How does ATF trace old guns

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castile

castile

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So if its a new gun they can go to the manufacture and find what dealer and who the dealer sold it to. But what if a dealer gets a 50 year old gun that comes in, and they fill out the form and it stays with the dealer unless they go out of business ect. How does ATF even know where to look with no data base?
 
castile said:
So if its a new gun they can go to the manufacture and find what dealer and who the dealer sold it to. But what if a dealer gets a 50 year old gun that comes in, and they fill out the form and it stays with the dealer unless they go out of business ect. How does ATF even know where to look with no data base?
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For what reason? Like, for a criminal investigation?
 
No paticular reason, as far as I have been told by ffl friends, they don't send in their 4377 forms unless they go out of business or are investigated by ATF. They stay at the shop, just like my C&R forms don't go in unless I don't renew my lisc. So if a gun that is old comes into a shop and the ATF does not know and has no way of knowing because its illegal to have a data base, how would they even know where to look for a particular gun?
 
doubleh said:
Apparently it's very easy. Just watch any TV crime drama or movie. :evil: Sorry, couldn't help myself. In reality I have no idea.
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Yeah, just like how they figure out some dead guy’s identity; dental records! Really, you are going to go to EVERY dentist in town and try to match x-rays? Some dentists have 20, 50, thousand + patient data base. Multiply that time 500 dentists in a large city. What if they just moved to that city? The “what if’s?” Go on and on.

edited for sp
 
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castile said:
How does ATF even know where to look with no data base?
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I'm going to suggest that they don't.

A few years ago, I purchased, from a gun shop, a handgun that had been stolen from a different gun shop that was about 25 miles away. The firearm had been reported as stolen, and all the paperwork from my purchase had been properly submitted. I discovered the fact that I had purchased a stolen gun while talking with the gun shop owner who had been robbed. There is no one place to check with all the information.
 
When the law was passed, the first proposal was that the government would keep the firearm transfer records. The compromise was that the data would exist only at the dealer's location. That was exactly to prevent the government from having a comprehensive database of who owned what.

If a gun shows up at a crime scene, law enforcement can check with the manufacturer to see which dealer received it. They can then go to the dealer and search the records to see who bought it. They can then go to that buyer to see what they can learn. In many cases, there is no traceable link.

When a dealer goes out of business, all the 4473s go to the government. I would bet that they are then digitized and may even be computer searchable.

IIRC, dealers have to keep the 4473s for 20 years. After that they can shred them. (Somebody confirm??) So I expect that the loudenboomer I bought from Joe's House of Loudenboomers 25 years ago is no longer traceable.
 
A friend had a number of rifles stolen from his house twelve years ago. The State Police arrived to investigate, equipped with a list of every gun he had ever purchased through an FFL.
They asked him specifically about every gun on the list.
This was in Pennsylvania, not sure if the same would be true elsewhere.
 
The ATF starts with the manufacturer, then the distributor, then the dealer. They follow the chain as far as they can. When I worked in a gun shop I handled a couple of calls from the ATF. They'd tell me the gun, the serial number, who the link up the chain was, and most importantly the date the link's records said they transferred the gun to us. Then I'd go up in the attic, use the date to find our acquisition record in our old bound books and call ATF back with the info on our disposition record. Then they'd call the next link in the chain....
 
castile said:
So if its a new gun they can go to the manufacture and find what dealer and who the dealer sold it to.
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Whether the gun is new or old doesn't matter. When it was transferred does.
When local LE request ATF to do a firearm trace, ATF first checks with the manufacturer who tells them where they shipped the gun, eventually leading to the dealer and the first retail customer who filled out the Form 4473. The dealer emails that 4473 to the National Tracing Center. ATF may or may not contact that customer.

If the manufacturer or dealer is out of business, ATF will have their bound books and any 4473's less than twenty years old. They'll go into a shipping container with a flashlight and find the 4473 from that sale. If the 4473 was over age twenty and the dealer destroyed it, then all ATF will be able to look up in that dealers bound book is the name of the customer and the date transferred.


But what if a dealer gets a 50 year old gun that comes in, and they fill out the form and it stays with the dealer unless they go out of business ect.
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A pistol made in 1971 would have been transferred according to the 1968 Gun Control Act, the recordkeeping virtually identical to how it happens today.
For a firearm made prior to 1968? It depends on how well the manufacturer kept records. Rifles and shotguns weren't even required to have serial#'s until the GCA'68.


How does ATF even know where to look with no data base?
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They requesting LE agency gave them the manufacturer, model, caliber and serial# engraved on the firearm. So ATF starts by contacting the manufacturer.
Lots of phone calls, faxes and emails. A licensee must respond to a firearm trace request within 24 hours, so manufacturer>distributor>dealer.

A couple of years ago, in a 2-3 week period I had two trace requests:
#1 was for a Glock frame that was in my safe, awaiting pickup by the buyer. The seller, a pawn shop in GA was taking new Glocks, selling the frames separate from the slide/barrel assembly. The requesting agency pulled the serial# off that slide or barrel, not the actual firearm. So next time you go to build out an 80% frame, think about who may have the original frame. :uhoh:
#2 was a pistol that my customer had in his safe! I asked him to send me a photo of it on top of that days Dallas Morning News with the serial# visible. "Uh, the requesting agency must have made a mistake" said ATF. Ya think?


https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/fact-sheet/fact-sheet-national-tracing-center
 
So if grandpa dies, and grandma sells Grandpa's old Colt to a shop and its stolen and used in a crime they have no place to even know where to start? So the system is not an easy one for the ATF to use unless there is an unbroken chain they can follow. I was reading they want to make it so they can start a data base on all guns if they also get a UBGC.
 
Lineman65 said:
A friend had a number of rifles stolen from his house twelve years ago. The State Police arrived to investigate, equipped with a list of every gun he had ever purchased through an FFL.
They asked him specifically about every gun on the list.
This was in Pennsylvania, not sure if the same would be true elsewhere.
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Blame your state for recording those guns, not ATF.
 
Mr. Civilian gives a gun to family member who sells it to someone else and there is no record through the last two transactions. Individuals here in Arkansas can go to a gun show and sell to another individual with no record unless the buyer is a licensed dealer. I doubt if 25% of the gun sales and trades at a gun show are recorded. The gun laws that we have now are not enforced. Yet the powers that be want more laws. I don't know why ATF even exists. Looks like a waste of tax dollars to me.
 
.There are always dealers at a GS that are not lisc. I just bought a vintage revolver a while back as ftf no nothing. I paid with my cc so if they kept a record they know who it went to and I have not issue with it. But it got me to thinking.
 
Add the factor of Armslist, and other deals in store parking lots and gun clubs.

Tracing might be impossible for many thousands of guns
. -—-Most buyers/sellers keep no records——.

For people who are overly worried about the govt., many of them might Now want to consider using Armslist when practical- possibly for the first time.

If nothing else, the variety available is many times better than in any two-three of our gun shops.
 
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The older the gun, and the more times it has changed hands, the harder it is to trace. (Duh!) Therefore, there's a certain percentage of guns that are, for all practical purposes, untraceable. It's a safe bet that that prewar 1911 that you bought at a gun show can't be traced. That's even true if you bought it from an FFL dealer -- that's because, from the time of manufacture until it got into that dealer's hands, there were many breaks in the documented chain of possession. (Previous owners are dead, previous dealers have gone out of business, Forms 4473 have been destroyed after the lapse of 20 years, etc.)

When a normal trace goes dead, the ATF has to work the other way, beginning with the current possessor and going backwards. This is seldom fruitful if individuals are uncooperative, are dead, or simply have forgotten. And what purpose would that serve, anyway? The only thing that matters is who had it last.
 
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I wouldn't have too many worries about my
firearms. If an actual ban came about, I would imagine it'd be like the gun repressive countries do now. You won't be able to transport your firearms anywhere without fear of confiscation or arrest, you wouldn't be able to go to a range. If you were out in the "country " somewhere, the sound of gunfire would attract attention. If you used a firearm for self defense, the law would be involved.
It wouldn't matter whether or not any agency had a record of it or not.
All the alarms about gun ownership that were raised decades ago should have been heeded instead of blown off as paranoia,
but we were all too complacent and apathetic and thought it wouldn't affect us
 
In free states (no UBC for F to F sales) some even will pay a premium for a "paperless" firearm sale. I will however make someone go through a BGC if it is not someone I know as OK to purchase legally. Have lost a sale because of this but the next guy was OK with it.
 
castile said:
So if grandpa dies, and grandma sells Grandpa's old Colt to a shop and its stolen and used in a crime they have no place to even know where to start? So the system is not an easy one for the ATF to use unless there is an unbroken chain they can follow. I was reading they want to make it so they can start a data base on all guns if they also get a UBGC.
Click to expand...

Well, there's a mis-perception here.
ATF is not involved in sales, only in providing the form to be filled out upon a sale (and then, only by a dealer).
Guy sells a Bergman pistol to a shop, it goes in the Bound Book and no further.
If the LGS sells it, the 4473 will have "Bergman" potentially as an identifier (if no s/n, it's meant to be listed as "No serial number").

ATF is only involved if, say a Bergman is found at a crime scene.
At which point they will be at the intersection of rock and hard place. They are not going to be calling up Bergman any time soon.
They would probably try searching antique firearms auctions hoping for some sort of a match. But, that's going to be about it. But, it's likely going to be a cold trail.
 
Ignition Override said:
Add the factor of Armslist, and other deals in store parking lots and gun clubs.

Tracing might be impossible for many thousands of guns
. -—-Most buyers/sellers keep no records——.

For people who are overly worried about the govt., many of them might Now want to consider using Armslist when practical- possibly for the first time.

If nothing else, the variety available is many times better than in any two-three of our gun shops.
Click to expand...
If you want to go Armslist be sure that it is FTF. I have had some of my high dollar consignments that were listed on GB show up on AL for half price. The people who listed them even had the audacity to use my listing and pictures. Beware!
 
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