How can I improve my groups?

[Wedge]

Okay, I know I need to practice but what should I practice on. More specifically how should I be practicing.

My groups are not that great. I am shooting a Ruger Blackhawk and I have had the chambers reamed out (before that the gun was ALL over the place). At 10 yards my 3 round groups are 3-4" and if I move out to 20 yards I have groups between 8 and 10". I usually just shoot milk jugs when I am out and I can hit the milk jug every time but they are pretty big and I would like to improve my accuracy.

My main reasons for improving accuracy are personal satisfaction and a self imposed rule. I can't buy a new gun until I can put 'em all in the black with this one at 25 yards. I don't know if this is reasonable or not but I am willing to try.

I do the same thing when I want a new pair of running shoes...if I can't run a 5K in some set amount of time (I am slow so that is like 25 minutes right now) then I can't buy a new pair of running shoes.

Thanks for reading...

 

[gbran]

Need more info to analyze. I'm assuming you're shooting offhand. Try shooting benchrest groups starting at 15 yds to see what the gun is capable of. Control your breathing, don't drink coffee or caffiene or take in a sugar rush before shooting. Make sure you don't have an eye dominance problem. Experiment with technique, when you start getting good benchrest groups, then graduate to offhand at the same distances. If the gun is capable, then it's up to you. Breathing, sight picture, stance, trigger control........... Generally, if you can't group from benchrest, it is likely the gun. Timing, tolerances, gaps, ammo, etc. Triggers on the SA guns are usually pretty good, but can stand to be slicked up...........

 

[stans]

Need more information. From what position are you shooting? What stance do you use? What caliber are you shooting? What ammo are you shooting?

 

[Powderman]

My .02 cents...

From what I've found, there are two important things to handgun shooting. Most everything else is done in support of these two things, and when these two things are done properly, everything else seems to fall in place.

These two things are: front sight, and trigger control.

1. Place the front sight of your handgun on the spot where you want to hit. Cut your precise aiming point in half. Forget the 6 o'clock hold. As someone once said, "If you want to hit a squirrel, you aim at it, not under it." Hold the front sight on your aiming point. Now focus HARD on that front sight, with both eyes. Your target will be fuzzy. That is how it should be.

2. Now, while holding as steady as you can, start your trigger pull, straight to the rear, without disturbing your sight picture. Don't try to hold the pistol rock steady; this is physically impossible without a rest. Trust your wobble, make it a steady squeeze, and practice, practice, practice!

 

[Dienekes]

You are on the right track. Unlike many people with a firestick, you know that you don't know.

Powderman has it correct. Keep the sights as aligned WITH EACH OTHER as possible. Oscillation with the aligned sights is not a particularly important thing so don't worry about remaining motionless; I can't and neither can you.

With increasing pressure on the trigger straight to the rear, cause the hammer to fall WITHOUT DISTURBING THE SIGHTS. Follow through, which means to do absolutely nothing at all during and a bit after the shot.

Very simple, but NOT easy.

One other thing. Shooting a revolver gives you a big advantage in developing good habits. "Skip load" the cylinder by loading two adjacent chambers and then one other for a total of three rounds; spin the cylinder without looking. You will then get a random 50/50 chance of any given hammer fall hitting a live round and firing. What you see the sights do on the empty chambers will tell you all you need to know. When the hammer falls and you maintain correct sight alignment during and after the hammer fall, you are really getting somewhere. You will begin "calling the shot" either way because the round will impact where the front sight was when the hammer fell.

A Single Six in .22 will work to get started on this, or do it with the SBH. Obviously light loads are better to do this with. You can always put in the boomers later.

Most of my range practice is in this mode. l5 rounds of this with full concentration constitutes hard work and will show results. Do it long enough and you will amaze your friends and confuse your enemies.

There are no short cuts.

 

[Wedge]

A little more information

I am shooting standing using an iscoleses stance shooting .45 ACP winchester USA (white box). I will shoot from a bench and see what the gun can do then go back to shooting standing. The groups are generally to the left of the target.

 

[Ankeny]

Trouble shooting a problem in technique over the Internet is pretty tough. However, for right handed shooters, groups going to the left can be the result of failing to isolate the action of the trigger finger. That is, many shooters will subconsiously increase grip pressure with their right hand as they pull the trigger. The result can be steering the pistol to the left. Trigger finger placement, slapping the trigger to the side, etc., can also cause shots to hit to the left.

Try aligning the sights and have your shooting partner press the trigger straight back. You hold and aim the gun, he/she pulls the trigger. If the rounds impact to the right of where you usually shoot you will have at least identified the problem as one of fire control.

 

[Powderman]

To expand on Ankeny's post, you can tell what you're doing wrong by looking at your target. Here's a simple explanation:

Working from the center (X) of the target: (and, assuming a right handed shooter)

Impact at 9 o'clock--not enough finger on the trigger.

At 3 o'clock--too much finger on the trigger.

Impact low on the target--pushing off; meaning that as you pull the trigger, you are anticipating recoil by "pushing" the pistol forward, causing it to nosedive.

Impact high on target--"heeling"; meaning that you are "helping" recoil by actually starting recoil as the trigger is pulled.

Impacts all over--relax! Steady down!

An indication of a good shot is when your front sight is centered, and your sight picture is blocked out by muzzle flash when the gun goes off.

 

[BHPshooter]

I did the same thing for a while -- my groups were just all over the place.

I will attest most completely to the value of dryfire practice. Get yourself some A-ZOOM brand snap-caps, and dry fire. A lot.

Live fire practice is definitely useful as well -- but go slowly!

Focus on the essentials: Breathing, trigger control, and one of the most effective for me, focus on the front sight and front sight only!

Once you're used to the recoil, flash, concussion, and noise, you'll be able to keep watching the sights after the shot is gone.

Live fire practice can do a lot of good, as I said earlier. Try to practice a little bit every week. Go out, set up a target, shoot a group. If you're doing good, pack up and go home!

Get to the point where you know how your gun will react -- meaning, you know the point of aim/impact, you know the recoil, you know the sight picture.

It takes a lot, but you'll get there eventually.

If you only take one bit of advice from me, get some snap-caps and start dry-firing.

Wes

 

[caleb]

Recently my groups got a little better, at least not low left but a little high center. I started holding my trigger back until I was back on target then release it enough to reset, then start the firing sequence again. The only problem I had was I have a hard time keeping the front sight on target and when it get to where I want it I still will more times than not pull the trigger. The results are a little better but I did notice one thing this weekend is my 92 doesn't stay open on the last round on the high cap mag and I saw an upward push on the pistol when I squeezed the trigger on a empty chamber, bad huh? Well practice, practice, and practice, and any good feedback will be greatly appreciated. C

 

[tbeb]

Could it be your gun does not like Winchester white box? Maybe try some other brand ammo. Don't get too down on yourself. I never could keep them all in the black with fixed sights, offhand, at 25 yards.

I concentrate on the front sight and squeeze. It helps me to "picture" where the bullet will hit just before I pull the trigger.

Here's another thing to try but it only works at distances your eyes can see the bullet hole in the target at. Shoot a hole in the white of the target. Next shot, aim for the hole.

 

[pittspilot]

My groups improved dramatically once I began shooting in competition. If fact, all my skills improved.

And it gave me something to practice for.

Lastly, I found a number of very good handgunners there who were more then gracious when asked for advice.

 

[Standing Wolf]

I can't buy a new gun until I can put 'em all in the black with this one at 25 yards. I don't know if this is reasonable or not but I am willing to try.

I guess that depends on the size of the target, eh?

Seriously: buy yourself a .22 caliber revolver, and practice, practice, practice. Leave the big caliber home for awhile. Develop your skills with a light caliber, and you'll find it takes almost no effort to transfer them to a larger caliber.

 

[Wedge]

I guess that depends on the size of the target, eh?

I guess that would be about 5.5" if I read the dimensions of a B-16 25 yard slow fire target properly...

buy yourself a .22 caliber revolver

I wish I could but I am B-R-O-K-E at least for the next few months of paying off bills, getting out of debt and getting back on track. I figure that the time it takes to do that will also be good time for training and when I do get back on track I will be able to spend the money on a new gun or two.

It sounds like some dry fire practice, really concentrating and practicing, will be about the best way for me to do some serious improvement in my shooting. Thanks for all the suggestions. I know that the act of shooting well is simple to explain but very difficult to perform.

pittspilot said,

My groups improved dramatically once I began shooting in competition

What sort of competition did you get into? I can really agree with you as I found that whenever I get suckered into running in a race and training for the race I shave minutes off my 5K.

For anyone who may be reading this thread but doesn't own a handgun yet, be smart and buy a .22 LR as your first gun! .45 ACP is not all that cheap at 20 cents a round and good luck finding any sort of .45 Colt that is not a cowboy load for under 50 cents. I wish I had bought that .22 when I was shopping last year...I have a lot of fun shooting milk jugs but I want to bring my shooting to another level.

 

[YammyMonkey]

Get a buddy to buy a .22 maybe? Again, with the dry-firing, I found it also helps cure you of the dreaded flinch because your body and mind get so used to pulling the trigger without any recoil that your brain no longer has that strong connection made between trigger, boom and recoil.

 

[Wedge]

My buddy does have a .22 Mark II Slabsides. Next time we go out I will have to make some good use with his gun...and probably offer to clean it (if I can get it apart and back together!)

I really don't think I am flinching...but then again I am not hitting my target where I am aiming either.

They say the first step is admitting you have a problem...

 

[pittspilot]

I shoot IPSC, others shoot IDPA, I don't have an IDPA group near me, so I can't really compare the two.

Any kind of competitive shooting is going to improve you, but as you noted, you have no money. Competition shooting is fairly expensive. 200 rounds for a competition, and at least that for a practice session.

 

[bountyhunter]

Accurate shooting is about 99.99999% trigger pull. The point of impact deviation caused by the gun movement under hold is miniscule compared to the error caused when the hand muscles tighten and rotate the muzzle off line.

For most average shooters, having the trigger smoothed and lightened helps accuracy because it makes it easier to pull the trigger without moving the gun as much.

The other ways to improve group size most commonly used are:

a) move closer to the target

b) lie

 

[spacemanspiff]

i struggled for a couple months last summer when i 'forgot' what shooting stance worked best for me. i was trying as hard as possible to use a weaver stance, and was all over the place. soon as i switched to iscoles and made sure i leant forward, my groups improved.

i try to dryfire at least a couple times a week. and i can tell when a shot wouldnt have been where i wanted it. theres subtle changes in the sight picture that you eventually learn to recognize. you can visually see it during dryfire, but live fire, the muzzle blast gets in the way.

and even after a good year of dry firing and proper practice, i still start feeling a flinch every now and then. most of the time i can catch it before the hammer falls, and i'll stop, take a deep breath, and reset my position.

i also have a mark 2 with me, having that .22 to shoot when i feel the flinchies makes a big difference.

another thing i discovered is that my confidence needed a huge boost. i figured i couldnt hit squat past 25 yards, much less 50 or 100. but one day last winter i was at an informal range that had a propane tank set up 150 yards out. i wasnt sure i'd even hit it, but those "PING"s were very satisfying to hear.

steel plates are also great fun, i tried them for the first time last month. did better than i expected, and had a lot of frustrating fun trying to hit a plate with the first shot.

i'm by no means a skilled shooter, but i'm also able to say with pride that when i put the sights over my target, i'm not all over the paper, like the majority of handgun shooters i see at the range.

 

[shep854]

Get closer?

I first thought of that as a bit of humor, but as I think about it, going to 10 yards for a while might help. It can be a confidence builder, then go out to longer range as control improves.

I've been out of shooting for the most part for several years. Now that I'm getting back into it, I'm currently shooting plates at 10 yd. Now that I'm getting comfortable again, I will start shooting paper at 25. BTW, at a recent visit, after shooting my .22 (my new .22, that is ), I tried a plate at 100 yd. It took a few rounds to find the sight picture at that range, but I ended up hitting the plate 2'3 times. Talk about a feel-good!

Which reminds me; take some time just to plink and have fun! By relaxing some, you may see a big improvement.

 

[Wedge]

Took everyone's advic

I spent 10 minutes doing some serious dry firing today. It went pretty well but man is that a lot more work than someone would think. I really worked on focusing on my front sight and maintaining proper sight alignment through the trigger pull and follow-through. I think it helped a lot and am looking forward to some more practice in the future. I know that 10 minutes was enough for me for today, like I said it was a lot of work to go through 10 minutes of concentrated aiming and dry-firing.

I probably 'fired' more often than I would have if I was shooting live ammo but then again I didn't have to stop to change targets or reload...

I am thinking about borrowing a camcorder and video taping myself during dry fire practice. Anyone ever do that? May even see about taping some actual shooting.

I actually do quite a bit of plinking and in that is where I think a lot of my bad habits in shooting have been developing. Most of the time all that matters is minute of milkjug, and I am pretty good at hitting milk jugs at 20-25 yards with the handguns I normally shoot. But a milk-jug is about 10-12" across so my groups tend to be about...10-12" across at 20-25 yards. The sad part is that I am the good shooter of the group

 

[ThreadKiller]

Not to hijack the thread, but my question is in the same vein I guess.

I focus on that front sight. I get the impression from what I read that I'm supposed to be able to follow the front sight throughout the recoil cycle. The question is, how? Once I touch off ol' Betsy, the sight is gone. I do see the muzzle blast/smoke thing when I do my part and keep my eyes open. But I don't see that sight until I pull it back down to horizontal.

My groups are steadily improving and I feel more confident. However, I just don't see how anyone can follow that front sight during recoil.

Thanks,

Tim

 

[Tom Bri]

Get a nice quality .22, a few thousand rounds, and go out and have a blast. Shoot shoot shoot. If you can get out in the country where you won't bother folks, walk about and shoot at anything with that .22. Go pest hunting. Find out what is legal in your state to shoot as a pest and shoot them. I grew up shooting at english sparrows and starlings, which are both considered pests legally, so they can be shot on sight. At home, get a pellet or BB gun and shoot across the room into a trap (wear your goggles!).

 

[bountyhunter]

I focus on that front sight. I get the impression from what I read that I'm supposed to be able to follow the front sight throughout the recoil cycle. The question is, how? Once I touch off ol' Betsy, the sight is gone. I do see the muzzle blast/smoke thing when I do my part and keep my eyes open. But I don't see that sight until I pull it back down to horizontal.

That's exactly what you are supposed to see: the front sighting rising up and away, then coming back down into the V of the rear sight. I don't know anybody who tries to watch the front sight pop up and down.

Get a nice quality .22, a few thousand rounds, and go out and have a blast.

The biggest single improvement I got was when I bought a Ruger Mk II (.22) and started shooting bullseye. The gun is so accurate it will shout 3/4" groups at 25 yards. The trigger is very precise. It allows you to isolate and correct any problem with your trigger pull and develop an ultra smooth pull. The trigger pull is far and away the most important fundamental to accurate shooting.