How far is too far for self-defense?

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Drizzt

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How far is too far for self-defense?
By Erin Hemme Froslie, The Forum
Published Wednesday, September 21, 2005

Kenneth Holicky woke up to the sound of glass shattering early Saturday morning in the South Dakota lodge where he lives.

Because he was afraid, the owner of Circle K Resort on Lake Traverse grabbed his shotgun before stepping outside his bedroom, said the county’s sheriff.

There Holicky saw the silhouette of a person trying to enter the attached bar. He pointed the shotgun at the person and pulled the trigger.

By the time the sun came up, two teenagers had been taken to area hospitals with gunshot wounds.

The case begs the question: When is it appropriate for homeowners to take matters into their own hands?

“There’s a strong feeling in America that your home ought to be safe and you ought to be able to do anything necessary to keep it safe,” said Joseph Olson, a professor at Hamline University School of Law in St. Paul.

While state laws vary, most allow a homeowner to use deadly force against an intruder if there is an imminent threat of death or injury, Olson said.

North Dakota and Minnesota fall into this category.

About 40 percent of states allow homeowners to use deadly force in certain kinds of property crimes, he said.

According to South Dakota law, a person may use force for self-defense or to protect property, as long as that force isn’t more than necessary.

Because of these state laws, “defense of dwelling” cases rarely go to trial, he said.

“Every member of the county grand jury will live in a dwelling. If it goes to trial, every member of the jury will live in a dwelling,” Olson said. “You just can’t win them.”

The two boys, ages 14 and 15, likely will face several charges, including burglary and possession of stolen property, said Roberts County (S.D.) Sheriff Rick Moen.

Holicky probably won’t be charged, Moen said.

“(The teens) are the suspects, not the victims here,” Moen said.

The case is still under investigation, and many details are still unknown.

It’s these details that make a difference in whether a shooting like the one in South Dakota is justified, said Kevin Thompson of North Dakota State University’s criminal justice department.

For example, if the teenagers were running away when they were shot, it would be more difficult to claim self-defense. The age of the intruders shouldn’t make a difference, he said.

“There may be outrage in the community if someone were to face charges for defending their property and self,” he said.

Moen, the Roberts County sheriff, said Holicky couldn’t tell how old the suspects were because it was too dark.

“He is very shaken up about the whole ordeal,” Moen wrote in a statement to media.

When Holicky first pulled the trigger, the gun didn’t fire because the chamber was empty. The resort owner went to his bedroom to add two shells to the gun. By the time he returned to the bar, at least one person was inside.

Holicky fired two shots inside the lodge, which is also his home, Moen said. The suspects left, but later arrived at the Sisseton hospital with gunshot wounds.

One boy was flown to MeritCare Hospital in Fargo.

The South Dakota county shares a border with Minnesota and North Dakota.

The teens’ names are not being released because they are juveniles. Moen didn’t know how badly they were injured.

While police investigated the crime, they discovered the teenagers were possibly involved in two other break-ins earlier that morning.

Roberts County State’s Attorney Kay Nikolas declined to comment on the case, saying it was still under investigation.

Nobody answered calls made to Holicky’s residence and business Monday and Tuesday.

Moen said he doesn’t encourage people to take matters of the law into their own hands. But he understands why they do it.

“I tell them, they have the right to defend their property and their life,” he said. “I’m sure I’ll get in trouble for that, but that’s the way I feel.”

http://www.in-forum.com/articles/index.cfm?id=103582&section=news

You know that rule about always treating a firearm as though it's loaded? Well, if you're planning on using it to defend yourself, it dang well better be loaded.... What I can't figure out is, did the kids see him come out, try to fire and then wait for him to load some shells and come back?
 
This thread kind of reminds me of an urban legend about a witness to a murder's being questioned about his night vision. In response to the defense lawyer's question, "How far can you see at night," the witness answered, "How far is the moon?"

If I ever have to defend myself, I won't necessarily be the one determining the distance. If it happens to be @ 100 yds., then so be it; I'll take my chances with a few shots downrange.
 
When there is no fear of loss of life of injury, or at least here in CA, it is that way. Yep, someone can come into my house, pick up my TV and walk out the door with it, but other than calling the cops, I can't do squat about it.
 
When there is no fear of loss of life of injury, or at least here in CA, it is that way. Yep, someone can come into my house, pick up my TV and walk out the door with it, but other than calling the cops, I can't do squat about it.

I would counter that with the reasonable and prudent assumption that if anyone is breaking into your house, and you are home, there is an articulable fear of loss of life or injury.
 
Moen said he doesn’t encourage people to take matters of the law into their own hands. But he understands why they do it.
He wasn't taking matters of the law into his own hands. He was taking defense of his property into his own hands. Why he did it should be obvious - they were the only hands there to do anything about it.
 
I dont think the person will be charged or should be. I personally would have a problem with valuing my property more than anothers life. If my life or anothers is in danger then there is no question though. Hard to tell in this situation which it was.
 
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When there is no fear of loss of life of injury, or at least here in CA, it is that way. Yep, someone can come into my house, pick up my TV and walk out the door with it, but other than calling the cops, I can't do squat about it.


I would counter that with the reasonable and prudent assumption that if anyone is breaking into your house, and you are home, there is an articulable fear of loss of life or injury.

Agreed. When someone is breaking into your house, are you going to take the time to ask if they are 1) just stealing property, 2) just going to rape everyone, 3) just wanted to see how you decorate?

If someone gains forcible entry, you must assume a threat to life. In the example you describe, how do you know that the instant the assailant picks up the TV that he/she won't hurl it at you? I'd shoot, stab, or beat first and ask questions later.
 
I'd shoot, stab, or beat first and ask questions later.
Do this in CA and chances are your friends and family will get to see you on visiting day, especially in LA, San Diego, San Jose and San Francisco areas.

Other counties may be a little more fair.
 
Desertdog: Just for the sake of convenience, let's limit out discussion to cases in the U.S. ;)
 
While state laws vary, most allow a homeowner to use deadly force against an intruder if there is an imminent threat of death or injury, Olson said.
It is a crying shame that he couldn't say "all."


I personally would have a problem with valuing my property more than anothers life.
Our collective societal problem is that young thugs like these don't value their own life more than another's property. More cases like this and they may start to re-think the equation.
 
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While state laws vary, most allow a homeowner to use deadly force against an intruder if there is an imminent threat of death or injury, Olson said.

Actually, while technically true, that is an extremely misleading statement. It would further clarity and accuracy much more to state:

"While state laws vary, almost all allow ANY person, in a home or not, to use deadly force against ANY aggressor if there is an imminent and reasonable threat of violence which could result in death or serious bodily injury to one's self, or to a close family member."

Furthermore, inside one's HOME, while state laws vary, MANY states (those with 'Make My Day' laws) allow a homeowner to use deadly force if he is experiencing ANY actual (subjective; not necessarily reasonable) fear of ANY bodily harm, even if not serious bodily injury, AND the threat need not be imminent."

You see, three requirements for the use of deadly force are shed when one goes from outside the home to inside the home in a "make my day" state, such as mine:

-the percieved threat of harm need not be imminent
-the percieved threat of harm need not be reasonable (can be actual subjective even if another reasonable person would not fear the harm)
-the perceived threatened harm need not be that of "death or serious bodily injury". It need only be perceived threat of ANY bodily injury, even if slight.

Now if you come out and state "I feared no bodily injury whatsoever; I was only protecting my property", then you will be charged with battery (or murder, if the intruder dies), even in your home in a make my day state. You must actually fear that SOME bodily injury could come to you from the intruder. Which, if you state that you did fear this possibly, there's no way the DA can prove otherwise beyond a reasonable doubt. This is as it should be, IMO.
 
In AZ there is a presumption of a threat of death or great bodily harm when a person intrudes on your home. IOW, if someone breaks in the state automatically assumes you were in reasonable fear for your life/limbs and therefore any force used to repel/stop the invaders is justifiable.
 
I personally would have a problem with valuing my property more than anothers life.

It isn't a question of property, IMO. If someone breaks into a house while people are in it, what can you expect from that person but violence? What are they going to do if you don't want to part with your stuff, ask nicely? A hot robbery can't be commited without threat of force.
 
It was adressed yesterday in Strategies and Tactics
The punks were in comission of a felony, should be enough anyway.
As long as the homeowner was afeared and the idjits were in the act, hey alls fair in love and war even at 500 yards.

If their parents hadn't got the message to them by age 15 tough.
Do you want them on the streets breeding more criminals?
Old enough to breed old enough to get naturally selected.
Think of it as evolution in action.



I sent Sheriff Moen a supporting letter myself. We need to back govt. officials who do and say the right things.


Sam
 
My house, my rules.

Rule #1 Do not enter unless invited.
Rule #2 No stealing.

Additional rules subject to change at any time.

All rules will be enforced.

...any questions? :evil:
 
Unless you take the time to converse with the intruder(s) and find out what their intentions are, you have no idea if they have a concealed weapon and are prepared to use it over a tv set.

So who's life is more valuable, Yours(family) or theirs?
Material goods don't enter into it. Once they breach your property you have no idea what they intend to do.

For those that live in those do not defend yourself states, I would get a crappy knife from a yard sale or swap shop and have it handy to apply to the dead intruders hand.
 
You can't torture someone who broke into your house to find out where their friends and family are located so that you can go over to their house and slap their Mama for not raising them right. That's too far.

Other than that, I'm okay with it.
 
Feed the hogs...

You wrote: "For those that live in those do not defend yourself states, I would get a crappy knife from a yard sale or swap shop and have it handy to apply to the dead intruders hand."

May as well get the biggest, strongest, sharpest, and heaviest Chinese cleaver you can buy. Works well for chopping food and other things...

"I feared for my life, so I grabbed a knife from the kitchen..." Most states still allow people to own cooking knives. ;) It will cut a bird in half with one stroke.

I'm proud to say I know professor Joe from Hamline, who was quoted above. He is very nice man who has done a lot for us in Minnesota.

Has anyone, anywhere ever suffered a forced home entry without being scared witless? Probably not. The reason is because we fear for our safety. If a criminal were to write us a letter asking for our television set, we would likely not be afraid. A break-in is an automatic self-defense case as far as I am concerned.

~Ichiro
 
Do this in CA and chances are your friends and family will get to see you on visiting day, especially in LA, San Diego, San Jose and San Francisco areas.

Other counties may be a little more fair.

California's castle doctrine is pretty well established. If you're in the home, you can do what you have to.

The California laws are set up to presume that the simple act of illegal entry into your home while you are present provides you with reasonable fear of death or serious injury. You are justified to shoot in defense. It will be up to the DA to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that you had no such fear.
 
as mentioned earlier, this is in s&t.

the property owner was not charged - it would've caused mass rioting in this state if he had been.

the kids are s'posed to recover, though one got himself in pretty rough shape and was aired to n. dakota...
 
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