How far could/would you push a .38 special +P+ load?

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Russ57

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I'm not allowed to shoot .357 magnum at my local club. I can shoot .45 long colt though. We all know you can load that well past .357 magnum levels.

So I have a S&W 686 that I would like to shoot more. And I would like the loads to be close to real .357 loads for practice reasons. Maybe even stout enough to do for feral hog as a backup gun. One thing though, I need to be able to use small pistol magnum primers.

So if you were only going to use these hand loads in a S&W 686 with new starline 38 +P brass how far would you be willing to push it? Give me X FPS with this many grain bullet. Or so many grains of this powder behind this bullet.

I'm torn between a 158 grain SWC or heavier "Keith" style vs 140/158 grain XTP. Leaning towards the 158 grain XTP. Maybe 2400 powder....maybe 900+ FPS. Sound reasonable or suicidal?
 
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I like the top Unique load and the 2400 load. They are both stout as .38 Special goes. Gas check is great but it can be duplicated with other SWC 158 grain bullets. Flat based is better than beveled base for avoiding potential leading issues. I use a RimRock 160 SWC wide nosed bullet that would work well on hogs.
 
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I load a bunch of 20k rounds with 180s in 38 cases. I only own 357 so I can't mix them up and put them in the wrong gun, so that worry is not a thing for me. You can absolutely go all the way to 35k in a 38 case I just don't. The physical equipment can handle it, your discretion is the limit. Your definitely in an area where your out of manual and into software. Don't guess at it.
 
There was a 38 spec load from, I believe, Speer #7 that pushed into the 357 range. The old Outdoorsman load was, again I believe, a 158 gr. @ 1150.
 
Russ57 said:
I'm not allowed to shoot .357 magnum at my local club. I can shoot .45 long colt though. We all know you can load that well past .357 magnum levels.

So I have a S&W 686 that I would like to shoot more. And I would like the loads to be close to real .357 loads for practice reasons. Maybe even stout enough to do for feral hog as a backup gun. One thing though, I need to be able to use small pistol magnum primers.

So if you were only going to use these hand loads in a S&W 686 with new starline 38 +P brass how far would you be willing to push it? Give me X FPS with this many grain bullet. Or so many grains of this powder behind this bullet.

I'm torn between a 158 grain SWC or heavier "Keith" style vs 140/158 grain XTP. Leaning towards the 158 grain XTP. Maybe 2400 powder....maybe 900+ FPS. Sound reasonable or suicidal?
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For hunting loads in .38Spl, I've gone with both Unique and 2400 (and IMR 4227 and Accurate No.5/No.7 and HS-6 and.. and... and...) but the best, most useful, overall best general purpose drop things in their tracks .38Spl is the old Lyman 358429 Keith 170gr. LSWC cast from Alloy #2, 16:1, or "hardball" with a good wax lube over 5.0gr. of Unique. It's a mini version of Thor's hammer at 25yds and below +P pressure. Primer doesn't make a big difference with this load at all. I've used SPP, SPM, SRP all with equal success and very little difference in velocity; in the range of +/- < 50fps.
 
Are you shooting paper at this “Club” or do they have special targets?
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
For hunting loads in .38Spl, I've gone with both Unique and 2400 (and IMR 4227 and Accurate No.5/No.7 and HS-6 and.. and... and...) but the best, most useful, overall best general purpose drop things in their tracks .38Spl is the old Lyman 358429 Keith 170gr. LSWC cast from Alloy #2, 16:1, or "hardball" with a good wax lube over 5.0gr. of Unique. It's a mini version of Thor's hammer at 25yds and below +P pressure. Primer doesn't make a big difference with this load at all. I've used SPP, SPM, SRP all with equal success and very little difference in velocity; in the range of +/- < 50fps.
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What are you hunting with a 38 Spl? What firearm?
 
Cheesemaker said:
What are you hunting with a 38 Spl? What firearm?
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Feral pigs with a Colt Official Police 4".
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Shown here with a Cast Performance 200gr. WFN-GC over 5.0gr. of Unique with a Federal SR primer.
 
I think this is a bad idea. You're loads may find their way to another gun, no one intends for this to happen obviously but it is possible regardless of you're care or intention .
If I were you, I'd load the 38 sp brass as it sounds like that's what's required and seat those bullets long. Long enough to prevent chambering in any 38 special. At that point use 357 load data if similar length and you're technically still playing by their rules.

I can't imagine why the club would not want the lil old 357 except maybe it tears up the backstop. If that's the case , you'll be doing just that. If there is no reason and they're irrational, maybe find a new club.

Good luck
 
I was surprised at this…
71641D3B-6E85-48B0-A4EE-5853B0686CB0.jpeg
A 158 gr JSP at over 1000 fps! I double checked with Hodgdon 25, and it lists 12.5 gr H4227@1052 fps. I know it’s not exactly the same powder, but they are close enough for comparison.

If Gordon’s Reloading Tool is close to correct, that 12.2 gr IMR 4227 with a 158 gr XTP will give 1046 fps at 20662 psi from a 5” barrel. That’s just a computer model though, but that’s just a little over +P spec. 12 gr shows to be under 20,000 psi, and still over 1000 fps.

This is old data from the 80s, so use at your own risk.
 
Mr_Flintstone said:
I was surprised at this…
View attachment 1091272
A 158 gr JSP at over 1000 fps! I double checked with Hodgdon 25, and it lists 12.5 gr H4227@1052 fps. I know it’s not exactly the same powder, but they are close enough for comparison.

If Gordon’s Reloading Tool is close to correct, that 12.2 gr IMR 4227 with a 158 gr XTP will give 1046 fps at 20662 psi from a 5” barrel. That’s just a computer model though, but that’s just a little over +P spec. 12 gr shows to be under 20,000 psi, and still over 1000 fps.

This is old data from the 80s, so use at your own risk.
Click to expand...
4227 is very mild and loads up and down the ladder very well. My only complaint is the amount of unburnt powder. Even at max 357 loads there are still chunks.
 
AJC1 said:
4227 is very mild and loads up and down the ladder very well. My only complaint is the amount of unburnt powder. Even at max 357 loads there are still chunks.
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Yeah, ditto. In a rifle or carbine it's a good match, especially for a very long bullet in a short-throw lifter. It doesn't need a lot of case, it needs a lot of barrel, and a good starting spark. Standard small pistol primers work, small pistol magnum primers work about the same, small rifle primers add some flame and "seem" to me to work just a smidgeon more gooder.
 
GeoDudeFlorida said:
Yeah, ditto. In a rifle or carbine it's a good match, especially for a very long bullet in a short-throw lifter. It doesn't need a lot of case, it needs a lot of barrel, and a good starting spark. Standard small pistol primers work, small pistol magnum primers work about the same, small rifle primers add some flame and "seem" to me to work just a smidgeon more gooder.
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I loaded up that exact test and it sits ready to be tested.... I forgot the last time I went to the big range...
 
I think the club rules are likely political because they are probably grandfathered in (established almost 100 years ago). They are now next to a shopping center on one side, huge office building on the other, major road on the front, and trailer park community on the rear. So I think they have to cater to regulations on noise and no magnums was a concession. It is what it is.

Yes, I guess I am talking 38-44 range. Good to know at least one of you feel I'm okay going beyond 20K data. Appropriate precautions will be taken to insure the ammo never finds it's way into another gun.

GeoDudeFlorida, nice to hear from a fellow Floridian.
 
Russ57 said:
I think the club rules are likely political because they are probably grandfathered in (established almost 100 years ago). They are now next to a shopping center on one side, huge office building on the other, major road on the front, and trailer park community on the rear. So I think they have to cater to regulations on noise and no magnums was a concession. It is what it is.

Yes, I guess I am talking 38-44 range. Good to know at least one of you feel I'm okay going beyond 20K data. Appropriate precautions will be taken to insure the ammo never finds it's way into another gun.

GeoDudeFlorida, nice to hear from a fellow Floridian.
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There's a bunch of us on here. Some fellers are transplants and some are natives, like me but, once you cross the Georgia line and get a Florida tag for your jalopy, the MSM will immediately label you, "...a Florida man..." if you do something stupid enough to be "newsworthy" so I figger that's good enuf for me, too. ;)

I'm not so critical of your range or your idea. I've pushed .38Spl as hard as they can be and found it depends on the gun. E-/I-frame Colts are plenty strong enough and so are K-/L-frame Smiths. N-frame Smiths are stronger than the primer cup of a .38Spl. Your 686 (L-frame) can handle anything ol' Elmer himself could throw at it. You might shorten case life but, if they gotta ban magnums, then you gotta build hot specials, right?
 
AJC1 said:
4227 is very mild and loads up and down the ladder very well. My only complaint is the amount of unburnt powder. Even at max 357 loads there are still chunks.
Click to expand...
I think 4227 loads down poorly but I stopped my testing because it was just so dang dirty. I found better results up near the top but it wasn't giving me anything I can't get from 2400. For me the 4227 hasn't made sense yet for any loading, too much unburned at the low end and nothing that can't be achieved with something else in the top.

Not directly on topic but I tried some 325 gr swc over a full case of 4227 for a 454 casull, I don't understand why but it shot like 2 feet to the left- consistently at 10 yard. I've never seen this before. I shot a cylinder of the same bullet over h110 and it was on the mark, went back to the 4227 loads and it was way way left. This doesn't make sense but handloads get goofy sometimes. That was with a fellow forum member working as RO and I've shot with him before and assured him I'm really not that bad of a shot! It was just weird.

357 magnum loves 2400. Up and down however you load it, I've had the absolute best results with it and it's my go to. Hopefully one day I figure a use for 4227 but as it is I kind of just hate the stuff.
 
I'm not going to give you any advice. But I'll tell you what I'd do.

I begin with starting loads for .357 magnum data using .38 special brass, and work my way up until I felt like it was getting close to where I wanted to be. I'd keep velocities below .357 magnum average by 50-100fps.

But I have no idea what you should do.
 
Just remember that a fairly small change in case volume can cause big changes in pressure (depending on powder). I believe if it were me and I was intent upon creating a .38 Magnum, I’d start my work up around the top end of 38 Special +P with a slow pistol powder and work toward minimum .357 Mag values. Some types of .38 Special brass are weaker than others and your brass will wear out quickly at those pressures.

Be careful and work cautiously, especially after you pass the midpoint between .38 and .357. You can make some really good powerful loads in .38 Special cases that are safe in .357 Mag guns, but you can also make some that can be dangerous.
 
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