How do NDs happen?

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It's really not that hard to get in the habit of checking the chamber twice every single time you pick the thing up. Habit. Habit. Do it every single time. Soon, it just happens all by itself. Drop mag, pull back slide and check, close slide, insert mag, pull back slide and check. It happens in two seconds. Just start doing it to every gun you meet and soon you'll forget you ever handled guns any other way.

- Gabe
 
There's many many reasons why they happen. But complacency is the main culprit.

The Four Rules are great, and observing them is paramount, BUT..1) Unless the end of your barrel is buried in the earth, it will cover something you don't want to destroy (where's it pointing right now?)- 2) You WILL touch the trigger on many occassions when you are not pointing it safely down range (look at some photo's of Jeff Cooper or a number of other professional folks)- 3) Guns are obviously not always loaded (treat them as they are though) - 4) Unless you are target shooting, or hunting, you may not know what is behind your target ( I think that would be rare in real life shootouts).

Don't handle guns when your impaired in any way. That includes fatigue. Never get TOO used to them. Remember Roy and his Tiger!!!
 
SaxonPig, I see we have a fundamental difference of opinion when it comes to what is accidental or negligental.

Since such discharges are called unexpected, why not call them "surprises." When a gun goes off unexpectantly, we should call it a "discharge surprise." When such a shot harms somebody or some thing, it is a "detrimental discharge surprise." When such a shot kills, it is a "lethal discharge surprise."

Would that work?

I do think you have minimalized responsibility of such events as have many people. They also call it an accident when they run a red light and kill a family of four. The courts end up calling it vehicular manslaughter, but the driver of the errant vehicle and the lawyer for that person will never refer to the event as anything other than an accident. Maybe a better term would be "catastrophic vehicular collision surprises."
 
How about UD (unintentional discharge)? The whole ND/AD/UD is an old and tired argument. I agree that most UD's involve negligence, but they are also unplanned and unintentional (the definition of accidental). To call everything a ND, when you may not have the facts at hand to make that judgement, could be irresponsible - which I believe is part of SP's argument.
 
Keep your finger off the trigger.
Click to expand...
No touchy trigger, no ND.
Click to expand...

Don't you believe this!! It is not so. Keeping your finger off the trigger will only save you from having a ND maybe 99% of the time. I have a scar on my left palm from believing this. (Luckily it was only a 25acp). I sure wish I had followed rule #2 at the same time.

That 1% will creep up on you. My finger never got near the trigger and the safety was on...
 
Keeping your finger off the trigger will only save you from having a ND maybe 99% of the time. I have a scar on my left palm from believing this. (Luckily it was only a 25acp)
Click to expand...

OK, I'll bend to the extent that you CAN have an "accidental discharge" if:

a; The trigger has been "slicked up" by some guy named Bubba that you met at the gun store.
b; The gun is some beat up antique made in Spain about 1906.
c; The gun is a nickel alloy piece of junk that you found in an alley.

Other than that, I don't think so!

Oh, and how about "Premature Discharge" instead of negligent or accidental? It sounds vaguely sexual, and you were gonna shoot the gun eventually so "premature" sounds about right....

Keith
 
SaxonPig wrote, "AD describes the event but some people insist on saying ND which assigns legal blame and is a very dangerous habit to develop. Uttering ND at the wrong time and to the wrong person could prove very costly. "

In response, I have no problem with this at all. Why should anyone? It should prove to be very costly IF in fact the act turns out to be caused by negligence. Do you think just because an act isn't intentional that blame should not be placed, even when there is negligence involved?

DoubleNaughtSpy wrote, "To suggest an event was an accident is to suggest that there is no blame or nothing that could have been done to avoid it. That is bunk."

Agreed. I can barely think of an example where this may be untrue. Perhaps a freak mechanical thing such as described in previous replies to this thread. And these, only if there is no background suggesting that a person would have been prudent to not use the weapon should there have been something obviously wrong with it.

SaxonPig: "Nearly every accident is the result of some error, hence "negligence" can be assumed to have played a role. I am not trying to minimize the seriousness of the AD, or trivialize it, or shelter from blame a person who experiences an AD. I just think that saying ND is a mistake."

On the contrary, by not saying it's an ND, you are doing exactly that. By merely substituting a word, you are minimizing the connection of the doer to the act.

SaxonPig: " Getting in the habit of saying ND will get you hung out to dry if you are ever involved in a legal situation regarding an unwanted and unexpected event with a firearm causing damage, injury or death."

Again, being hung out to dry is exactly what one should deserve if you are at fault through negligence. For example then - someone leaves a firearm, loaded, at home with a 10 year old. It's accessible and he gets it and kills a playmate. Pure negligence and in my opinion, should be dealt with severely. That's negligence also, not an accident!

SaxonPig: "The other problem I have with saying ND is that it appears to have developed as a popular term among some self-righteous folks who want to assign blame and belittle others, perhaps to make themselves feel superior. "

I believe it's popular for a reason - it's correct, and accepted. Whether they are acting self-righteous or not has nothing to do with it. Blame won't need to be assigned, it'll be rather obvious. SaxonPig, you write that in talking about your one "AD" (the one you admit fault with) that it was unwanted and unexpected. It may have been unexpected to you at the time, but to someone who was thinking clearly at the time, or paying better attention, or was more knowledgeable of safety rules, or had a better technique, etc., it would not have been. It would have never happened. So, it was negligence on your part. It can and does happen. Live with it, admit it, get over it. It can happen to experienced gun handlers. It shouldn't, but it can, and does.

EricO
 
DMK wrote, "I was reading a story recently of a Marine who shot himself in the chest while jamming his Beretta in his shoulder holster. The trigger caught on his clothing and the gun fired, killing him."

DoubleNaughtSpy wrote, "
These are people who were using improper equipment or were not verifying that the procedure of holstering went as expected. "

The procedure of reholstering.
I believe everyone should know this. A tip from Massad Ayoob (I first read of it from him, if he got it from someone else, then kudos to them) is to touch the hammer of your double action revolver or exposed traditional DA (decocked) semi-auto when reholstering so you'll feel it begin to move backwards if the trigger hangs up on something. You'll be able to stop and correct the problem. Also, when done with a 1911 (the thumb rests on top of the hammer where it won't allow it to fall), this action also releases pressure from your grip safety as well - simply fabulous!

Also, and this is a pet peeve of mine. What's with all the psuedo armchair commando types who think that it's impressive if they shove their handgun into their holster so quickly and fiercely? That's an accident waiting to happen, either a dropped gun or it catches on something and fires into their leg. Do it smoothly and don't shove or jab it there. Place it into the holster. "No one has ever won a gunfight with a speed reholster!" (I love that line, isn't it great! If anyone knows who to credit with that one, let me know pls.)

EricO
 
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Complacency, carelessness, negligence, outright stupidity and breaking the 4Rs have all been mentioned a few times and I agree completely. Sometimes alcohol adds a little extra punch.

For your consideration, another influencing factor:

Time.

I've heard more than once from "old timers" (not necessarily old aged, but much more gun experience than I) that there were only two kinds of gun owners: Those that have had a ND and those that haven't had a ND yet. I would listen, nod and think smugly to myself: "Not Me! I'm NEVER going to have a ND! I'm too careful! Too smart!" My buddies told stories about their NDs and swore I'd never make those mistakes--I was too careful! Too smart!

I made sure to be careful, keep a healthy respect--with a smidgeon of fear to keep my on my toes. I was never afraid of looking stupid by asking about operating a gun I didn't know or understand. And it seems to me that I am as, or more, cautious/strict/anal about the 4Rs than most of the people I shoot around.

One day last month I came home around 10pm. I had plans to go to the range early the next day and decided to pack up the guns I wanted before going to bed, so I'd be ready to go in the AM. I was a little buzzed but not drunk. I considered my rule against guns and alcohol but decided it would be ok since I wouldn't be doing any real gun handling--just picking them out of the safe, putting them into rugs and then into a range bag (rationalization=bad).

I was standing in front of the safe holding a Colt Model M 1903 in each hand, thinking about what I wanted to take out next

BANG!

I had put fingers on the triggers of BOTH guns and pressed. I THOUGHT the guns were unloaded but I hadn't checked. I noticed that, with my arms hanging at my sides, the guns were essentially pointed at my bare feet. I had no idea where the bullet went. I couldn't find a hole or a lump in the carpet. I couldn't see a sign of it anywhere. For several panicked minutes I thought it might have ricocheted and hit one of my cats.

Fortunately I missed my foot, all the cats, .32 isn't loud enough to really ring ears, and my wife wasn't home to go ballistic and demand disposal of all firearms. The carpet and pad sit on a slab and I guess if anyone ever replaces it they'll find the slug. I think I broke all 4Rs in 3 seconds.

I was damn lucky.

Complacency, carelessness, negligence, outright stupidity and the breaking of the 4Rs--borne of time. I forgot that I was too careful and too smart.

The empty .32 case now sits balanced on the dial of my safe. I have to remove it every time I open the safe door. It's my little added reminder that I'm not as smart and careful as I thought I was. Hopefully it will help me remember better discipline and avoid a second ND.

Furthermore, I don't believe in "AD"s. I don't think "accidental" implies enough responsibility, if any. I have had "unexpected" discharges--where I expected a click and got a bang--but only with the gun pointed down range. I don't think that's what we're talking about. I suppose "Unintended Discharge" is passable, but my opinion is that you have to do break a rule to have one and that's just plain negligent. I know mine was a ND.

I figure that a if person walking The High Road through life has a negligent or unintended discharge that damages some one else's property or causes injury, they would step up and take responsibility--without being compelled by force of law. I would.


FWIW,

Peter
 
"I don't think that's what we're talking about. I suppose "Unintended Discharge" is passable, but my opinion is that you have to do break a rule to have one and that's just plain negligent. I know mine was a ND."

And mine was as well, but I refuse to judge others without the facts in front of me.
 
And then there are the scary triggers on those Charter Arms revolvers

I was holding one of those once, obeying the Four Rules, when the hammer fell with a very scary, subjectively loud CLICK! Let me re-iterate, my finger was nowhere near the trigger, and I don't think I even moved the thing! A friend had a similar incident once, but hers really WAS loaded. Gave her quite a start, and reduced her confidence in that particular weapon.
 
NDs

:eek: I've committed two. Both were the result of not following the four rules.

One was an incredible brain fart, for which I have no explanation for whatsoever, except apparently it involved one of those momentary brain lapses.

The second was the result of not checking visually and tactically that there was not a round in the chamber.

Do you know what happens to paranoids? Damn little, that's what.

Paranoia and humility are good. I am afraid of me. I can't be trusted. It is necessary to check up on me regularly, and then necessary to check up on the checkup. Complacency and self-confidence can kill me, sooner or later, one way or another.

God bless and y'all be careful out there.:cool:
 
Welcome Alexey. ND is "Negligent Discharge".

I had my one and only about 25 years ago, when my fixed routine of "shoot, then clean" was interupted by a possible self defense situation (turned out to be nothing), in which I loaded and chambered a round in my 1911. That followed by distractions at home, led me to almost plant a .45 round right between my running lights when I tried to break said 1911 down to clean it. Fortunately for me, "rule 2" had kicked in, and all I ended up with was a hole in the ceiling, and bullet grazed knuckles.

Complacency bad. :scrutiny:
 
SaxonPig: I think I see your point. You're just worried about verbally announcing the word Negligence to anyone directly afterwards (and in the immediate vicinity) your "accident." Somehow you feel that this will save your butt from the lawyers. That's simply ridiculous. As I wrote earlier, it won't be difficult to ascertain that negligence was responsible, it will be obvious. It won't matter if you clam up or not. Sure, you don't want to spew forth with, "I'm at fault, I'm at fault, it was an negligental discharge!" They (the prosecuting att) will arrive at that soon enough, you won't need to admit it.

However, now that, in your case, your "accidental discharge" is over and done with, and you paid your dues you can admit that it really was a Negligental discharge.

There's no need to change the wording on this folks. There's no need to PC it, to soften it or to lessen the association of guilt. It was either a mechanical freak accident (for which one can still be negligental responsiblity) or it was negligence.

EricO
 
SaxonPig, I think you are worrying way too much about the wrong aspect of negligental discharges. They are not 'accidents' even if they are surprises. I don't see why you have a problem with folks being accountable for their screw-ups with proper terminology. Even by YOUR own description, accidental discharges are negligent. Both accident and negligent describe the discharge. Negligent does also assign blame, no friggin' doubt about it and no friggin' doubt it should be assigned.

I just love this touchy feely world of kinder, gentler terms. I am sure a lot of people really go through life with the self-centered (not self righteous) perspective that they had an 'accident' and that it sure is a shame somebody died because of it. The 'accident' happened becuase the person was negligent in some aspect of what they were doing.

As mentioned previously, if you want to use a word that fails to assign blame, then it is NOT 'accident' but 'unintentional' in relation to discharges. "Unintentional" covers the bases of your concern of not assigning blame and yet reflecting that it was not an expected event. They are still negligent as hell and they are not accidents.
 
Semantics aside, one would do well to be able to admit this of themselves:

Paranoia and humility are good. I am afraid of me. I can't be trusted. It is necessary to check up on me regularly, and then necessary to check up on the checkup.
Click to expand...

While realizing that if you adhere to the 4R's, even true AD's will be harmless to life. Well said sir.

Keith, it was #3, although not found in an alley. Unfamilier POS weapon, too much complacency and trust in mechanical safeties, and no #2. Firends POS he couldn't figure out how to remove slide. Asked me cause he knew I was the village expert on guns. Guess I showed him, huh?:rolleyes: :D
 
The Army recently changed it's policy regarding AD's.

Simply put, AD's do not exist anymore. They are all Negligent Discharges,
the reasoning being that you a) had a round in the chamber when you weren't supposed to b)had a magazine in the weapon when you weren't supposed to c) had your finger on the trigger when you weren't supposed to, or d)had your safety off when you weren't supposed to.

If you have a ND for any reason, it's an automatic Article 15.

I've seen a few ND's, had two happen to me.
Two of them involved worn-out parts; one was me not minding where my trigger finger was.

#1 Pistol range with our old ragged-out 1911's. Hot day; sweaty, greasy hands; a string of fire where I had to reload fast; dropped the pistol fumbling the slide release; pistol fell muzzle-down on a shooting bench;
bang! Armorer determined it to be a worn-out sear.

#2 Loooong desert exercise; buddy of mine packing a .45 in the tanker holster with one in the chamber (against regs) as a precaution against coyotes and such; loading up to get the hell out of the kitty litter box; hard knock from a piece of gear; bang; noe one hurt, thank God; Armorer determined it to be another worn sear.

We got the Beretta not too long after that.

#3 Rifle range; part of the course was a "run, drop, and fire" kind of a thing(the military guys will know them as "Fire Team Rushes"); I ran; I dropped; my finger was on the trigger and safety was off; bang (had it on semi); in that instance no one but me noticed....but it made a lasting impression.

ANM
 
An Article 15 is Commanding Officers Non-Judicial Punishment. It is part of the Uniform Code of Military Justice. It can be applied to everyone, commissioned officers, warrant officers, noncoms, and enlisted. In order to get an Article 15 you must violate some part of the UCMJ, but article 15's are usually only given for minor crimes which don't warrant a court martial or dishonorable discharge.

There are different categories by which it can be applied by different levels of command: Company Grade Commanders (usually Captain or Major) and Field Grade Commanders (usually Lieutenant Colonel or above). A superior may nor direct a subordinate commander to give an article 15 nor can he dictate the punishment. The accused reserves the right to appeal and have a court martial instead of an Article 15, but appeals are usually only done by aggrieved screwups anyway. Once in a while, someone requests a court martial instead, but there are typically other circumstances when that happens. In any case, Article 15's are not done out of hand and when one is given, care is taken to make sure it is appropriate in light of the individual's service record, personal history, and nature of the offense.

ANM
 
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