How fast???

[PzGren]

Lots of little factors enter the picture; age, holster design, how well the belt and holster fit together, the snugness of the belt, the fit of the weapon to the individual's hand, and familiarity with the whole rig.

I agree and want to add : don't forget clothing style. Here in South Florida, it is quite easy to pull a shirt up and draw. Another point is practice, I used to be very competitive in sports ( several decades ago), practice will eventually work.

I am practicing the draw from concealment since several years with the help of computer timers, RUReady and the one on Matt Burkett's site.

I am 48 and can still draw from (light!) concealment around 1 second - as long as I practice daily. Any break I take and the time goes bad rapidly and it takes a while to get back.

 

[Robert Hairless]

Thanks, Tallpine. That's not what I was asking though. I can probably figure out by myself how to violate lots of laws if I put my mind to it and come up with reasons for doing it. What I was asking was whether the advice to hold a drawn gun at one's side in anticipation of an attack was equally legal for law enforcement officers on duty and CWP holders. I think it's a good idea to know the law but I might be wrong.

 

[ZeSpectre]

I knew a guy who was so fast he kept drawing, firing, and re-holstering before the bullet had left the barrel. After about the third time he shot himself in the leg he changed to a SAA just to slow himself down. It really didnt work so he had to switch to an unloaded blackpowder pistol so he was forced to take the time and load it after drawing.

 

[Erik]

Robert,
What you need to know is what the applicable laws are where you're carrying.

That said, the generic answer is that "LEOs and non-LEOs are generally not held to the same standards when it comes to drawing, displaying, or pointing weapons."

 

[insidious_calm]

What I was asking was whether the advice to hold a drawn gun at one's side in anticipation of an attack was equally legal for law enforcement officers on duty and CWP holders. I think it's a good idea to know the law but I might be wrong.

I think the answer to both whether or not that is wise or legal is that it depends entirely on the circumstances. If you are sitting behind the counter in your business, then yes, by all means have gun in hand. I think that doing so would be foolish (legally and tactically) on the street. As an instructor I advocate going to the gun early, at the first presentation of a credible threat to your life and limb, so it's not as if I'm shy on drawing. Standing around with gun 'seriptitiously' in hand seems very 'un-tactical' though. One of my cardinal rules is that if you have drawn your gun you'd better be a) shooting, b) seeking cover or behind cover, or c) both a & b. Cops have a different mission entirely. CCing means your mission is to survive. Unless you're guarding someone or something standing around with gun in hand seems inviting a confrontation that you arguably could have escaped.


I.C.

 

[Stretchman]

Navy Seals have a saying.

"Fast is slow, and slow is smooth."

Work on getting the draw smoother, and then you can pick up speed. when I trained for security, for the G quals, we had to draw, fire 2, reholster, etc, ad nauseum. But the weapon was carried open. A little easier.

There are 2 ways to draw from concealment. One is to use the strong side hand to sweep the cover garment, and get the weapon. The other is to sweep the garment with the weak side hand while drawing the weapon. depending on the garment, either or can work.

When drawing from an IWB holster, you want to come vertical until you are certain that the weapon is clear of anything that it may snag on. Practice getting it out of the holster and coming straight up until you cannot lift it any higher. Then come with both hands together and basically push the weapon out toward the target. More practice means better draw. Do not put your finger on the trigger until ready to fire. Do 10 reps a day, making sure that the movement is smooth. Don't go for speed until you can do it with your eyes closed. When you open them, the weapon should be pointing COM on the target without having to use the sights. Again, practice makes for perfect.

When you get ok with that, you can try and attempt to do the side step by moving one foot. If you ever played a first person shooter you will know why. You have to move, or you will probably get shot. Also, you have to think of the target as being in 3d instead of 2d. Sometimes, aiming for COM will cause you to miss.

IF you can master all of that, then speed will become second nature. Believe me, I talk alot more about than I do it anymore.

 

[Flak_Jakett]

"Fast is slow, and slow is smooth."

In the army our saying was smooth is fast and fast is smooth. Perhaps that was what you meant to say. Or perhaps the navy has it wrong again I've heard it said fast is smooth and smooth is fast, but that was a pararescue guy from the airforce who we said was as smart as a box of rocks.
I've heard the saying said many different ways... I wonder which one was the original?

My draw speed averages 2.5-3 seconds. I do have to say though, that concetrating on the speed of your draw is the last thing you should be thinking about in a situation when you need to draw. Your draw should be smooth, second nature, and without any extra unnecessary movement. This would be smooth and indeed fast enough. Your mind should be thinking about what you should be doing next. Which position gives you the best cover to fire from, exit strategies, people near or behind your soon to be target... etc. etc. etc.

I could probably draw my pistol in about 1 second, but my first shot would hit the corner mime and the gun would clatter smoothly into the storm drain after I lost my grip.

My tomb stone would say.... "Damn he was fast!!!"

And the mime's would say... "Even in death he uttered n'ery a word."

 

[JMusic]

I consider speed of draw one of the least benificial skill sets in SD. I have been completely surprised just twice in my lifetime. Both draws were done without thought and both would have been quick enough to get the first shot in. I have held a gun on hundreds of people. All but the two described above were from a hidden position with gun in hand. What is more important is movement and anticipation or awarreness.

The issue of having your gun in hand depends on the circumstances of the moment as to its legality. What would be illegal about hidding the gun behind your thigh as you walk by a group of suspicious people? What is illegal about having your hand on your firearm in your pocket? If done covertly and with common sense you will not get introuble being proactive. Learn to hide your weapon.

Jim

 

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

I think the Saying is " Fast is smooth and smooth is slow " meaning go slowly until you are smooth and then gradually increase speed !!

 

[bones42]

Being aware that things are going south could keep you from racing a BG to the first shot. Read some of the after action analysis of armed conflicts. Mr. Ayoob has written extensively on it. If you can see a situation developing you will already be prepared to deal.

This mindset may partially be a product of the 30 minutes or so it takes me to draw from my IWB holster. I'm a heavyweight and carry in an IWB holster that rides nice and deep for good concealment. I wouldn't be able to get the drop on your grandmother with that set up. I practice my presentation and it is smooth but I wouldn't have a chance trying to outdraw someone or draw upon someone who is already pointing a weapon.

 

[brownie0486]

How fast can you present from concealed?

IWB or OWB from under an untucked T shirt, strong side with my daily carry g17/g19, cold first attempt is between 1.17 and 1.23 seconds on the timer with COM hits out to 12 feet.

I think this is the top end. I'd bet most people will fall far under this time. My trainer (former undercover & Entry Team) could put 2 shots into COM from concealed in 1.5 seconds and we are all still in awe.

It will take some serious practice to get to the time of under 1.5 seconds to the first shot from concealed, unless it is pocket carry and you have your hand on the gun to begin with.

I practice to increase the speed of my draw. I try to maintain a high state of situational awareness to make a fast draw irrelevant.

Lets look at this one for a minute--you are in a crowd carrying your normal full/medium size handgun which would be IWB/OWB, not pocket carrying. Your awareness skills tell you that you might have to draw if the situation goes south in the next few seconds.

You can't sereptitiously draw from your carry position of IWB/OWB as people in the crowd will see you do so and it might alert the potential BG/s, but you are on alert and ready to have to defend yourself, someone else or perhaps a bunch of people [ lets say the whole of the people around you in general ].

When and if it becomes go time, your draw speed to first shots will be as important as the observations skills you had which led you to see something that potentially needed to be addressed with lethal force to begin with.

In this scenario and hundreds of others that could arise on the streets which support the same scenario [ you can't draw premeptively without attracting a lot of peoples attention ] your draw speed becomes very important to get the gun into operations when it's go time.

If you feel your SHTF radar go off, get the gun out and ready in a safe direction.

See above

There will be times when you are startled like Jim mentioned, and he still had the wherewithal to be able to get the gun on them before they could cause him major problems. He was able to do that because he has good draw speed, it's unconscious thought as he mentioned. There is a big key a lot of people miss----unconsciously being able to access your firearm when it needs to be in your hand. I've seen Jim shoot, and draw, and it's not a conscious thought because he is one with his choice of handguns from years of having one in his hand.

I also have good situational skills from working the streets for 25+ years both in uniform and as a private dick on my own in some of the worst areas of the inner cities. If you aren't paying attention to where you are, whats going on around you, whose around you, how many there are, looking up often [ especially in the projects or alleys ] what obstacles can be hiding someone or multiples, it's not a matter of if it will happen but when.

In those times I was in these areas, I had a gun in my hand while I walked into these scenarios, usually a model 36 bobbed hammer J frame or model 49 bodyguard with hip grip appendix carry. It looked like I had my thumb hooked on my belt, and wasn't out of place at all.

When I made traffic stops, I had my hand off hand on the same j frame when I approached vehicles. An old time chief of police who was a good friend of mine recommended that to me when I got on the dept, and I followed his suggestions, and not one person I approached at the car's knew I had a gun on them. Admins be damned.

I practice to be as fast as I can from the draw, and thats with sure as sh*t COM hits with that speed. I don't work the streets any more like that, I'm just a joe blow who minds his own business, knows how to use forethought in preparation for trouble and stays situationally aware from years of having to or not surviving some of the areas I had to work or not make a living.

I carry IWB or OWB now, and though I'm aware of whats going on, I may not be able to get the gun in hand without tipping that hand to others, so I practice for every type of scenario, like the one I gave earlier.

Being fast from the holster to first shots with COM hits IS important to me. I may need it one day, and if I do, I have a better chance of surviving than those who don't think they need to practice a fast draw from concealed.

Practice for every inevitability or suffer when that particular scenario presents itself and you aren't prepared as welll as you could be. Situational awareness is fine, but thinking you'll see it in time and then always be able to covertly get the gun in hand before you have to use it in the real world is "California Dreaming".

Brownie

 

[Erik]

Do not forget that you've got to add your reaction time to your draw time with viable COM hits to solve the "how fast am I?" equation.

 

[Claude Clay]

meef my shadow is slower than yours..............lol

 

[Flak_Jakett]

I think the Saying is " Fast is smooth and smooth is slow " meaning go slowly until you are smooth and then gradually increase speed !!

The saying has been said many many different ways and I have heard them all. They all basically mean the same thing.

You practice being smooth not being fast. Once you are smooth the action seems natural and thus when you are doing the action smoothly you are doing it naturally fast. Once you put in enough repitition to commit the action to muscle memory and maintain them to save it in your memory, it will come as fast and natural as breathing.

 

[PzGren]

Do not forget that you've got to add your reaction time to your draw time with viable COM hits to solve the "how fast am I?" equation.

Right, the reaction time is a large part of the total time! However, this is the factor that can be cut the easiest with practice.
Increasing the actual speed of the draw is based on physical characteristics where an improvement is usually slower.
Just like a sprinter who gets a good start, a reduced reaction time, will have a big effect on the draw time - and the self-confidence.

 

[frayluisfan]

How does the saying go?

Fast is smooth doesn't make sense to me. The only sequence that helps me remember to do it right is: "Slow is smooth and smooth is fast." The point, I think, is that if you try to go fast, you screw up. In contrast, when you slow down, you go smoothly (i.e., you're less likely to fumble and stumble), and thus you go fast. Sounds paradoxical, but same idea holds true in other contexts.

For example, if you try to swing a baseball/softball bat as hard as you possibly can, you actually have a slightly slower swing than if you aim for about 3/4 of maximum. The muscles don't perform smoothly when you grit your teeth and swing as hard as possible; they get in each other's way, if you know what I mean. Same thing with fielding and throwing. A lot more screw ups (getting the ball out of the mitt, and throwing) happen when fielders try to go fast and throw the ball as hard as possible.

How does all this apply here? If I try to yank that weapon out as fast as I can, I'm much more likely to snag on something (speaking here of my experience only). If I consciously slow down, I screw up less and end up getting on target quicker than when I'm in speed mode. So slow is smooth and smooth is fast. At least that's how I understand it.

 

[Erik]

Correct.

"Slow is smooth and smooth is fast" is the saying.

Break it down, it makes sense.

 

[JMusic]

I'll probably dick this all up but I'm gonna make an attempt at what you should strive to become. Small game hunters birds, rabbits, go through what is known as the startle affect. Anyone who has hunted and jumped either a bird or a rabbit has went through this process. First thing that happens is you become all thumbs. The game is gone before you even get your safety off on your shotgun. After some of these occurances you start to become immune to the startle responce you first had. Now you are capable of shouldering the shotgun and releasing the safety. You still can't hit much but you are looking good. Now for the next step. You can unconsciousy shoulder the weapon and release the safety but you still can't hit anything. Now you consciously try to aim and lead. After some time you "through repetition" are able to hit some game. You can calculate the leads and you are starting to anticipate "where and how" the game is going to react. You are still consciously aiming the gun but you no longer shoulder or take the weapon off of safe consciously.

The third phase you start to shoot without consciously aiming. All your concerned with now is, is it time for me to shoot or not,is it a safe shoot? You will find when you are at this point and the game was not for you to shoot at you put the safety back on and you unshoulder the weapon. That just happened from an outside stimuli be it a rabbit tearing through the brush or a bird cackling and flaping its wings. You are now ready for phase four. At this point you decide shoot or don't shoot safety wise but you also decide to let the game gain some distance so you have something left to eat. That is where you have gained the speed. That is where you want to be on the street. Ready to shoot but waiting to see if it is a good shoot.

Jim

 

[Flak_Jakett]

Many many sayinga all mean the same thing. YOu know like the saying there a many ways to skin a raccoon...

 

[bill2]

when I was skydiving

my instructor was talking about pulling the cord to open my chute and he said "slow is smooth and smooth is fast" meaning practice it slowly and as you reached and pulled the cord time after time you became faster.

One more thing - I just got back from the Front Sight 4 day pistol course and part of the final skills test you have to draw from concealment and put two bullets in the target at 3 meters in 1.5 seconds. it's doable.

 

[mavracer]

Hey, I'm so damn fast that my shadow only catches up with me on the average about .5 second after I've put a hole in the target.

Well my draw is so fast it cant be seen with the naked eye.in all seriousness this is one reason I pocket carry then I can have gun in hand without brandishing.

 

[meef]

in all seriousness this is one reason I pocket carry then I can have gun in hand without brandishing.

I too may have played pocket pool on occasion, but I never considered boasting about it on an internet forum before.

 

[meef]

in all seriousness this is one reason I pocket carry then I can have gun in hand without brandishing.

I too may have played pocket pool on occasion, but I never considered boasting about it on an internet forum before.

 

[sm]

, Byron.
Now you've gone and messed around, introducing the surreptitious draw into the conversation.

Hey, this is even a greater surprise with a shotgun.
Bone Stock, 28" barrel and everything.

"That ain't a handgun??"
"No, this is a SX1, loaded with slugs- now drop the gun and hit the deck NOW!".

<dial phone>*ring ring*
"Hi Police Lady, I founded something you might be interested in..."

--

I have had lessons in what is now called the Tueller Drill since I was little, handguns , shotguns and rifles.
Low 8 on a Skeet field my /our shotgun Tueller Drill .
Low Incomers set to do so on a 5 stand I also use for Tueller Drills with a shotgun.
I want the clay aimed for my nose...my personal druther, I often ask for doubles...

Then they gave this drill the name "Tueller Drill".

--
Timer.
How raised and how Mentored mind you.
We did not do Timers.
Part of never be a programmed shooter.
A gunshot, a scream, me being shot (or at) with a wax/plastic bullet, something being hit ...
Rope tied to me and being "jerked" , either out the way, or to replicate being "pushed" out of the way.

Ingrain Life on the streets does not have a "go" and "stop" signal device.

Various ways to show this to students. One is having a student at the back of the shooter. "GO!" , one at back, runs away from shooter, shooter draws and upon the shot, runner stops.

Take note on the distance traveled, that is the distance if instead of running away, it was running toward shooter.

No timer, no measurements...visual.

--

I have been timed, I was today. Lesson was my handgun on car seat, (bad area of town ...whatever) and BG pops up at passenger window with gun.
0.7 from dropping hand from steering wheel to first shot through passenger window into target. I hit the "nose".
I "pointed" not "aimed".

--

Last time I was timed.
I was spending a lot of time shooting, and specifically a Kel-Tec P-11 for Testing and Eval for a company.
IWB , High Noon forward cant, holster, 4:30, no cover garment.
Best time was 0.8.
I was in a really freaky , scary "Zen zone".
I was consistent in 1.00 times
1911, Gov't Model, bone stock, 1.25 -ish.

Right now, I couldn't do this. I am out of practice on "from holster" , "with a holster" and other things.

Honest, I have been spending a lot of time dealing with matters with NO gun, instead avoid, evade, use what is handy.
Areas with NO CCW, metal detectors and such "sterile areas"

Situations with guns are - one is kicked to me, I take one off a downed Security Person , LEO , or get the BGs gun.
No holster, so waistband, back pocket, whatever to "survive this situation".
My default is to evade.

Exit this No CCW and a Lady has her gun and mine. Maybe in her purse, in a holster or in a gift bag and "Hi Honey, I got you a surprise" when actually it is my gun and we make it back to parking area.

Life on the street stuff, I and other have to contend with.
I was never Mentored to be a "programmed shooter".
I do not want to be a programmed shooter.
I just want to avoid, evade and survive, the actual times don't mean anything to me.

Be the firstest with the mostest - Bedford Forrest.

 

[mavracer]

I too may have played pocket pool on occasion, but I never considered boasting about it on an internet forum before.

ever go to an away game.