How do you feel about frangible defensive ammuntion?

[xxxleafybugxxx]

I have recently discoverd DRT 9mm ammo witch I will absolutely be carrying when I can find some.

It seems as for defensive purposes, people generally carry "convetional" hollow points... IE critical defense, gold dot etc...

However, I have recently discovered a frangible round I am very impressed with. Now I would consider some of these to be "unconventional" because the grain count is alot lower than the standard count for that round. For example, the DRT 9mm round I absolutely love is 85 gr, while most other grain counts are 115+

Check this out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xh_Xudx_9cE

Let me know your thoughts... Do you like this type of ammo, and would you use it for defense?

 

[r1derbike]

Meh.

I wouldn't use it, only because my Ranger-Ts and Critical Defense rounds get the job done. It's going to lose a big head of steam as distance increases to target.

I'd like to see some BG autopsy results. Might be more receptive then.

 

[vamo]

It's going to lose a big head of steam as distance increases to target.

Which might not be a bad thing if you live in close quarters.

 

[HighExpert]

I use some called MagSafe. They are manufactured in Florida. The .40s&w round I use weighs 72gr and does 1940fps out of a Glock 27. Recoil is almost non-existent. Frangible with shot and epoxy in the cavity. Explodes a gallon milk jug full of water at 50yds. I am happy.

 

[MikeJackmin]

I would prefer something that can penetrate more deeply into the target. There's an FBI standard for minimum penetration depth in calibrated ballistic gel - 12 inches, I think? - and I doubt that any frangible ammo would achieve that, especially in a light-for-caliber bullet.

That said, there are a lot of opinions about ammunition, but in the end we each have to choose for ourselves.

 

[newbuckeye]

One of the LGS had about 2 cases of those 85gr on the shelf.....I need to go watch that utube vid.....brb

 

[xxxleafybugxxx]

Mike this particular round does meed that standard of 12 inches

 

[Theohazard]

How do I feel? I think they're mostly marketing hype. They tend to be unreliable as far as penetration goes, and the design of the bullets often makes those types of rounds much more prone to moisture intrusion, which can give you a dud round or a kaboom. There's a reason why almost every single law enforcement agency on the federal, state, and local level uses traditional hollow-point designs.

Also, they're usually much more expensive than even traditional premium hollow-points, so most people can't afford to test them extensively in their guns. I had a friend who carried a Glock 23 with RCBD frangible ammo. He never tested it with his gun because it was just too expensive. Then when he finally decided to shoot the ammo after carrying it for a year, it blew up his Glock on the third round. That's fairly typical with that type of compressed-metal bullet design; moisture gets into the case and can cause uneven powder burn which can cause a kaboom.

 

[Skribs]

That medium did not look like any ballistics gel I've seen. Normal ballistics gel will contract under the effects of the bullet, so you might get a bullet that goes 13" deep, but when the gel snaps back into place it ends up 11 or 12 inches. That's what it looked like here, considering the core was 11" deep in the video.

This round looks like the buck-and-ball shotgun loads or the recent G2 RIP load. You get an impressive, shallow wound channel that's most likely going to cause superficial wounds, and a solid core that penetrates deeper. In this case, that core isn't even deep enough to meet FBI specs in this medium - who knows what it would do in more realistic gel.

If your penetrating mass is only going to be half the mass that leaves the muzzle, you essentially double your recoil for the amount of damage you cause. That's why, for a handgun, I'd prefer a round that retained its weight and expanded, making a decent hole all the way through.

Essentially, compare something like this to a quality 9mm JHP. With this, you get an inch or two wide hole for a couple inches in gel (less deep when you factor in how much it takes to break through the skin, about equal to 4" of gel from what I've read), and then you get a 9mm fragment for 11", maybe more. With a quality JHP, you'll get expansion of anywhere from 0.5-0.65" for 12-18" of penetration. I'd prefer the consistent JHP over a frangible round.

 

[xxxleafybugxxx]

I know the whole fbi standard 1 is 12 inches. However I'm not in the fbi. This round has been tested in live game with fantastic results ( just YouTube drt live game)
I have no need for alot of Penetration in a defense round. As long as I know I can get to the vitals (which I have no concerns whatsoever with this round.)
Also when I shot this ammo today, it had a MUCH lighter recoil than anything else I was shooting.

 

[Strahley]

Seeing that the box sports a couple of ditzy looking women with poor gun handling (fingers on the triggers) and uses a name that you'd find in a video game (used to be named "dead right there"), I'm (still) going with no

I'll stick to real ammo

 

[newbuckeye]

I was also concerned about the lack of penetration. The LGS that has the 85gr has it priced at 16.99 for a box of 20, so much less than the "premium" hp's.

 

[wally]

Bullet placement, placement, and penetration are the three most important things in handgun effectiveness.

If you shoot it better than the alternatives, then I'd suggest using it, otherwise I'd worry it having adequate penetration.

As long as I know I can get to the vitals (which I have no concerns whatsoever with this round.)

Don't be so sure, its very common for a SD round to need to go through a hand or an arm on its way to where you want to put it.

The FBI requirements are based on actual experience and some very high profile bullet penetration failures.

IMHO, carrying ammo that is "what the cops carry" is the safe bet.

 

[Riomouse911]

I'll go with Wally's rationale, and I'll stick to my Critical Defense/Ranger SXT rounds as well. If I recall correctly Winchester Silvertips were issued to the FBI agents in Miami and those didn't have enough oomph to get deep enough into the hopped-up parolee's body until it was too late. How a bullet designed to break up instantly is going to penetrate to the depth needed I have no idea.

The DRT rounds are not super new, they've been out for a few years... they seem to be a modern take on the Glaser slugs we all remember coming out in the 1970's. (Copper cup, birdshot #12 <blue cap> or #6 <grey cap> inside.)

The Glasers blew the bejezus out of milk cartons in spectacular fashion, but I have never heard of any agency actually issuing them. (It's possible, I just haven't heard of any.)

IMHO if this type of ammo were the "be-all-end-all", everybody in uniform would be carrying it. But the best thing about living in the USA is you're free to give them a shot and use them .

 

[CountryUgly]

The DRT stuff has been around for a while. I've never seen the pistol ammo in action in person but if it's as reliable as the rifle ammo was on game that I've seen shot with DRT in person I'd...... leave it on the shelf. The rifle ammo wasnt near as "effective" as the promo videos imply. I've seen a few Yotes and one deer that were hit clean but not killed. they need to be dispatched with real bullets. There was almost always a massive entry wound but not much in the way of penetration. a 6" wide 3" deep cavity was the norm. the rest of the ammo was used for blowing up milk jugs (which it was very good at).

 

[Havok7416]

I'll go with Wally's rationale, and I'll stick to my Critical Defense/Ranger SXT rounds as well. If I recall correctly Winchester Silvertips were issued to the FBI agents in Miami and those didn't have enough oomph to get deep enough into the hopped-up parolee's body until it was too late. How a bullet designed to break up instantly is going to penetrate to the depth needed I have no idea.

I may be nitpicking, but there's an important point to make regarding the Miami Shootout. Neither suspect was "hopped up" in any way.

From Wikipedia (the first source I located): "Toxicology tests showed that the abilities of Platt and Matix to fight through multiple traumatic gunshot wounds and continue to battle and attempt to escape were not achieved through any chemical means. Both of their bodies were drug-free at the time of their deaths."

I agree with what some of the others here have said. I will not trust the wonder capabilities of a "breakthrough" bullet. They may look amazing, but I haven't seen one yet that performs past its own hype.

 

[Tom_AZ]

I would not use it. There are better designs.

 

[Davek1977]

My life is too valuable be trust to a gimmick. I'll take proven designs with a history of actually stopping people.

 

[stressed]

Problem with light for caliber and fragmenting is lack of penetration. I fired it out of my P08 Luger and it achieved 1363 FPS over chrono. I have it slotted for cull test on 200lb+ hog, but there are many other rounds ahead of it in line.

 

[CWL]

None of those super-expensive frangibles have done well when tested on ballistic gelatin wrapped with a few layers of denim. As noted, they make a big, but superficial surface wound, but fail miserably in penetrating to vital organ depths. If you are being assaulted by a BG with ample body fat or muscles, all you'll do is scoop out a chunk of their surface skin, leaving a very alive and pissed attacker. Probably not effective in penetrating skull either.

Leave them to the ninjas and stoke your SD/HD weapons with traditional jhps or even fmjs. Practice hitting your targeted CNS areas. Rely on practice, not so-called magic bullets.

 

[Havok7416]

CWL, I hadn't even thought of that in that context, but you made a good point.

 

[pistolero guy]

Frangible ammo

the only place I have seen it used is by the military when guarding high value items such as aircraft that if hit by a stray bullet can do buku damage. I had several boxes left over of 5.56 frangible that I tested several years ago on different types of material to see how they performed. I wouldn't recommend it for a defensive option unless I needed to protect delicate or expensive stuff like the airforce was using it for.

 

[JRWhit]

I ended my in head debate with ," 11" of penetration."
The FBI minimum is 12" to reach vitals and do damage. I believe the full range is 12-18". I do not have the resource or time to do my own study so I will comfortably rely on the FBI standards. If the round failed with one layer of denim, then what would happen with a heavier dress like leather? My opinion is that rounds like these try to capture the Hollywood hoax of one shot blowing a guys arm off or something similar. I will however have to get some for blowing up milk jugs.

 

[Balrog]

What if you need to penetrate through a barrier, such as if a person shooting at you is behind light cover?
I don't think frangible ammo will likely penetrate a hard barrier and remain intact.

Magsafe and other brands seemed to be more popular and more talked about in the early 90s. This is the first time I have thought about them in many years.

 

[CWL]

What if you need to penetrate through a barrier, such as if a person shooting at you is behind light cover?
I don't think frangible ammo will likely penetrate a hard barrier and remain intact.

The definition of "frangible" is exactly the opposite of penetration, it is designed specifically to "breaks, distorts or yields on impact".