Hot 38 special loads

[Peter M. Eick]

I was reading yesterday from my Handloader DVD set, (yes, I know it was a holiday for the rest of the states, but here at sea it was just another day of waiting on the weather to die down). Anyway, in the july-august 1970 issue on page 17 they list a bunch of interesting loads and factory velocity information.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.


Just for information sake, here is the loads, and measured velocity from different guns.

From the factory:
Remington 158 Jhp's, 2" 725, 4" 788, 6" 960, 8 3/8" 915 published 1150
Winchester 158 lead 2" 851, 4" 924, 6" 1036, 8 3/8" 1008 published 1060
Speer 158 jsp 2" 826, 4" 817, 6" 971, 8 3/8" 913 published 900
RWS 158 jhp 2" 727, 4" 910, 6" 978, 8 3/8" 910 not published.

Now for the reloads:
158 jsp, 10.5x2400 2" 674, 4" 811, 6" 883, 8 3/8" 810
158 jsp, 11.0x2400 2" 774, 4" 858, 6" 971 8 3/8" 878
158 lead, 10.5x2400 2" 808, 4" 904, 6" NA, 8 3/8" 964
All were with cci500 primers, oehler md 20 chrono at 10 ft.

In another issue, I found that my old standard load of 5.5 grns of unique with a 158 would go 1050 out of a 6" and in the same issue winchester was promoting its new 158 grn load at 1050 also. Today we call these 38/44 loads, yet back then it was just a routine 158 38 special load.

The thing that struck me about this is the fact that the factory ammo out of a 6" was really doing over 900 fps and sometimes over a 1000 fps with a 158 only 36 years ago. We have been over the change in pressure measurement and the downgrading of the ammo several times but I don't think I have seen any one post when this occurred.

As a comparison today:
158 lead cbc, 2" 640, 4" 765, 6" 771, 8 3/8" 710 (my 8 3/8 is slow)
158 lead winchester 2" 681, 4" 783, 6" 830, 8 3/8" 814

4.6 unique, 158 lead 2" 781, 4" 893, 6" 925, 8/38" 843


I just thought I would post the information out of curiosity.

When I get back ashore I will have to make up and shoot off a ladder test with 2400 and make the same table so we can see the difference between 2400 in 1970 and 2400 in 2006.

 

[Old Fuff]

Interesting, and I await your future report.

But keep in mind that #2400 powder is slow burning, and therefore should perform better in longer barrels then in shorter ones. I would expect sub-par velocities in under 4" barrels, and in particular, 2" ones. You should be able to duplicate the old .38/44 load out of a 5" barrel, that was standard on Smith & Wesson .38/44 Heavy Duty revolvers.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

More information:

September-October 1970 Handloader, pg 25 has the same loads as above pressure tested. Leee Jurras did it with what appears to be a strain type guage or piezo and not a crusher system.

The Remington did 20,000 PSI
The Winchester did 19,000 PSI
The Speer did 19,285 PSI
The RWS did 21,457 PSI
The 11.5 grns did 19,860 PSI
The 10.5 gns (lead) did 20,540 PSI


They did not pressure test the 10.5 jhp load.

Just eyeballing the numbers it appears that the old standard for SAAMI was about 22,000 PSI for the 38 special but most targetting about 20 to 21,000 PSI. Interesting how things have changed.

 

[Steve C]

Just eyeballing the numbers it appears that the old standard for SAAMI was about 22,000 PSI for the 38 special but most targetting about 20 to 21,000 PSI.

Manuals that I have that where published as late as 1993 still gave standard working pressure in CUP. SAAMI didn’t start using PSI until some time later. The old standard working pressure for +P .38 spl (after they came up with the whole +P designation) was 22,400 CUP's. Current SAAMI PSI for +P in the .38 spl is 18,500. Since bullet velocities seem to be pretty much the same if taking into account barrel length's used I'd guess that the pressures are pretty much the same. This CUP PSI pressure measurement change has created a lot of confusion for folks.

A lot of people don’t know or have forgotten what it was like in 1970. There was no PC’s, no chronographs that an ordinary hand loader could afford, no cell phones, no internet, no cable TV, no VCR’s, no CD’s, (cassette tapes where just replacing 8 track), and calculators cost as much as an automobile. In 1970's there was no +P designation on ammo at all and as mentioned there where some pretty hot loads in the manuals that where considered "normal". I too loaded .38 spl with 5.5grs Unique behind a 158gr lead bullet. Never thought too much about it until I'd bought a chrono in the Mid 90's and found they where heading down range at over 1,050 fps from my 4" revolvers and over 850 from my 2" Detective Special. But my guns didn’t blow up or shoot loose though I was using .38’s for practice mostly in .357 mag pistols.

I think a lot of what we're seeing in loads being reduced are results from different components, more accurate measuring equipment and a little more caution by the publishers of load data. A lot of loads haven't changed much at all. I can look at 36 year old data and see the max load of 2400 in a .357 mag with a 158gr JSP was 14.5grs, the same as it is today in most manuals.

There have been some anomalies, most notable is the Speer no 10 manual which listed hotter loads than the pre and post manuals they published. I'd also read where they developed their data using copper slugs that where miss labeled in their copper crush pressure barrel. I guess since most guns are proofed with over 2x pressure the chance of having a catastrophic failure with a load that's only 20% to 25% over standard pressure is slight.

 

[Poohgyrr]

That's not a bad load out of the handy little DS...

And yup, I remember the 70's. Was just yesterday.

Someday I have to use our daughter's princess phone to call the oldies radio station and ask why they're playing the songs from back then. They must have changed and stopped playing oldies.

 

[fecmech]

About 2 years ago I was playing around with H110 in the .38 and as a kind of control used the data from a 70's Lyman load manual with 2400. At that time they used 10.5/2400 with the Lyman/"keith" cast 168gr swc. My chrono data for that bullet with 10.5/2400 was 1013 fps out of a 6" K-38 and 804 fps out of a 1 7/8" Model 36 Chief Special, almost exactly the same as their 6" data. I'm recommending nothing, just sharing chrono info. Nick