrel, which could affect accuracy obviously. I'm just trying to get a baseline with 3 different powders to see what works in my rifle, and some different powder recommendations if needed. I'm shooting a Savage 10FP-LE bolt action (pre-Accutrigger), and it seems to really like surplus ammo. I can shoot inch (and sometimes sub-MOA) with South African battlepack ammo that's older than I am.

Thank you all for your responses, as your feedback is very important. Please keep the ideas and responses coming.

 

[Bart B.]

Bullet mangling happens before they're fired and when they start into the rifling. They may be upset (tilted?) a little upon exiting the barrel, but not mangled.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Most FMJ bullets have an exposed lead base so that should not worry you.

IMO you will most likely get your best results with Varget and IMR4064 in the .308. Bart gave you good advice on the Varget charge. You mentioned 43, 44 and 45gr of 4064, I would stick with between 43gr and 44gr 4064 as also mentioned above.

Any one try IMR4166 in the .308 yet?

 

[Sunray]

"...know to knock 1-2 grains off..." 10% is the rule. Start load of IMR4064 is 43.0. Minus 10% is 38.7. Not 1 or 2 off. Max is 47.7(C).
No reason for any of those loads to be unsafe, but you need to work up the load from the start load, not just pick a few and hope.

 

[MenaceMan47]

True, Sunray. I have done minor spreads in the past for load workups without any issue, but it was with pistol rounds only (9, 40, and 45 so far). I figured it would be a good place to start with .308 to get an idea of what they would shoot like as long as they were safe, then figure which load range to make adjustments to. I've done some test loads with .223 already but they are commercial brass loads, and I was using HSM SS109 projectiles and H335. Most everything I've read (including the Lyman #49) state at least 2 grains below max, but it seems alot of the other books will state 3%, 5%, 10%, and even the NRA load info specifies 12% below max load for GI brass. Apparently the Lyman books are the most 'conservative' from what I've come across so far, but it's obvious every other bookmaker has different recommendations/standards. Some of those standards are very different than the rest, different enough to make me want to question what will work and what has worked for others. So that's why I'm here

ArchAngelCD: I've read nothing but good news regarding Varget and have drawn up some basic starting loads so far. I now have 2lb of Varget, so with that I can do some experimentation with it and see what I get.

Bart: The LC brass is in pretty good shape; I bought them locally from a guy for $35 per 500, and then tumbled them in walnut and NuFinish for a pretty clean finish. I have some unfired LC M80 ball that has the obvious disintegrating link tan-lines on the brass, but they are in good shape, too. Once I fire them, that brass will be used as well. Your recommend range of 45-46gr was a little higher than I thought would work, but then again I am still a bit of a newb. I was going to start in the 42.5 to 43.5gr range personally, but if 45 will work then it's worth looking into.

Slamfire: I've come across several of your posts regarding .308 load recipes. I'll ad it to the list.

Thank you all, and your input is greatly appreciated.

 

[Bart B.]

Biggest problem with surplus military brass is where it came from. Its case heads are out of square because none of the weapons it was fired in had squared up bolt faces. That adds 1/2 MOA or more to the accuracy a given load will otherwise have. Military teams tried reloading 7.62 NATO M118 match fired cases in the 1960's to save a few bucks. It never produced the accuracy new cases did as their heads were already quite square.

One can see how much out of square case heads are by putting them head down on a flat surface against a "V" in something (small square?) fixed in place for them to be spun against. If the case mouth center goes around in a circle, the case head's out of square. It'll look like a miniature Leaning Tower of Pisa spinning around about its ground floor.

 

[MenaceMan47]

I remember coming across that story regarding the out-of-square brass issue in my research. I didn't quite understand it until what you described just now. Pretty much, putting the brass on a turntable and watching it to see if it leans one direction or the other as it turns will indicate the brass isn't straight. I might have to try that sometime.

 

[Grumulkin]

Cases with a TZ headstamp are IMI (Israeli Military Industries) military cases.

It also answers the question which wasn't asked regarding how long reloads are good. The above group was shot with cartridges I had loaded for another gun almost 19 years before.

 

[MenaceMan47]

Thanks for the info. That's why I changed out all of my 308 brass for LC; it's stronger and lasts longer. I won't be hot-rodding any crazy loads, and I want something that will last. That, and I wanted everything to be consistent in terms of performance with no variations between brass manufacturers. My local supplier always has more, and I'm planning on getting more when I get some good loads going.

 

[Glockula]

I use LC 09 brass with a CCI BR primer and Hornady FMJ 150's. I have settled on 42.5 gr of IMR 4064 in LC brass. I would start lower that 43 for sure. That seems high. Good luck and be safe

 

[Bart B.]

Lake City put 41 to 43 grains of IMR4895 (depending on powder lot to meet velocity and pressure specs) under 174-gr. bullets to get 50,000 cup. Most load data for 150's in 308's peaks at 45 to 46 grains of that powder. That was popular for Sierra's 150-gr. HPMK bullet over IMR4895 for 308's used in competition. 45.3 grains was used under Sierra's first lot of 155-gr. HPMK bullet that shot about 3" at 600 yards in several rifles in its first use in a rifle match.

A long time standard for reducing loads for heavier/thicker cartridge brass has been 1 grain of powder for every 15 grains of increased case weight. Another is 7/10ths grain of powder for every 10 grains of increased case weight. Case weights for 308/7.62 cartridges I've checked range from 150 grains (WCC58 match) to 183 grains (LC M80 ball and M118 match). A 33 grain spread requiring about a 2.4 grain spread in charge weights when all else is equal. Lake City arsenal specs for both those cases is 170 to 190 grains.

 

[627PCFan]

I used 41 grains of 3031 in LC Brass with Hornady 150FMJs. No issues at all in my PTR but no competition to 39.5gns with 168gn Amax.

 

[MenaceMan47]

Finally got out today to shoot. The conditions weren't favorable, but with the loads I posted above I got some holes-touching groups with Varget and IMR4064. The H335 did well, but again the conditions weren't great (shooting on the downslope of a hill at a target straight ahead, couldn't get a good cheek-weld, someone took my preferred uphill burm ) so I definitely could have shot better. I will save the rest and shoot again next month, but otherwise the rounds fired fine. The 45gr of IMR4064 showed flattened primers, so that might have been a little warm. The H335 had the least amount of recoil, so I might experiment a little more with that combination. All in all, not a bad day.

 

[MenaceMan47]

Got to shoot again today, finally; did a ladder test with IMR4064 only (will do Varget next time); started with 42.6gr up through 43.4gr using .2gr increments, 10 rounds each. My rifle liked the 42.6 the best, and in the group it had a nice little cloverleaf; the recoil was pretty mild, as well. Everything north of that amount, the groups opened up; I was shooting on uneven ground with a mild breeze at times, but I think 42.6gr will still work out after some more testing. It should make a decent plinking round.

I do plan on getting some 200gr Sierra BTHP's for testing on my suppressor; that will come early next year after tax time.

In the meantime, I prepped 50 brass this morning for a Varget ladder test I plan on trying out in the coming weeks.

 

[MenaceMan47]

Finally got out to shoot some Varget loads; the groups were pretty good, but the accuracy differences between the powder loads were less obvious compared to IMR4064 where it was easier to tell which load it liked best. Either way, it looks like 42.4gr of Varget worked pretty well over the rest. I'm really getting to like the capabilities of the Hornady 150 FMJBT's; I've read mixed reviews, but their accuracy works more than well for me.

Next is the box of 200gr Sierra HPBT's on my bench waiting for action. I will try to roll some out this weekend for another trip to the range next month. The first 50 will be for ladder testing, and the other 50 will be for suppressor testing.

 

[Slamfire]

These Hornady FMJ's are not as accurate as my SMK's or Nosler match bullets, but they are not bad, in fact, pretty good. I think this group would have been tighter were there something to aim at. CMP Talladega targets are a large round circle with nothing to aim at inside, so I have to quarter the target.

 

[jmr40]

I bought a box of those bullets a while back and loaded some with Varget, others with 4064. I used Hornady brass though. Accuracy is better than expected. I'm sure that you can find a load using LC brass that is pretty good.

 

[JO JO]

Any one try IMR4166 in the .308 yet?

yes I have it worked well, going to use some more of it now on my 2nd pound I am planning to try 223 next ,
I have found for me good results with the 150 and 168 grain stuff with 4166 and also tac , going to continue working with these 2 powders and hope to get a chrono this summer
View attachment 782790 View attachment 782791 View attachment 782793

 

[brasscollector]

I have excellent results with the same combination. 43.4gr IMR4064, standard CCI LR primer, hornady #3037 150gr FMJBTs and LC cases. A friend watched me through the spotting scope shoot 5 rounds into basically the same hole with my m700. A different friend witnessed the same thing only that time it was 4 shots into one hole and I pulled one about 1/2" to the left

 

[Bfh_auto]

I found 43.5 4064 to be very accurate. It's near the bottom, but I'm not hunting for velocity. It's also the same charge I use with 168's.
I shoot once, and if I hit the bull, I aim at the dirt and say one hole group.