Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

How do NDs happen?

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Dilettante, Oct 6, 2003.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Dilettante

    Dilettante Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2003
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    Northern Cal
    I'm still a pretty new shooter (just a few months) and have never seen or caused an ND. :knockonwood:
    I want to keep things that way. So far I'm still extremely cautious, almost paranoid, but I can already feel that I'm getting more at ease with guns. And so far, I'm only around them a little bit, at times of my choice.
    If I ever need to carry, or have little kids around :eek: where guns are stored, I want to know the typical causes of ND.

    (That's right, ND, not ED. I'm getting old but not that old.)
     
  2. Triad

    Triad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    810
    Location:
    Texas
    Carelessness.
     
  3. Dilettante

    Dilettante Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2003
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    Northern Cal
    Of course carelessness.
    I am careless. To avoid accidents I have to know:
    (1) what things do I have to keep in mind all the time,
    (2) what things do I have to pay close attention to at specific times.

    Has anyone published a log of NDs comparable to the Hurt report on motorcycle accidents? (Hurt is somebody's name.)
     
  4. Triad

    Triad Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    810
    Location:
    Texas
    You know the four rules right?

    Treat all guns as if they are loaded. Mind your muzzle. Keep your finger off the trigger until you're ready to shoot. Be sure of your target and what's behind it.

    Breaking those rules is what causes ND's.
     
  5. P95Carry

    P95Carry Moderator Emeritus

    Joined:
    Jan 3, 2003
    Messages:
    16,341
    Location:
    South PA, and a bit West of center!
    Well - the keyword must be negligence .......

    This can only occur if concentration is lacking and the four rules are totally or partially flouted. Any and every time a firearm is handled, in any way ... those rules MUST be paramount. I have been shooting for a quarter century and have had a couple of ''incidents'' .... they were fortunately harmless ....... but only because my mistakes were due to lack of observance of ONE rule ....... not all.

    That way - an ND can occur but no one gets hurt. I admit to this with some embarrassment but also do so because none of us is perfect ..... we are fallible beings.

    My overall concern is always the rule that states .... ''never point the gun at anything you would not wish to destroy'' ......... so even if the damn thing goes off due to lack of observance of other rules .... trigger is one of course and loaded gun is another ....... at least an errant bullet cannot cause harm.

    Familiarity breeds contempt ....... and with familiarity also comes carelessness, if not careful.

    THINK ..... and be careful .... and always be mindful of the damage you can do.
     
  6. Orthonym

    Orthonym Member

    Joined:
    Jun 10, 2003
    Messages:
    1,354
    Location:
    Southern Florida
    Reminds me of a story I read somewhere.....

    .....There was this Russian expatriate (pre-bolshevik) who somehow ended up teaching a sniper course for the Canadian Army. He taught the course very well for years and years, and all of his former pupils were dead shots and cool-headed ethical people. Well, one day PC reared its ugly Hydra head in the poor old guy's happy little enclave.

    They (AKA those who behave in a They-like manner) sent down a fiat from on high that the first lecture in the sniper course should include, nay, mostly consist of , a SAFETY LECTURE!

    Well, the old fellow, knowing which side his bread was buttered on,agreed to co-operate. The eager learners filed into the room and waited with bated breath for the old master to share his wisdom. He strode out and stepped up on the podium; he raised his 280 Ross above his head, and said, in his antique Russian accent,

    " MOOST NOW GEEVE SAFETY LECTURE! EEZ NOW SAFETY LECTURE! EEZ GUN! EEZ NOT SAFE! EEND UFF SAFETY LECTURE!

    Edit: changed for emphasis and to make it sound more Russian (?)
     
  7. Graystar

    Graystar Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    1,756
    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    Most of the cases I hear of have to do with reliance on a "system." That is, a person goes to the range and has a routine that he’s been following for the last 15 years. When he gets home and starts cleaning the guns, he “knows†for a fact that they are unloaded and proceeds to pull triggers and whatnot because he “knows†the guns are safe.

    Invariably, the routine suffers a break for some reason or another. I remember one case where the family dog suddenly ran off and dad had to drop everything (in the middle of his routine) and chase the dog. He gets home, prepares to clean by pulling a trigger, BAM!

    The solution is simple. Gun safety is active, never passive. When you pickup an auto with the action closed, pull back the slide and note the condition of the chamber (loaded or empty.) Do this regardless of whether or not you were the last person to handle the gun. Any gun you pick up, regardless of type, always check it’s condition AT THAT MOMENT. If you do this, you will never pull a trigger with a round loaded while thinking the gun is empty.
     
  8. Dilettante

    Dilettante Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2003
    Messages:
    202
    Location:
    Northern Cal
    Orthonym:
    ROTFL :D

    I think I want to use it in my .sig from now on.
     
  9. Roadkill Coyote

    Roadkill Coyote Member

    Joined:
    Dec 30, 2002
    Messages:
    364
    Location:
    Oklahoma
    One word,

    Complacency,

    it has snuck up on me before :rolleyes:,

    given the chance it will sneak up on you :uhoh: .
     
  10. RTFM

    RTFM member

    Joined:
    Apr 25, 2003
    Messages:
    1,140
    Location:
    Land of ID
    Treat all guns as if they are loaded!
    Never forget that one.
    Never assume otherwise.

    If you check and check again that there is no round present in the weapon, then your off to a great start.

    Heck most of the time when I check them I verbally assure myself "chamber empty" SO I KNOW that the chamber is clear.
    It works for me.

    RTFM
     
  11. XavierBreath

    XavierBreath Member

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2003
    Messages:
    5,054
    Location:
    Louisiana
    Negligent Discharge:
    Three words..............
    Finger on trigger.


    An accidental discharge, by contrast, involves slam fires, etc.
     
  12. DMK

    DMK Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    8,766
    Location:
    Over the hills and far, far away
    I think the biggest reasons for NDs is: Guns are loaded when folks don't expect them to be. Folks can't keep their da** fingers off the da** trigger. Folks don't treat weapons with the respect they deserve.

    Everytime I pick up a firearm, I open the action and carefully check to see if there is a round in the chamber, magazine or cylinder. Every Time. If you forget once, that will be the time it is loaded. If you put the gun down and pick it up again, check it again! Every time. It only takes a second and it's good practice of manipulating the weapon's controls.

    Never touch the trigger until after you have verified that it is unloaded.

    Don't holster or handle the weapon carelessly. I was reading a story recently of a Marine who shot himself in the chest while jamming his Beretta in his shoulder holster. The trigger caught on his clothing and the gun fired, killing him. There was a case a while back where a deputy put his service weapon on top of a pile of stuff and carried it that way to his car. Along the way, it slipped off, hit the ground, discharged and killed him. Those two people did not give the weapons the respect required and paid the ultimate price for lazyness and carelessness.

    We talk about guns as tools here, but they do require a considerably more care and attention than most tools in your toolbox. Never daydream about other things while handling a firearm. Keep your thoughts on that gun in your hands. Other things can wait on your attention, but you can kill yourself right now if you handle that firearm improperly.
     
  13. WvaBill

    WvaBill Member

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2003
    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    Springtime, WV
    I have been handling guns aver 30 years and I'm still a lot paranoid. If someome clears a weapon and hands it to me, I clear it myself. I check and receheck and check again when dry-firing. NEVER does live ammo even sit in the same area where dryfiring. Even when in field, ammo stays in vehicle...even, esp. with snap caps. Do NOT feel paranoid. Paranoia is unjustified caution. Fell Very Alert.

    Gun Safety
     
  14. yayarx7

    yayarx7 Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    350
    Location:
    Fort Worth, TEXAS
    So does that mean that when the Tec-9 went off while clearing the chamber that was an AD as opposed to a ND.


    Don't worry I got rid of it.
     
  15. El Tejon

    El Tejon Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    18,083
    Location:
    Lafayette, Indiana-the Ned Flanders neighbor to Il
    EEZ GON; EEZ NOT SAFE!

    Thus, we follow the Four Rules. We internalize them. They always apply. The Four Rules are life.:)
     
  16. Keith

    Keith Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,784
    Location:
    Kodiak, Alaska
    Actually, I think Xavier nailed it!

    There's really only one rule that prevents a Negligent Discharge. The other three only mitigate the damage if you ignore that primary rule.

    Keep your finger off the trigger.
    No touchy trigger, no ND.
    Finger - trigger - NO!

    And weirdly, it is this rule that is the one most commonly ignored! I see people of vast experience pick up guns and allow their finger to slip onto the trigger as a matter of habit. And if you point it out they say "It ain't loaded" or " It's pointed in a safe direction" or even "Mind your own business"...

    Keith
     
  17. Quartus

    Quartus Member

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2003
    Messages:
    2,172
    Location:
    Virginia

    If you practice this you will get flamed. That's good.


    Then you know to avoid any combination of guns that includes those people. You are now safer.


    In my circle of friends, if you DON'T clear a weapon that was handed to you, you will be CORRected. If you don't change your ways, you will be EEEjected. From the group.


    Complacency. It will happen. If you are absolutely insanely obsessive about the 4 Rules, you will still break one of them from time to time. But if you only break one at a time, it is much less likely that someone will get hurt.

    There are no guarantees.


    EEEZ GON! EEEZ NOT SAFE!


    Good advice.
     
  18. Tag

    Tag Member

    Joined:
    Mar 16, 2003
    Messages:
    599
    Location:
    Marquette, Michigan
    A little healthy paranoia is NOT a bad thing when it comes to the state of a firearm.

    EZZ GON, EZZ NOT SAFE :D

    Personally, I will stick my little finger into the action and make SURE that there is not a case present. Vision can be decieving, and there are people who I care about living above me. Better safe than sorry.
     
  19. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    9,565
    Location:
    Forestburg, Texas
    Contrary to SaxonPig, very few gun 'accidents' are accidents. They may be events that happen unexpectantly, but are also events that happen as a result of improper gun handling. While unexpected, the event is the fault of the gun handler. I don't care if you call it assigning legal blame or not when the term ND is used. The fact still remains that in virtually every case of unexpected discharges, somebody did something wrong and as such were negligent in their behavior relative to the gun and safety. Calling it an accident makes people feel good because 'accident' doesn't imply blame or accountability, but accountability will remain. "Accident" is a feel good word for dumb*** behavior.

    If you read the paperwork from your insurance company dealing with 'auto accidents' you will find that in the legal jargon, there are no accidents for the most part. They are called 'wrecks' and they are called this because the cause of the event was somehow due to human error, either directly in driving, maintenance, or via the bystander who interacts with the car and gets hit.

    To suggest an event was an accident is to suggest that there is no blame or nothing that could have been done to avoid it. That is bunk.

    Negligent discharges go beyond the finger on the trigger, however. There are the occasional events of improper securing of the weapon such as in collapsible holsters that manage to have a flap that folds in while holstering, catching the trigger. Similar events have happened when a person has managed to holster a shirt tail along with the gun and the trigger get snagged. Accidents? Nope. These are people who were using improper equipment or were not verifying that the procedure of holstering went as expected.
     
  20. Ala Dan

    Ala Dan Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    12,879
    Location:
    Home Of The First Capitol Of The Confederate State
    Fuel For Thought-

    Keep Your Finger Off The Trigger

    Until the weapon is pointed safely downrange, and you
    are sure of your back-stop! :uhoh: :)

    Best Wishes,
    Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member
     
  21. Jayman

    Jayman Member

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2003
    Messages:
    300
    Location:
    Chantilly, VA
    A lot of the ND/AD/ooops go boom booms I have heard/read about involve another party. Example:

    1. Person A leaves pistol sitting on bed/car seat/girlfriend's ample butt.
    2. Person B comes up and says, "gee, person A always keeps a round chambered, I better do that for them!"
    3. Person A comes back and retrieves piece, doesn't check chamber, and proceeds to pull trigger.

    Usually, as people have said, it is a breakdown in methodology/routine. You can't hurt yourself if you check that chamber more, but you could possibly hurt yourself if you check it less. That is why even if I put the pistol in the safe myself, and I know it is totally empty, I still pull the pistol out and rack the slide back to check ANYWAY, even though I know I'm the only one to handle it. I never put a hole in anything from checking it too many times.
     
  22. spacemanspiff

    spacemanspiff Senior Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    4,067
    Location:
    alaska
    ND's dont just happen to rookies, or noobs, or the uneducated. there are some people who post here that have admitted that the one time they failed to obey all 4 rules is the one time they had a ND.

    while some have a ND due to carelessness, all it takes is forgetting the respect you must have for the weapon you are handling for just one brief moment.

    while i have not yet experienced the ND, i have caught myself forgetting to check the weapon clear while dryfiring. thankfully, i had unloaded and unchambered, yet i had no recollection of doing so. it was just as the hammer was falling that the thought popped in my head 'did you clear?'

    my unloading and unchambering have become a habit. when i remove the weapon from the holster, it is to dryfire or clean, so the first thing i do is drop the mag and rack the slide, then rack it once more and then take a look into the chamber.
     
  23. Sunray

    Sunray Member

    Joined:
    May 17, 2003
    Messages:
    10,496
    Location:
    London, Ont.
    Seen two. Had one. One caused by incompetence. Guy fired a load of shot into the ground on a trap range. He should have been kicked out. The 2nd a youth thinking he had more skill than he did. "I was testing the safety." He got a blast of excrement. It wasonly a blank, but the principles are the same. My own was caused by a rifle with too light a trigger going bang while I adjusted my position while hunting groundhogs. Scared me and the ground hog something awful. Nobody hurt in any case.
    ALL the serious ND incidents I've ever heard of involved cops. They are forever shooting themselves, each other or something or body that did not need to be shot.
     
  24. TallPine

    TallPine Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    7,734
    Location:
    somewhere in the middle of Montana
    Oh, it's really quite easy ...

    1) "Don't worry, it ain't loaded"

    2) "Check out the size of the bore on this baby"

    3) "Nice smooth trigger pull, too"

    4) "Oops, I'm sorry ....." :eek:
     
  25. Keith

    Keith Member

    Joined:
    Dec 26, 2002
    Messages:
    1,784
    Location:
    Kodiak, Alaska
    Ten years ago I'm sitting in my office in a crowded military clinic. A friend walks in carrying a knapsack - he's just gotten off a C-130 after a few days leave. He pulls out a 9mm pistol he bought somewhere; a used CZ clone of some kind - Tanfoglio or one of those Springfields that were popular back then.
    And he proceeds to tell me about the great double-action trigger pull, a subject we had discussed at some length previously, after he had shot my CZ 85...

    And he hands me the pistol and says "Go ahead, try it out - it's not loaded..."
    There's no magazine in the gun.
    I take the gun and point it at the calendar on the wall and realize somebody sits on the opposite side of that wall. I point it out the window and a car goes by. I point it at the ceiling and still can't pull the trigger...

    I rack the slide and a loaded round ejects and lands on the floor with a loud click...

    I didn't say a word, I just handed him the gun back and stared at him until he turned around and left.

    And since that day I've never failed to check the action on any gun I pick up.

    Keith
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page