How does .303, 8mm, 7.62x54r, and 30-06 stack up?

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The Exile

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Still trying to decide what surplus rifle is right for me, thought I could narrow things down by ammo availability meaning Lee Enfield was out unless I could track down an Ishapore and thought I could dismiss the Mauser because I prefered peep sights to notch sights; but I'll probably end up handloading one way or another and I found a company which makes after market peep sights for Kar98s so that's not even really a problem so it's almost like for all my thinking I've gone in a big circle. Trying to go back to the ammo to see if that can help me eliminate some options; so if anyone has any nuggets of wisdom on any of these it'd be much appreciated.

Also I know a lot of surplus 7.62x54r is Berdan primed but is it possible to source brass you can reload or is it surplus only?
 
There is brass available for all of the above. There is also not that much practical difference between the above mentioned cartridges in the context of shooting them from a milsurp rifle. I’ve owned them all and if I was shooting all 4 cartridges from the same rifle at 200 yards, I don’t think I could tell you which was which.

So I guess what I’m saying is pick whichever rifle you like. CMP has Garand’s starting at $700.
 
Performance wise they're all pretty close. I reload for 303, 7.92x57, 7.5x55 Swiss, 30-06, and just getting start with 7.7Jap. So ammo availability isn't an issue. Mostly use them for hunting, but plink with them too. Hard to pick one favorite as all the old milsurp rifles and cartridges are neat in their own way for me.

Find one you like, get a press, dies and components and have at it! :)
 
Reloading opens a lot of doors. The .310-.312 bores... 7,62x54R and .303 Brit have a somewhat limited, but adequet bullet selection. I like light recoiling .310 123 grain bullets originally intended for X39. 8mm has similar issues, limited but adequet options. The .30 bores...7,5 French, .308, 7,5 Swiss, and good ol' 30-06 are the easiest bullet wise. 6,5 bores are also easy to for bullet selection. Thanks to PRVI Partizan, all have quality brass available at a reasonable price.

As for ammunition availability, 7.62x54R will have the most surplus options, but as you note the brass is mostly Berdan/corrosive primed. You'll find a lot around a decent gunshow for modest prices. .308 or .30-06 will be the most plentiful in inexpensive practice ammo that will be reloadable.

My personal choice for a surplus rifle based on ammo/component price and availability long term would be Springfield, M17 or M1 Garand, or a Mauser in .308. Close second would be a Mosin Nagant. Third would be one of the Swiss Models (gets points for using standard .308 bullets). Then anything in 7,92 Mauser. I bump the Enfield down the list as they stretch brass and will wear it out faster. Bringing up the rear are the other Mauser metric calibers, although 6.5x55 Swedish would rank highly, but the rifles are becoming very expensive.
 
I have experience with 7.62x54r and 8mm. While I wish I had experience with 303 Brit, I can’t seem to find a rifle when I have money to buy one. I don’t know how you would compare them, so let’s look at them in a few different ways:

Loaded ammo- ‘06 no contest. I don’t like the round (gasp) but it’s so popular that whatever you want will be available in that chambering. Second will be 8mm, but a lot of that is loaded fairly weak.

Reloads- (components) again ‘06. Being .308” and that being such a widely used bore diameter, bullets will be there for whatever you want. The .303 and ‘x54r both use .310” bullets which aren’t offered in the same varieties but are sadly (perhaps due to lacking variety) overlooked. There are some great bullets for them from hornady and a few other bullet makers that shoot very well in my guns. 8mm is my favorite on the list, but the bullets that work well in the now rare 8mm mag are too tough for 8mm Mauser, I’m told.
(Actual loading) most of these shoot well with 4895, varget, and other similarly available powders. 7.62x54r can be a pain to load because of its neck sometimes imploding into the case. Get the setup right.
Shooter friendliness- this is subjective, but in my experience the 8mm (or just the Mauser rifle) shoots easy. It doesn’t kick so much as it shoves. It also is rimless and controlled round fed if shot out of a Mauser rifle. The 7.62x54r is a great shooter out of mosin-nagant rifles, but the rimmed case bothers some people. In my experience the ‘06 is punishing. In the same rifles, it hits me harder (perceived recoil) than my .300wsm with max loads of 180grn. I’ve not shot a 303 Brit, but unique to the rifle that you probably imagine when considering it is that it cocks on closing. This makes it (according to the all-wise internet) one of the fastest bolt actions. Straight pull may be faster.

Hunting- some like to hunt with milsurps. I am one of them. Milsurps in the chambering you mentioned would all be good hunting rifles. The rounds are certainly adequate for deer, as the original menu was people. Ease of carry and weight are a factor here, though. Mosin-nagants are long. I like them in the woods but many do not. 8mm Mauser really shines here because the k in k98 is for kar, which somehow means short. The Brit is long too, but not overwhelmingly so. The ‘06 in an 03 may be long but a Garand isn’t. On the other hand a Garand is heavy. Your call.

Hope that helped. If you need a summary, they are all good. Pick what you want the most or what is the best value for how you want to use it vs opportunities to use it vs cost. Then buy something and go shoot it.
 
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30-06 is the cheapest choice for sure 15 cents a piece for brass online
https://www.defenderammunition.com/products/bulk-brass-by-the-pound?variant=29366745301090
some of the brass needs a little work since they are range brass and you get a mixed lot most are not military and are commercial i notice :D go cheaper pick a sporter say the Eddie 1917 enfield or Springfield 03 since then you can put on a muzzle break with out damaging the historic value and the recoil will be tame down 6mm pleasant to shoot
 
Get a milsurp gun with a receiver (peep) sight. That narrows your choices to a No. 4 Enfield, an M1903A3 Springfield, or a P14/M1917. Maybe a Garand if you consider that a milsurp.

Ammo in.30-06 or .303 is not really a problem. I recommend the relatively recent (1970's) Greek HXP surplus that has reloadable brass.
 
Enfield Pattern P-17

I like this rifle over the others for a few reasons.

Basically for a one surplus rifle that you want to shoot a lot the P-17 has a lot going for it. Number one for me is ammo availability and number two is the aperture sights. I hate the military post and notch sights.

That pretty much leaves just the P-17, the 03A3, and the Garand. The P-17 van usually be purchased for much less that the other two.
 
Random 8 explained it pretty well.
Don't overlook a 7x57 Mauser. It's top of my list.
Shoots .284 bullets, low recoil, and uses common powders.
 
I have rifles chambered in and load for all of the above, plus 7.5x54 French, 7.5x55 Swiss, 7.7x58 Jap (and 7.35x51 Carcano)

Ballistically, the .303 is a little weaker than the rest. .30-06 is technically the most powerful. Practically, they'll pretty much all perform the same for most purposes. Bullet selection for the '06 (and 7.5x54, 7.5x55) is superior with the .308" bores.

In the end, I would choose based on which rifle you like rather than the ammo.
 
Buying factory, .30-06 gets you the most options and performance.
But cheap but good, I'd go 7.62x54r.

Jeeper beat me to this, so ditto.

I'll add the caveat that if you go Garand, you'll either need an adjustable gas plug like the Schuster or stick with M2 ball, which limits you to just one basic 30-06 handload. Also, because autoloaders are a bit harder on brass, I'd plan on a bigger supply. For an old boltgun I usually figure 100 cases is about right for me, but I like to have at least 3-400 good cases for an autoloader.

Personally, I prefer to download my milsurp bolt actions to around 30-30 territory where possible. My fuel of choice for this is IMR4198 or 4227.
 
I load all three. Each has advantages over the other. 30-06 is the easiest, although not in effort. This is due to plenty of brass at lower cost and better and more bullet choices. Rifles on 30-06 that are surplus cost more as a general rule.
 
I would choose based on which rifle you like rather than the ammo.

Agreed.

In the OP’s shoes, I’d first ask myself - why do I want a mil-surp rifle at all? (An answer to this question might end up being, “I don’t.”).

If your answer is that you just want a cheap rifle, great, find the cheapest one with cheapest ammo and go. In this case, you’ll likely be better served by purchasing a modern manufactured sporting rifle from one of a half dozen models in 308win, 5.56/223, or 7.62x39, as mil-surps often are not the most affordable rifle or ammo on the market any longer.

If your answer is related to a passion for military history, then your particular preference in era or conflict will predicate which model makes sense.

If you’re collecting, then “all of them” is the answer, but since you’re shooting them, I assume collecting isn’t the primary focus.

The answer, “I just really like the idea of mil-surps,” is really like saying, “I just really like rifles,” at which point again, your list opens so broadly to include better options in the market. All of these mil-surps are different animals, some finely produced, some roughly, some semi-auto, some bolt...

So ask yourself why you want a mil-surp rifle, and which one you want, if any, will reveal itself.
 
As someone who has tinkered with a few milsurps, here is how I see it.

A) Anything in .30-06 bolt actions will be easy to find ammo for it--you will find some South American Mausers using the round or U.S. firearms. These will generally be higher in price for the firearm but cheaper for the ammo. There will be reloading options galore.

B) Anything in 7.62 x54r will have cheap steel cased Russian Ammo and adequate brass supply. Most of these are Mosin Nagants and that is still a bit cheaper than the British Enfield series and much cheaper than U.S. choices. It is also a rimmed case and the firearms are a bit cheaper. Reloading is not difficult but choices are more limited than for the .30-06 for bullets etc.

C) The old .303 British will be more expensive than .30-06 or 7.62x54r (although you could try Wolf's Steel cased .303 now). Like the 7.62x54r, the bullet selection is less than the .30-06 and depending on which Enfield (old SMLE, WWII era No. 4's, or post war No. 4's, bore sizes can vary a bit especially war time production. The P14's are a bit better on that account. The firearms will be between the U.S. military rifles at the high end and the Mosins at a bit below them. That is considering the "average shooter grade rifle".

D) The 8x57, 6.5x55 or 7x57 Mausers. The older small ring 7x57's are usually the cheapest if you go by the Spanish rifles. The Chilean 95's are a bit better made but higher. The 8x57 varies in firearm prices depending on which country the Mauser were made. German mausers generally bring more, then Czech and FN, and so on. Turks used to be the bottom of the bunch but have risen in prices lately. Spanish m43 Mausers are often a good buy as well. Use in WWII spike the price as does WWI era. The 6.5x55 are predominately Mausers (with some Krags being chambered in it), and generally bring quite good prices that often approach U.S. military arms in prices.
Ammunition and reloading for these is pretty decent with many of these rounds still being used and bullets/brass choices pretty good as 6.5 and 7 mm cartridges on the commercial types ensures plentiful supplies. The .323 bullets for the 8x57 is more like the choices for the .303 or 7.62x54 as being limited.

You will find some of these rebarrelled, rechambered, sleeved, etc. into cartridges that may or may not be appropriate. If considering such, become educated about the changes and the quality of these. Some are fine such as the FR-8, some are problematic such as the Chilean sleeved 7.62 NATO model 95 Mausers or the Spanish m93 Mausers converted to 7.62 NATO or CETME depending on your source, and so on. Avoid these if you do not know how to evaluate firearms for safety or at least get a gunsmith's opinion before firing such. The temptation of cheap ammo (usually 7.62 NATO) has led some folks to extoll the virtues of these conversions but the real safety of firing cartridges beyond the original design specifications is something much less than today's commercial rifles that are more accurate, cheaper, and able to handle the pressures involved easily.

E) Everything else: due to military requirements, many countries wanted their own cartridge. In shooter grade firearms, the prices of these often reflect the difficulties in obtaining ammo and/or reloading. Krags, Carcanos in either caliber, Lebel, Swiss, Siamese, Japanese, 7.5 French, 6.5 Mannlicher, and other more obscure cartridges all reflect firearms that loaded ammunition will be more scarce, that will dry up in buying frenzies, and be the last to be produced when the frenzy ends. Bullet selection for reloading can be an issue for some like the Carcanos but not something like the Krags or the 7.5 Swiss/7.5 French. Brass can always be a problem and due to the age of any surplus on a lot of these rounds, I personally would not risk my firearm or health on such. If you must, then pull the bullets and/or reload the brass with modern powders. As a result, you can find a lot of these in quite good shape at a reasonable price but loaded ammunition difficult to find and some components may be difficult to find for reloading.

As far as costs, you can find a lot of these military surplus rifles that have been sporterized, sometimes lightly, for a lot less. Those that have been rechambered, D&T'ed, scoped, restocked into commercial stocks, etc. can often be obtained at prices competitive with the latest whiz bang rifles. What these lack is that you get no guarantees, no recalls for unsafe parts, replacement parts are expensive, dubious quality of sporterizing/and/or safety issues, and it is almost getting prohibitive in cost to restore some of these rifles if key parts like barrels, stocks, receivers, have been altered substantially. If you want the experience of firing these old rifles without caring about full military trim, these are often good buys and are often half the price of the as issued shooter grade types. There will, however, be little upside to price compared with those left in military trim.

Semi-automatics milsurps are a whole nother market where aside from a few WWII era rifles designed from scratch to be semi-automatic such as the Garand or SKS, most were select fire and altered to fit U.S. firearm regulations with some of those alterations resulting in quite horrible firearms. That whole thing is worthy of another post.

I am also leaving out that cast bullets with lower pressure loads are also ideal for a lot of these old warhorses. Bullets can be sized to the bore, cast loads generate lower pressures lessening the risk in firing century old rifles, and accuracy can be stunning even in old worn pitted bores if one spend the time necessary to work up accurate loads for your particular rifle. One issue that is also sidestepped is that many of these rifles used berdan primers which a major difficulty in reloading surplus brass.

My personal foray into milsurps was through a No. 4 Enfield that was lightly sportered. Then a Mosin Nagant 91/30 was bought. I learned to reload for both and both used common components such as bullets and powders. Both had and still do have relatively cheap commercial ammunition loaded for them. From that point, I accumulated but generally focused on cartridge families where commercial ammo was available until recently getting into more obscure stuff. My stuff, by and large, would never be subject to serious collectibility simply because I bought them as shooters or restored them as shooters for historical and mechanical interest. Your interests may vary.

At the present time, I have little interest in casting bullets but there are a few specialty casters that do have storebought lead cast bullets for old military surplus rifles which means that you only need brass and powder.
 
Anyone priced these things recently?

https://imgur.com/W7SZIpw

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None of these were ever exactly cheap, but the prices I have seen at the local gunstore are just jaw dropping! And I was floored by the asking price of Finnish Mosin Nagants.

The OP ought to dance down the local gunstore and see what he can afford, then he can worry about the esoterics of ammunition cost. He might find it cheaper, and better, to buy a brand new production rifle!
 
I load all three. Each has advantages over the other. 30-06 is the easiest, although not in effort. This is due to plenty of brass at lower cost and better and more bullet choices. Rifles on 30-06 that are surplus cost more as a general rule.
but sporters are cheap
bids is only a 105$ on this eddiestone and you got pep sites still on this one
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Barrel measures 26" in length with a mostly bright but frosted and lightly pitted bore.
https://www.gunbroker.com/item/836103951
 
You should ask yourself why you want a milsurp. The cartridges you have mentioned are pretty similar ballistically. Do you want a sporter or in original configuration? Although I really like the .303, if it is the only rifle you plan on buying, I'd steer clear of it. Mine are really hard on brass. If you want ammo to blast, go with the Mosin-Nagant.
 
Enfield Pattern P-17
Just to clarify, we are talking about two distinct rifles here: the Pattern 14 in .303 British, and the M1917 in U.S. .30-06. They're externally similar, having been made in the same three factories.

If you are considering the Pattern 14, you should also consider the No. 4 Enfield. It uses the same .303 ammo, and two of the three alternate rear sights -- especially the micrometer Singer sight -- are superior to the P14 sight. The No. 4 also has a choice of four different lengths of buttstocks.
 
Both the p14 and it's sibling the US m1917 rifles are beasts that are over engineered. The p13 was the forerunner and designed for a hot .276 new cartridge design. Ww I interrupted these plans as the p13 and the new round had teething problems.

The p14 is grossly overbuilt for the .303 and is a favorite to convert to the .303 Epps which has superior ballistics. The m1917 actually feeds better than the p14 as the original design was for a rimless case. It holds six rounds too in the mag.

Regarding the sights, the p14 has better sights than a smle but you have to get a Parker hale micrometer sight for target use. Some no 4's have the micrometer sight as issued but the expedient battle sight is inferior and the remaining wwII alternate sights are about on par with the p14's which is not surprising as these were based on the p14 sights. None of the rifles' issued rear sights have windage adjustments which ironically the no 1 mk 3 rifle did until about 1916.
 
Some no 4's have the micrometer sight as issued but the expedient battle sight is inferior and the remaining wwII alternate sights are about on par with the p14's which is not surprising as these were based on the p14 sights.
Actually there are two micrometer sights for the No. 4 -- the standard Singer (Mark I) and the add-on Parker-Hale.

The Marks II, III, and IV sights were wartime cost-saving measures. The Mark II is a flip sight that resembles the early M1 carbine sight. Marks III and IV have a sliding aperture resembling the P14/M1917 sight.
 
7.92 mauser, 30-06, 303 British, 6.5/ 7.7 jap, 6.5 Dutch, 7.62 NATO, 7mm/ 7.65mm mauser, 7.62x54R, 7.5 French, 7.5 swiss, 6.5 Swedish and 450 Martini Henry are just some of the surplus I reload for on occasion.
Need to find a set of 8mm lebel dies next.

They all are just about the same except the Martini. I'd just buy whichever rifle you really want and then a single stage press, dies, shell holder, projos, large primers and a couple of pounds of powder.
 
There was a time, not long ago, when a person could be basically equipped to hunt deer for under $100 by using a milsurp. That doesn't work any longer. Today the low cost alternative is a basic commercial rifle.

The Finn's had the best of the Mosins. Even so, the bore diameters were not uniform at .310. I had a 1898 Tula that slugged at .314. So watch to be sure you get what you what you pay for.

7.62x54R ammo that is reloadable is easy to find, and it is a very good performer. For some reason, case annealing tends to be marginal.

In 8mm, good ballistic coefficients start around 225 grains, but the case does not have enough capacity to propel such a bullet. It's an effective cartridge, but not as nicely balanced as the 30-06 or 7x57. And I've had a few 8x57s, but none of them shot better than 3MOA.

The 6.5x55 is a great cartridge. A milsurp Swede with Mojo sights is a very accurate and abundantly adequate hunting rifle. With the long barrel, pushing 140 grains at 2800 FPS is quite possible at the recommended milsurp pressure.
 
Don't count out the 7x57 Mauser. Good performing round, and you can go deer and elk hunting with it with less recoil then 8mm Mauser. My two cents.
 
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