How do I get rifle instructors to buy into a 6 o’ clock hold?

[wtr100]

(not sure if this would go better in training but that seemed more tactical)

Context – instructors are NRA Rifle instructors, some have been to BSA ‘camp school’ – students are Boy Scouts working on Rifle Merit Badge.

Goal - quarter size 5 shot groups from 50'

The biggest thing I learned in my pathetic attempts at NRA High Power shooting ( other than I pretty much suck at NRA High Power) is how superior a 6 o’clock hold is to a center of mass hold in traditional shooting.

I’m having a devil of a time training the trainers to get the Scouts to aim at 6 o’clock. Thoughts? Since the instructors are volunteers floggings are pretty much out of the question … :banghead:

 

[Warp]

Not everybody likes a 6 o'clock hold.

I don't like it. It can work very well for target shooting at a known target and a known distance with a chance to zero, or if group size is all you are after.

But get out into the real world of unknown distances, or distances that vary on the fly, with targets whose exact size you may not know, and how practical is it, really?

 

[Slamfire]

The biggest thing I learned in my pathetic attempts at NRA High Power shooting ( other than I pretty much suck at NRA High Power) is how superior a 6 o’clock hold is to a center of mass hold in traditional shooting.

I wish it was that simple. I only used 6 OC standing, the rest of the time I used a center hold. However, I use a wide front post, a 6 OC hold works better with a skinny post such that the sight picture looks like a lollypop on a stick.

I decided for rapid fire particularly to use center hold. Everything in the middle, no confusing whether to put the post in the middle and the bull on top, or the bull in the middle and the post at the bottom. Everything became middle, middle, middle. But I had to use a wide enough post that the sides of the post stuck out of the bull with a center hold.

If you are using something like a 03 front sight post, that only works with a 6 OC hold as no one is using the 5V target any more.

One day, it is all a blur, and you go to aperature or a scope.

 

[wtr100]

Not everybody likes a 6 o'clock hold.

I don't like it. It can work very well for target shooting at a known target and a known distance with a chance to zero, or if group size is all you are after.

But get out into the real world of unknown distances, or distances that vary on the fly, with targets whose exact size you may not know, and how practical is it, really?

Granted, but for purposes of getting young men to sucessfully complete rifle merit badge or even get maximum accuracy on a 'square range' it simply can't be beat

Our sights are a simple aperature and simple post front sight.

 

[taliv]

6 oclock hold is definitely not the 'best' for everyone. it depends on a lot of things like how old your eyes are and the lighting conditions. HP competitors use all kinds of holds like "center", "flat tire", "reverse flat tire", "line of white", etc.

also keep in mind for practical shooting the 6 oclock hold requires a constant target size, which is almost never practical.


i'd focus more on teaching them about the relationship of the sights ot the target and that there are multiple ways of doing it. it may be expedient for boy scouts probably sharing rifles for you to pick one method and 6 oclock would probably be a good one.

 

[wtr100]

6 oclock hold is definitely not the 'best' for everyone. it depends on a lot of things like how old your eyes are and the lighting conditions. HP competitors use all kinds of holds like "center", "flat tire", "reverse flat tire", "line of white", etc.

also keep in mind for practical shooting the 6 oclock hold requires a constant target size, which is almost never practical.


i'd focus more on teaching them about the relationship of the sights ot the target and that there are multiple ways of doing it. it may be expedient for boy scouts probably sharing rifles for you to pick one method and 6 oclock would probably be a good one.

hmmm maybe things have changed a bit back when I shot high power for a few summers 6 o'clock with a 'hair of white' in slow fire was pretty much the standard

What I find with Scouts is a lot of vertical stringing. The bull (TQ-1) is pretty large looking at 50feet and they seem to 'lose' the front sight in the bull


the other thing we see a lot of is 4 shots in a nice little group and one out the bottom - young'n with those sharp little eyes can see the holes and 'gopher up' the last shot trying to admire the group before it's done. A clip board held over the head cuts that down ...

 

[MtnCreek]

I took the class and got my badge years ago. It was my first introduction to shooting for a group, not shooting to hit the bullseye (went against everything I had been taught to that point). Some of the kids there had never shot a rifle and may not have shot one since. IMHO, teaching a more practical sighting method does more for the students than a method that may help them get the badge. IMO, it's more about the skill than the badge.

 

[MutinousDoug]

The advantage of a 6:00 o'clock hold are realized when shooting conditions make it hard to see the top of a black, square front sight contrasted against the black of a bullseye. In those conditions, it is easier to see a sharp edge of the front sight touching the sharply defined curve of the bullseye black edge. This is rarely the case at short ranges like 50' out to 100yds or even further.
When I shot a lot of Bullseye (Conventional Pistol) I used a center hold exclusively. When I shoot High Power and not shooting aperture sights, I use a 6:00 o'clock exclusively.
The 6:00 hold is just a tool. It's no better or worse than center hold unless it helps you or your students shoot better.

 

[wtr100]

The advantage of a 6:00 o'clock hold are realized when shooting conditions make it hard to see the top of a black, square front sight contrasted against the black of a bullseye. In those conditions, it is easier to see a sharp edge of the front sight touching the sharply defined curve of the bullseye black edge. This is rarely the case at short ranges like 50' out to 100yds or even further.
When I shot a lot of Bullseye (Conventional Pistol) I used a center hold exclusively. When I shoot High Power and not shooting aperture sights, I use a 6:00 o'clock exclusively.
The 6:00 hold is just a tool. It's no better or worse than center hold unless it helps you or your students shoot better.

I find a lot of scouts lose the black front sight in the black bull and the group starts to wander - they get frustrated - ususally getting them to concentrate on a 6 o'clock hold shrinks the groups

 

[taliv]

it would be an interesting experiment. my prediction would be that there would be no statistically significant change in scores between using center hold vs 6 oclock

 

[MutinousDoug]

When your scouts lose the front sight in the black there is a great temptation to look at the target. A 6:00 o'clock hold helps to concentrate focus on the sight.

If you can get the kids to focus on the front sight, I would agree with taliv's prediction.

 

[wtr100]

When your scouts lose the front sight in the black there is a great temptation to look at the target. A 6:00 o'clock hold helps to concentrate focus on the sight.

If you can get the kids to focus on the front sight, I would agree with taliv's prediction.

What we find is maybe 50% of scouts need no coaching at all and will bang it out in short order. Working with sight picture and natural point of aim gets maybe another 40% there are always a few that really struggle. Most of these seem to be a mental thing.

What would really be interesting would be to get some globe / aperature front sights and tell them to put the bull in the middle of all the circles. Those that get the natural point of aim would proabbly shoot impressive groups but I wonder if those that don't would start 'chasing the dot'

Anyone got half a dozen front sights I can borrow?

 

[rondog]

I've always liked the "pumpkin on a post" method, works for me. I can't remember how I was trained to do it as a kid in shooting class with .22's though, that was nearly 50 years ago. I do recall they had peep sights.

 

[Warp]

hmmm maybe things have changed a bit back when I shot high power for a few summers 6 o'clock with a 'hair of white' in slow fire was pretty much the standard

What I find with Scouts is a lot of vertical stringing. The bull (TQ-1) is pretty large looking at 50feet and they seem to 'lose' the front sight in the bull


the other thing we see a lot of is 4 shots in a nice little group and one out the bottom - young'n with those sharp little eyes can see the holes and 'gopher up' the last shot trying to admire the group before it's done. A clip board held over the head cuts that down ...

How is their breathing?

It seems to me that losing the front sight in the bullseye, or not focusing hard on the front sight throughout, would be more likely to give a group spread out/open evenly in all directions (shotgun), not just clearly vertical.

However, if they aren't taking each shot from the same part of the respiratory cycle (typically the pause at the end of a natural expiration), that can result in vertical stringing.

 

[DPris]

For strict accuracy & zeroing, I always use the 6 o'clock hold WITH IRON SIGHTS because it gives me a very clear & defined aiming point.
The bottom edge of a black bull's-eye is always easy to place more precisely on top of the top edge of the front post.

For me, trying to find the exact middle of the bull each time just doesn't work, for accuracy & zeroing.
It's not a clearly-defined aiming point, especially as distances increase.

Typically, on animals (which are larger than the bull's-eye circles I use), if I have a gun sighted to a given POA/POI at a known distance, I can aim for center of mass anywhere close to that distance & extrapolate on hold-over if necessary farther out.
Same principle for iron-sighted rifles and handguns.

Done it this way for many years. When looking for accuracy and/or initially setting up the sights, I just can't find the center of the bull.
I've taught younger kids to shoot iron sights on .22s at 25 & 50 yards on paper using the 6 o'clock hold starting out & they've had no problem transitioning to other types of targets. One nephew, after learning the 6 o'clock hold, then moved on to busting clay pigeons at varying distances out to 60+ yards with regularity.

The very visible & very defined 6 o'clock sight picture can be a good way to learn shooting, can produce tighter groups with more positive feedback than going for center-of-dot, and is no handicap in translating to field work.

With scopes, I can dial a bull in to be small enough to easily center the crosshairs in the middle of the black circle, when going for accuracy testing. A much more precise aiming point, through the scope, if the black dot's dialed down small enough.

Once a given working load's chosen, I still center the crosshairs, but typically adjust elevation to impact one or two inches high of POA, depending on rifle, caliber, and the distances I want or expect that combo to handle.
Denis

 

[68wj]

Always shot POA/POI. That includes my rifle shooting merit badge, USMC qualification, NRA highpower, and untold small game that were often moving and at unknown distances. I understand the 6 oclock concept, just never adopted it.

 

[wtr100]

How is their breathing?

It seems to me that losing the front sight in the bullseye, or not focusing hard on the front sight throughout, would be more likely to give a group spread out/open evenly in all directions (shotgun), not just clearly vertical.

However, if they aren't taking each shot from the same part of the respiratory cycle (typically the pause at the end of a natural expiration), that can result in vertical stringing.

Good point on the breathing mostly they (scouts) do a good job - well some hold breath until they're about blue but that's a different issue

I think they can see the post going into middle of the the bottom of the bull - sometimes you'll shots stringing at an angle - so they're canting AND holding to a different depth of the target

 

[briansmithwins]

The biggest thing I learned in my pathetic attempts at NRA High Power shooting ( other than I pretty much suck at NRA High Power) is how superior a 6 o’clock hold is to a center of mass hold in traditional shooting.

6 o'clock hold is wonderful with iron sights, at a known distance, firing at known size targets, with good lighting. It's not very useful outside of those conventions.

I use and teach a center mass hold as it's more flexible and and robust under any conditions. If someone is shooting high-power rifle matches, they probably would be better served by the 6 o'clock hold.

BSW

 

[back40]

the only time i've used a 6 o-clock hold was when shooting highpower.

for everything else, including zeroing and shooting for groups, i use a center hold.

i use these targets almost exclusively...

these are much better than a bullseye for zeroing and shooting groups whether you're using irons or optics.

i would have the scouts focus on fundamentals more and less on a particular hold.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

How exactly is a center hold better if your front sight obscures the target?

 

[carbine85]

6 O' clock is only good for larger mass hits IMHO. It's not good for target shooting unless your rifle is sighted for a specific target. If you change the size of the target you change the point of impact. Center mass never changes with the size of the target.

 

[P.B.Walsh]

Oh, I can see how that would change impact now, thanks for the note. I guess I'll experiment with both.

 

[68wj]

How exactly is a center hold better if your front sight obscures the target?

It only obscures half the target.

 

[carbine85]

It only obscures half the target.

In many cases that's correct. Some sights like the Mosin Nagants cover half of your target.

 

[Warp]

How exactly is a center hold better if your front sight obscures the target?

Did you read the thread? It has already been mentioned/discussed.

They each have their advantages and disadvantages.