How important is 25 yard accuracy with your edc?

[mls]

Yes, it is an individual decision.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

I think that shooting out to 25 yards, or even longer if desired, CAN be beneficial...but only if one is able to hit the target reliably at closer ranges in the first place.

There is a lot to be said about the control involved in being able to hit a target at extended ranges with any degree of repeatability. To say that the skills involved in this are not translatable to shorter ranges would be quite the lie, in my opinion.

Shooting at varying ranges, including ranges beyond what many would say are typical self-defense distances, also broadens one's skill set and prevents one from becoming "locked in" on a set pattern outside of which their performance rapidly drops off.

And, too, there's the challenge and variety factor as well. Let's face it...closer ranges are less challenging than longer ranges and keeping to the same routine carries with it the possibility of becoming dull, boring, and monotonous. There is much truth to the old saying that "variety is the spice of life". Shake things up, make things more challenging...and make them FUN, too. Keep that spark of competitive entertainment alive by working some of your routine outside the box.

 

[MrBorland]

Let's face it...closer ranges are less challenging than longer ranges

That's true if we're talking about "combat accuracy" at plinking speed. Rippin' a fast & clean El Prez drill is just as challenging as shooting 25 -50 yard groups.

Practicing combat accuracy at plinking speed is common enough, it seems, but it just builds a false sense of proficiency and security. This echos advice that was offered earlier:

The importance of shooting at 25 yards and longer is that it exposes the flaws in your shooting technique that are often ignored at closer distances.

There is a lot of rationalization to avoid acknowledging weaknesses in your shooing technique, but you're the only one who suffers because of it

 

[jrdolall]

I practice maybe twice a month with my carry guns at 20-25 yards. I practice 3-4 times per week at 10 yards and in.

While I understand that 25 yards is stretching the definition of "self defense" I also like to be prepared for as many eventualities as I can. I have never used my pistols for SD at ANY range so I just consider it reasonable caution.

 

[PabloJ]

Recently I've shot more than I should at 25 yards. I say this because at some point it's no longer practice and simply chunking ammo. I sometimes get frustrated because I'm not make regular hits on the 6" plate. I shoot everything I have from 3-25+ yards. I did find that when I move to 7-10 yards my plate shooting is much improved. I wonder how important accuracy is at 25 yards. Should I worry that I don't hit the plate every time my glock 26 at 25 yards if I hit fast and regular from 3-10? I find that the 26 shows my fatigue quicker than larger guns. I think I am going to begin shooting less rounds while I only shoot 3 rounds per mag to pace myself I still waste a lot of ammo.

Zero importance. While hitting dixie plate at 25 with G20 isn't particularly difficult I would hate to EDC that thing.

 

[mavracer]

That's true if we're talking about "combat accuracy" at plinking speed. Rippin' a fast & clean El Prez drill is just as challenging as shooting 25 -50 yard groups.

You're compareing apples and oranges making a moot point. No matter what the speed distance makes hits more difficult.
Ripping a fast and clean El Prez drill is harder at 15 yards than it is at 5 yards.

There's no rule saying you can't use a shot timer when you move the targets out past 21 ft.

 

[David E]

You're compareing apples and oranges making a moot point. No matter what the speed distance makes hits more difficult.
Ripping a fast and clean El Prez drill is harder at 15 yards than it is at 5 yards.

There's no rule saying you can't use a shot timer when you move the targets out past 21 ft.

No, it's not. It just won't be as fast. If your El Prez time at 5 yards is the same as it is at 15 yds, one of them is wrong.

People misunderstand the importance of speed and accuracy. Most conclude they are mutually exclusive, but they don't have to be.

If hitting up close is too easy, try hitting it in a second of less from the holster.

Many will give up before they're able to do it, then smugly proclaim "speed is fine, but accuracy is final!" This is code for "I can't hit when I try to go fast."

But folks also think they should be going just as fast at 15 yds as they go at 5 yds. This is a naive assumption. You must find your cadence at different distances.

See what you need to see to make the hit. You don't need to see as much up close as you do at distance.

A 7 yd pie plate can be hit easily in a second, but might require 1.5-1.75 seconds at 25 yds to ensure consistent hits.

 

[buck460XVR]

Some good info here about shooting distances and accuracy in real life gun fights. Pay close attention to the hit percentages at distances of less than 2 yards.

At 2 yards or less, in a legitimat gun fight, hits on target were only ONE outta THREE by trained police officers. At 25 yards the ratio was ONE outta TWENTY-FIVE. This study also showed that while high capacity pistols gave officers more opportunities to make hits, in fact, the amount of hits decreased as the amount of shots fired increased.



http://www.theppsc.org/Staff_Views/Aveni/OIS.pdf

 

[mavracer]

no, it's not. It just won't be as fast. If your el prez time at 5 yards is the same as it is at 15 yds, one of them is wrong.

you go slower because it's a more difficult task

 

[Nickb45]

Try shooting at a steel challenge match. Not a lot of fancy equipment needed. Added stress of having a timer going, different ranges, different targets. It really changes things when your against a clock rather than standing at the range on a Saturday.

 

[sgt127]

Everything is exactly the same between shooting at 2 yards and 25 yards except the amount of time you have to spend on the trigger.

You can slap a trigger at 2 yards and still get hits.

 

[buck460XVR]

You can slap a trigger at 2 yards and still get hits.

The study linked in my post 3 posts up from yours is evidience that while many tend to think this, it ain't true.

 

[David E]

you go slower because it's a more difficult task

But that's not what you said, which was:

No matter what the speed, distance makes hits more difficult

It's not hard to clean an El Prez at 15 yds, so this distance isn't insurmountable or even difficult.

But let's switch it around:

No matter what the distance, speed makes hits more difficult.

NOW it makes sense.

A skilled shooter shooting at their own pace, any reasonable target from 2 yds out to 50 yds can be hit. But introduce a time factor, then suddenly everything changes.

My current sig line says it all.

 

[mavracer]

No matter what the speed, distance makes hits more difficult

Read then reread.
I said no matter what the speed not that speed doesn't matter.
I don't care if you're making .15 splits or taking 10 minutes between shots hits at distance are harder than up close.

 

[GEM]

It won't happen at a long distance and you can't defend it in court?

While a rare event, where I work is a place where we could get a rampage. If we ever get to carry (sigh) - the long hall where lots of places branch from is 93 yards long.

One would like to be able to have a reasonable chance to hit the Black Swan if the worst happens.

 

[David E]

Read then reread.
I said no matter what the speed not that speed doesn't matter.
I don't care if you're making .15 splits or taking 10 minutes between shots hits at distance are harder than up close.

Except that's wrong.

Distance alone isn't especially difficult. Using your 15 yd distance, how hard is it for someone skilled to hit a pie plate at a leisurely pace? Not difficult at all.

As distance increases, the more skill is required to make hits. Distance is ONE element that separates the skilled from the lesser or unskilled.

But speed is the other. A shot that was easy when time is not a factor becomes quite difficult when the time element is introduced.

One shot on the 15 yd pie plate in five seconds isn't hard, but how about 6 shots on the plate in the same five seconds? Suddenly, the slow, steady and accurate shooter can't keep up.

It's a simple dynamic, but many don't understand it.

 

[mavracer]

OMG you alway argue with yourself:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Distance alone isn't especially difficult.

As distance increases, the more skill is required to make hits.

IF SOMETHING REQUIRES MORE SKILL IT IS MORE DIFFICULT
And yes if you don't put much of a accuracy requirement on it distance isn't to hard to master, likewise with speed. 6 shots on a pie plate at 5 yards in 5 seconds is pretty easy to master.

 

[Old Fuff]

Maybe we need to better define, “long distance.” Frankly I’m surprised to find 25 yards (or sometimes even less) to be considered an unusually long distance.

Anyway, longer shots require a more precise sight picture, combined with pressing the trigger in a manner that won’t disturb it. Put another way the often proposed “flash sight picture,” which for the most part only employs the front one, isn’t a good idea.

Of course this increased precision usually requires more time, in terms of seconds. However the increased range will hopefully allow more time because the individual at the other end is facing the same issues.

When taking this into consideration, shots made at over 25 yards do not require an inordinate increase in shooting skill, but do require understanding the trajectory of the cartridge/bullet you are using. This isn’t something that’s difficult to accomplish with a little effort, practice, and a “can do” attitude.

On occasion I have watched metallic silhouette shooters hit and knock down targets about the size of a large dog, at well over 200 yards while using a target accurized .45 1911 platform pistol. Or others (particularly law enforcement officers) who could keep shots from a snubby .38 revolver in the K-Zone of a B-27 target at 50 yards and greater.

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

Maybe we need to better define, “long distance.” Frankly I’m surprised to find 25 yards (or sometimes even less) to be considered an unusually long distance.

You are, of course, correct.

Perspective is important here, and the perspective of concern is self-defense, since the context of the question has to do with your edc.

25 yards, while not especially far, is quite a distance within the context of personal protection with a handgun.

This is not to say, of course, that 25 yards is an unreasonable distance when discussing personall protection...just that it's pretty far.

 

[David E]

Mav, if I argue with myself, I'm guaranteed a worthy adversary....

As Fuff said, once the basics of shooting are mastered, added distance doesn't pose much if a problem.

You said its "difficult" to rip off an El Prez at 15 yds. NO, ITS NOT!

IF SOMETHING REQUIRES MORE SKILL IT IS MORE DIFFICULT

Ok, if you can hit your pie plate at 14 yds, how much more difficult will it be at 15 yds?

And yes if you don't put much of a accuracy requirement on it distance isn't to hard to master,

4" to grapefruit to pie plate to torso have all been mentioned. This isn't about bullseye shooting, but defensive shooting.

likewise with speed.

Speed is the most misunderstood, as we see.

6 shots on a pie plate at 5 yards in 5 seconds is pretty easy to master.

Yeah, except I said 15 yds, not 5. But if 6 shots at 15 yds in 5 seconds is too easy for you, then shoot the pie plate 6 times in 2.5 seconds. Shoot your 5 yd plate 6 times in 1.75 seconds. Both from the holster, hands at sides start.

Again, the time factor makes easy shots much more difficult.

 

[mavracer]

You said its "difficult" to rip off an El Prez at 15 yds. NO, ITS NOT!

No I didn't read, reread, then post I said

Ripping a fast and clean El Prez drill is harder at 15 yards than it is at 5 yards

So either 15 yards is more difficult or you are wrong here.

If your El Prez time at 5 yards is the same as it is at 15 yds, one of them is wrong.

Ok, if you can hit your pie plate at 14 yds, how much more difficult will it be at 15 yds?

It's 9.33...%

Yeah, except I said 15 yds, not 5.

But according to you distance doesn't add difficulty, only speed will make it harder.

 

[tomrkba]

It is important.

1) It demonstrates that you have good trigger control and sight picture.
2) It gives you confidence in your abilities.
3) 25 yards is not very far for a rifle. Many active shooters use rifles, so you should be able to engage if necessary.

I would argue for 50 yards, but most people won't even try such a shot. Instructors trick many people into it by using the "Walk Back Drill" in class. This drill consists of three torso sized steel plates spaced evenly around two yards apart. Shooters start at 15 yards and have to hit two out of three to advance to the next round. Consecutive rounds are five to fifteen yards farther back, depending upon time. This is a great exercise and eases the shooters into longer ranged shots.

 

[9mmepiphany]

Instructors trick many people into it by using the "Walk Back Drill" in class.

Sometimes we're even trickier.

We'll start at 10 yards and have them fire one shot, then have them take 2 steps back until they miss. With a class on the line, we'll have folks who miss, drop off the line until we're down to 4. Then we add speed by dropping the slowest. There are a lot of variations to showing folks how far they can make hits from.

As to the discussion of distance vs. speed:

My experience has shown me that speed is a higher factor in folks missing than distance. This would mean that speed has a greater effect on accuracy than distance.

Example 1:
In stage 3 of the IDPA Classifier, one of the requirements is a 20 yard shot from behind a barricade. Folks can shoot this clean in practice all day. Put a timer on them during a match and they start dropping points. It is the perception of the need to shoot faster that causes the degradation of accuracy.

Example 2:
Failure Drill, 2 shots to the body, 1 to the head from 7 yards
Practice 1.5 sec; during a match 2+ sec. (I'm not saying 1.5 sec is blazing, it was just what the shooter was capable of that day)

 

[Nom de Forum]

.......As to the discussion of distance vs. speed:
My experience has shown me that speed is a higher factor in folks missing than distance. This would mean that speed has a greater effect on accuracy than distance.

Yup, as the saying goes: you can't miss fast enough to catch-up.

Even with a low velocity bullet such as the .451 230gr (750-850fps) you really have to be shooting past 100yards before an environmental factor such as wind can become a problem. Get past 200yards, mirage really becomes a factor. If you have the sights set right you can lob heavy and slow quite accurately out to 200 yards.

Old Fuff wrote - On occasion I have watched metallic silhouette shooters hit and knock down targets about the size of a large dog, at well over 200 yards while using a target accurized .45 1911 platform pistol. Or others (particularly law enforcement officers) who could keep shots from a snubby .38 revolver in the K-Zone of a B-27 target at 50 yards and greater.

Just what were those targets that got knocked down "at well over 200 yards while using a target accurized .45 1911 platform pistol"? I have never seen a ram knocked down by a .45 at 200 yards. I have hit them infrequently, but never seen any one knock one down.

 

[David E]

No I didn't read, reread, then post I said

So either 15 yards is more difficult or you are wrong here.


It's 9.33...%

But according to you distance doesn't add difficulty, only speed will make it harder.

I presume that everyone posting here knows the basics of shooting, so I often bypass making or addressing those points, but I can't do that with some folks.

Everyone knows it's easier for a beginner to hit a large target up close. (Were we only talking about beginners?) But the skilled shooter finds little, if any, difference in difficulty between hitting a 14 or 15 yd target, or even between a 5 and 15 yd target.

It's not difficult to do a 5 or 15 yd El Prez if time isn't a factor.

Mavracer, refer to Post #73 and reread my sig line.