How do the Israelis handle it when multiple armed civilians respond to a terrorist?

[jlbraun]

There has been some debate regarding the possibility of CCW holders shooting each other if there is an uncoordinated response to an active shooter by multiple armed civilians in a case such as the SLC mall shooting.

The Israelis seem to have a large number of armed civilians that respond to active shooter / bomber type events, so how do the civvies handle responding together?

-Yell "Good guy! Good guy!"
-Just rely on instinct to tell whether people are on your side or not?

How do the police handle it when they show up?

-shoot everyone who's not Israeli?
-all the civvies put their guns down, the police take out whoever is still armed?

I'm interested. I know we have some Jewish and / or Israeli members here, and would welcome their input (other people shouldn't be shy about chiming in too).

 

[VWTim]

That's a good question. I know it's came up when I've done training the shoot house. If you're in a violent situation who do you trust? Will they immediately shoot me when I point a gun and start yelling at them?

 

[Sistema1927]

Do Israelis confront or shoot suicide bombers?

Do Israelis who don't know who the bad guys are start shooting? Would they react any differently if confronted with something similar to SLC?

Not sure that I have heard of any of this happening. Attacks on schools have gone way down since allowing weapons in schools, but I would imagine that teachers/staff would know to shoot the attackers.

CCW holders are not police. It is not our job to hunt down the bad guys. Find cover, and prepare to defend yourself and family, but don't go looking for trouble.

 

[Jeff White]

It doesn't really matter how the Israelis do it unless you are in Israel. Here in the US, fratricide is a very real danger. It happens when off duty or undecover officers get involved, even when measures like wearing the color of the day are taken.

The days of forming a perimeter and waiting for SWAT in an active shooter situation are over. The first officers on the scene are going to enter, find the shooter and stop him/her. A bunch of CCW holders ending a threat like that makes a good passage in a Tom Clancy novel. In real life it would be much more problematic.

I don't know what the 911 calls that came into SLC 911 said about the situation. Given that nearly everyone has a cell phone these days, I would guess that the lines were quickly overloaded and that there were many descriptions of the shooter.

So we've got officers on the way to an active shooter and they really don't have much information. Throw several well meaning CCW holders into the mix and you have at best, a slowed down response to the shooter as the responding officers identify and secure the armed people they encounter. At worst you have an innocent shot dead by the police or another CCW holder who's responding to the same threat.

In the SLC mall, the Ogden officer had his wife leave the area and call 911 to tell them what he was wearing and that he was on the scene and responding. I don't know if this information got to the responding officers.

My take is that if you are immediately confronted with the situation then you should take action as appropriate. If you hear shooting from the other end of the mall, get your family and get out of there. You have no duty to act. You're well intentioned moving to the sound of the guns could well have tragic consequences.

Jeff

 

[jlbraun]

Jeff,

Reason I asked is that the Israelis have an armed populace and have experienced active shooter / bomber events where multiple people respond. I was not implying that their tactics should or even could be exported here. Just for informational purposes.

 

[redneck2]

So...you're CCW and you see the shooter. He's taking out 12 year olds with their mothers. Now what??

I think this a very valid point.

 

[PILMAN]

In Israel it's open carry.

It's rather difficult to get a gun in Israel without a ton of red tape and you have to have a "reason". The only people really carrying guns are reservists and soldiers "who have M4's on their back"

 

[jcoiii]

If you're a legal CCWer and respond to a scenario where you have to engage a terrorist or the like, when the LEOs show up, put your hands up (and drop the gun, if feasable.) Be prepared to be proned out and cuffed until things can be sorted out. And most of all understand that the officers are not picking on you, they just don't fully know what's going on yet. If I'm off duty and have to intervene, then when the on duty guys get there, I'm surrendering my weapon (presuming the situation is safe to do so) and cooperating until I can tell them that I'm an off-duty cop.

Just realize (cop or CCW) that the guys responding are not going to be able to know who are good guys and who are bad guys immediately upon arrival. Be mentally prepared for what could happen in that situation. And surely we can all discuss good responses in this type of situation. Hands up? Drop your gun? Take cover from the bad guy, then drop your gun and raise hands? What else can be done to ensure the good guys' safety?

 

[BigO01]

Well Jeff my question to you as a trained LEO is under what if any conditions would you involve yourself if you were off duty in civilian dress and the gun shots were coming from a distance yet obviously in the Mall you were shopping in ?

For instance if there was shooting that you thought was coming from just one shooter , subsequent shots but none overlapping that might indicate multiple shooters .

What if when the shooting started there was immediate shots fired that overlapped that gave you the impression of 2+ shooters .

If after a period of time passed say 2-3 minutes then you began hearing overlapping shots that might indicate that the aggressor was being engaged by Law enforcement would you quietly back off , provided you didn't have a shooter in sight ?

If first you heard an explosion then shots fired would you immediately head in the direction of the sound ?

I ask these question on the assumption that you are shopping alone .

One thing I would like to suggest everyone who is not a LEO consider before wading into a Mall shooting . You should become familiar with the entire Mall layout as it may very well have a Police Substation in it . If you are deciding what is the best course of action based upon assumed Police response time you could be making a huge mistake .

Most of my local Malls have a Substation in them and two or three officers on duty during open hours that stay on the Mall grounds . I am talking fully trained Leo's not "RentaCops"

Thinking you must act because the police wont show up in time could easily get you confused with the guy who started the whole affair .

 

[mpmarty]

Where did the idea come from that Isralies are all armed? They have stricter gun control laws than we do here in the US.

The cops will automatically know the bad guys from the good guys cause the good guys hold their pistols straight up and down and the bgs hold theirs sideways.

 

[Jeff White]

BigO01 said;

Well Jeff my question to you as a trained LEO is under what if any conditions would you involve yourself if you were off duty in civilian dress and the gun shots were coming from a distance yet obviously in the Mall you were shopping in ?

First off as a peace officer I have a duty to act. What form that action takes definately depends on the exact circumstances. No CCW holder has such a duty to act. I would have no duty to act if I were out of my jurisdiction.

My first action would be to call my dispatcher and inform them that I was on the scene. They could then relay to any responding agency my physical description and location. The dispatcher would have access to several means to notify the responding agency and have it be immediately verified that I was who I said it was. They would most likely be able to patch me through to whoever was dispatching the responding officers and there could hopefully be some sort of coordinated response. I would display my badge before I drew my weapon. Then and only then would I move towards the disturbance.

I would take care to identify myself as a police officer while moving towards the disturbance to try to keep the subsequent calls to 911 about a second man with a gun to a minimum. I would be fully prepared to surrender and be cuffed by any responding officer I encountered. That can all be sorted out later, but hopefully, by staying in communication with my dispatch or directly with the responding agency, the chances of a blue on blue engagement would be minimized.

Jeff

 

[another okie]

There was a case where a grandmother shot a terrorist with an AK in Israel. The terrorists then quit using firearms and went to bombs. A concealed carry weapon is not much use against a suicide bomber, so being able to tell the CCW holder from the terrorist is not a big concern now.

It is possible to own a handgun and carry it concealed in Israel, but it's not common and there are some serious red tape issues. Glock 19s are popular.

 

[SniperStraz]

First of all, the terrorists usually don't blend in with a crowd in Israel after they start the attack. They are standing in the middle of a square or on the side of a road blasting AKs on full auto. Its pretty easy to see who is and who is not shooting an AK at a school house. Also, Israelis don't use AKs for the most part.(except for some frogmen and in other special operations) Very few terrorists have used handguns for assults on civilians, and nowadays most attacks are done by explosives or using snipers. Alot of attacks are done on settlements where everyone knows everyone. Aside from all of that. While to most Americans, all dark people look the same, to Israelis there is often times a distinct difference in appearence, the way they speak and even the way they smell. (I know that sounds racist or something but I dont mean it in a bad way.) In addition, many-most terrorists are nervous and shakey and yell something to the effect of "Allah Hu Ackbar" before the attack. Shootouts usually dont last long and most Israelis have been through some sort of military training. Also Israelis are not nearly as spartanic as they are protrayed. From what I have seen, in any given attack, the initial response would only be from 1-6 people, and statisticly speaking only about 1 out of 6 people would actually fire there weapons.
Anyway, I'm no expert, but I have spent quite some time in Israel and almost all of my friends are LEO, military and spec-ops there. I have spent alot of time studying the subject and am very familiar with it.

It is possible to own a handgun and carry it concealed in Israel

From what I have seen and heard, only under cover cops and spec ops anti terror guys (ie Duvdevan, Yamam, Lotar, etc.) CCW.

The only people really carrying guns are reservists and soldiers "who have M4's on their back"

Soldiers? Yes. Reservists? Everyone is a reservist, and only reservists who have reached the rank of captain can CC after their service. Most of the guys that you see carrying handguns simply live in high-risk areas, those are also the guys you see carrying old M-16s, Uzis, and M1s. (Security guards also carry those weapons)

 

[Kentak]

Some questions

Is gun ownership in Israel as free or widespread as some here think? Is the notion of civilians responding to terrorist threats based in fact? How many verifiable incidents have there been?

This article seems to call into question some of these accepted notions.

http://www.jpfo.org/derfner-people.htm

 

[geekWithA.45]

This question's as old as "In the gravest extreme".

The short answer is to keep your sidearm holstered or out of sight when you aren't using it.

The very last thing you want is to be seen waving a gun around when the cops show up.

Even if you're moving through a crowd, a man with average sized hands can palm a j-frame to keep it out of the public's view.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Well, I know you intended this for what people in Isreal do. Since this in a discussion board largely populated by Americans, it doesn't much matter what they do. We aren't them. We don't live like them, and don't have to function daily in a society such as theirs.


I know I've talked about this before. We are training to shoot ourselves.

If you look at the "gun games" - IDPA, IPSC, even the training community - they all attempt to make their designated "shoot" targets easily distinguished from the non-shoots. The most popular way is to arm them. A placard, a decal, a picture of a man/woman holding a gun. So we are training ourselves to shoot the other person holding the gun, irregardless of their actions or intentions. See gun = shoot.

Of course, that's not reality. Targets don't move, don't speak, don't act, don't communicate. People do. This is a software problem. The only way to sort out who is part of the problem and who is part of the solution is to do those things: Observe their actions; listen to what they are saying; take note of things such as how they are dressed; and if you are still in doubt, communicate with them in some fashion.


Since making the decision to walk about society armed, I considered this problem and made certain decisions to help keep myself from getting shot by first responders and other armed citizens. One action was to alter my clothing styles. I dress in a manner that suggests professional businessman. I don't want to look like a young punk.

Certainly the impressions we give off put some at disadvantages, and gives others advantage. A well dressed man in his 70s is very unlikely to be mistaken as a Violent Criminal Actor. A young black man dressed in the typical urban uniform will be. Its unfair, but its life. And, I'd also suggest were that same 70 year old man dres in tattered, dirty clothes and sporting 5 day old chin whiskers pull a gun, he might not be given the same deference. Likewise were the young black man, presenting himself well groomed and in a sportscoat and tie, to pull a gun, his appearance will influence observers to conclude he might not be part of the problem.


It just comes down to using your judgement and paying attention to such things. Both in the impression you make, and the impression you get from others.

 

[bogie]

In St. Louis, cops shoot other cops accidentally. Sometimes several times. Sometimes under or around vests or other armor. Oops. I don't know if the reason for that one ever made it past the blue line. Guy I knew in the DEA was more than a little irritated by it...

As for responding to a shooting situation - the witnesses are likely to say that YOU are the shooter, and not even notice the nutjob...

 

[MacEntyre]

No CCW holder has such a duty to act.

The duty of an LEO to act is given by the conditions of his employment.
A CCW holder may have a duty to act given by his convictions.
Both are good reasons to act.

No CCW holder has a duty to be a victim, or to stand by waiting for law enforcement to arrive.

 

[JMusic]

Yes you do have to live with what you did or didn't do. Getting caught up in the fray though can be very tense when the good guys arrive. As Jeff said be ready to be handcuffed. I work PC for several years and learned very quickly the need for cummunication of a PC person on site. I did fine when my own guys showed up. I ate some dirt a few times when I was outside my J.

Jim

 

[Thin Black Line]

Years back there was an attempted terrorist attack at a wedding reception
in Israel. It was a single guy who attempted the attack --not sure what kind
of weapon he had-- but, he was basically kicked out the door, beaten to death,
and finally a bullet put into him for good measure. Some old guy commented
to the effect of "Don't mess with us, we're the mountain jews." They were
immigrants from the Caucasus.

The reception was completed without further disruption.

 

[BullfrogKen]

MacEntyre said:
The duty of an LEO to act is given by the conditions of his employment.
A CCW holder may have a duty to act given by his convictions.

When one has a choice, its not a duty. A duty, by its nature, doesn't the personal choice of the individual charged with that duty in the decision of whether or not he must act.

A CCW holder may feel morally compelled to act to aid strangers, but the only duty he really has is to those family members he has under his care.

 

[buzz_knox]

There was a case where a grandmother shot a terrorist with an AK in Israel. The terrorists then quit using firearms and went to bombs. A concealed carry weapon is not much use against a suicide bomber, so being able to tell the CCW holder from the terrorist is not a big concern now.

I think you inadvertently mixed and matched some cases. The terrorists went to bombs when a group of them assaulted an Israeli restaurant. They were met with fire from the civilians inside. Reports were that the surviving terrorist stated it was unfair that the civilians were armed as they were supposed to be helpless. As more of these incidents occurred, terrorists switched to other means.

The incident involving the grandmother actually did involve a suicide bomber. She saw that he was dressed inappropriately (with a heavy jacket), was acting strangely, and had wires coming from under his clothing. So, she called a warning, drew and fired when he made a furtive movement. The news media gave credit to the security forces who arrived after the bomber was killed.

 

[Tim Burke]

Maybe they speak Hebrew to each other. That's not going to help us much over here.

 

[WildcatRegi]

simple example

A simple example of how problematic it is to respond to a violent incident just because you have a ccw....

You hear yells and a struggle going on, perhaps even a shot. You round the corner and here's a guy kicking the heck out of another one and a revolver is in reach of both.

Now, is the guy getting kicked the victim or is the guy doing the kicking the original victim who has luckily gotten the upper hand while fighting back?

They both see you pointing a gun at them and they both start wrestling for the dropped revolver....

who do you shoot?

I can see this same problem whenever multiple people start responding to something that isn't clear-cut.

 

[SniperStraz]

Maybe they speak Hebrew to each other. That's not going to help us much over here.

Israeli arabs can speak Hebrew too. Although, the thought of American gun owners creating a secret language for incidents like these is not a bad one.