ROF--How fast is too fast for barrels?

[BamBam-31]

I understand that firing too many shots too quickly will, in addition to burning up a lot of $$, burn out a barrel. My question is, how fast is too fast?

The answer's probably different for different barrel weights, so what's ballpark for, say, a Mini-14, a M1A, and a Rem 700 PSS? I let my friend shoot my PSS, and he squeezed off 60 rounds as quickly as he possibly could. I'm wondering if the barrel got burnt.

 

[12-34hom]

When your hot your hot..

I'll normally allow 2 to 3 minutes betwwen each shot while on a session shooting for groups.

Cold bore shots are the best indacation of how accurate your rifle performs on each outing.

I NEVER take more than 40 rounds at a time to the range. I want quality time. Sight focus, breathing, just getting into that zone where i FEEL each shot into the target.

I spend alot of time prepping my brass - i weigh EACH powder charge - seat the primers just so - OAL is critical. So going to the range and blasting away ain't my style.

Shooting a fine varmint rifle should be a relaxing and rewarding experiance...

You're comment on your buddy firing off 60 rounds as fast as he could, does not promote barrel life. but as far as burning your barrel, i doubt it.

The way you CLEAN your rifles barrel has alot more to do with it's longevitey than other factors all being considered.

12-34hom.

 

[Archie]

Good news and bad news.

The bad news is that shooting even a bolt gun rapid fire will damage the barrel.

Rapid fire hurts a barrel when the interior temperature of the bore can't cool quickly enough, and the blast from the burning powder acts like a cutting torch.

The late Elmer Keith talks about using two rifles in National Match competition, one for slow fire and one for rapid fire. The rapid fire guns would show erosion by the end of the season. (Don't know how many matches and practise sessions that entailed.)

The good news is the damage is limited to the area just in front of the chamber. This is where the rifling begins, the leade. More good news is that to repair it, one simply sets the barrel back a bit and re-chambers.
Okay, so the gunsmith gets to make a little money.

 

[uglymofo]

how long between shots

The most common advice I've heard is, "if you can't hold the barrel with your bare hand, it's too hot to shoot".

I allow 75-90 seconds between shots, depending on the weather, and that's 'pushing' it a little. I use the time in between to dry fire (even with an M1A). After four 5-shot groups, I'll stop and give it and myself a break.

I do know of a case (firsthand) where a Springfield NM M1a had its' barrel burned out. One holiday, our club had a public shoot, and volunteers were asked to bring their weapons out for the public to shoot. One man couldn't make it, but he loaned his rifle to the club. A range officer was placed in charge of the rifle. Three guys got hold of the M1A, and not knowing any better, they fired off what is guessed as 220 rounds in about 15 minutes. The range officer was strictly a trap shooter, and only worried about gun safety; he didn't know there should be a 'lag time' between shots. (All four by consensus decided to stop when they noticed the barrel glowing. ) That rifle never again shot as well as it did before the public shoot; it went from a sub-MOA gun to 2 1/2MOA.

 

[3 gun]

From FM 23-8. Rates of Fire (these can be maintained without danger to the firer, or damage to the weapon.)

Semiautomatic (rounds per minute)
1 minute 40 rounds
2.................40
5.................30
10...............20
15...............20
20...............20
30(or more)..15

This applies to USGI M-14 rifles. I would guess it would also cover M1a rifles built with USGI parts. Of couse this doesn't apply to a match rifle.

 

[M67]

One of the programs I shoot with my Mauser based target rifle includes a 10 round string in 75 seconds. That's not really "rapid" but it is fast enough to make the barrel very uncomfortable to touch. I've never worn out a barrel, but that just means that I don't shoot as much as I ought to. Particularly on a match rifle, changing barrels every now and then is just like changing tyres on a car as they wear out. Isn't it?

Cost? The several thousand rounds you need to shoot to wear out a barrel will cost a lot more than the new barrel...

Slightly off topic maybe, but if I remember my military training, the barrel of an MG3 would take one 50 round belt in a continous burst without serious damage, as long as it was allowed to cool before the next string. That's 50 rounds at 1200 rpm. In an emergency those barrels were supposed to take 200 rounds but that would wear out the crome lining and ruin the barrel - and I certainly wouldn't try to change it without using the asbestos mitten

 

[BamBam-31]

Thanks for the great replies, guys.

I guess I myself am shooting WAY too fast, then. I usually shoot about 100 rounds through my M1A in about two hours at the range. That's including line breaks, so I'm probably shooting at least twice as fast as I ought to. Gotta....slow....down....

I'm glad there are sites like THR (and formerly TFL) where guys share their knowledge and experience with newbies like me.

 

[3 gun]

Depends on if you're hitting what you're shooting at. As the table from FM 23-8 on the M-14 shows, 100 rounds of ammo could be fired thru your rifle in 5 minutes or less without damage to the rifle. Can you make hits that fast?

 

[Oleg Volk]

Depends on the ammo: cordite 303 heats the rifle faster than modern 303. Bolt actions heat up faster than autoloaders, as the casing has more time to transfer heat to the barrel before it is ejected.

 

[cratz2]

Yeah, it really varies a lot from rifle to rifle and load to load. Shooting the fairly lightly loaded 95 Gr .243 loads my buddy loads for me in my heavy barrel Winchester Coyote, if I shoot 1 round every 30 seconds for 20 rounds, the barrel doesn't really get beyond warm. Shooting the hot-ish 117 Gr .25-06s he builds for me in the sporter weight Ruger, 1 round every minute for 5 minutes will get the barrel pretty hot. I'm the kind of guy that will line up the shot, breathe two or three times until it's right, take the shot, set there for a few seconds, look at the shot, go get the case. Feel if it feels any warmer than the others.

I'm not a blasting kinda guy. Even when shooting a friends MAK90 using his ammo, I just can't really bring myself to pound out a bunch of rounds. On the other hand, he will load up the two drums and shoot as fast as he can pull the trigger. Still as (in)accurate as it ever was.

 

[BamBam-31]

3 gun, I TOTALLY misread your table. I quickly glanced down at the last line and read 15 shots per 30 min., or 60 shots per two hours. That it reads 450 shots per 30 min. totally blows my mind, so much so I didn't understand it.

I was also going by the one shot per 90 seconds rule of thumb, so if I'm at the range two hours, I'm actually shooting about 90 minutes with the line breaks. That means 60 shots or so per two hour outing.

Also, I've never noticed any loss in accuracy due to barrel heat with any rifle other than my Mini-14. That one strings vertically once it heats up, and it heats up rather quickly.

Forgive my ignorance, but what exactly is the FM 23-8? Is it a GI M-14 manual?

 

[Byron Quick]

That rifle never again shot as well as it did before the public shoot; it went from a sub-MOA gun to 2 1/2MOA.

Sounds like it needs to be rebarrelled. Man, that would hurt my heart.

As the table from FM 23-8 on the M-14 shows, 100 rounds of ammo could be fired thru your rifle in 5 minutes or less without damage to the rifle. Can you make hits that fast?

Yes, I can. In fact, that's not pushing the edge of my envelope...one shot every three seconds? I'll go for one every 2.5 seconds-on paper. Now, I must admit that I have no idea of my actual rate of aimed fire under real pressure...especially if the targets are shooting back.

 

[DrDremel]

Rate of fire depends on the rifle. If it is a match rifle, or sniper rifle, the barrel should be kept as cool as possible, meaning that you don’t want it to get hot to the touch. Keep in mind that the barrel on a rifle is the wear item on any rifle.
Most match rifle barrels loose their match accuracy before 7000 rounds, and usually get replaced around 5000 rounds. The numbers change slightly depending on the caliber. Usually the hotter or higher velocity the round, the quicker it needs to be replaced.
For non-match rifles, barrels can last upward of 30,000 rounds or more before accuracy is unacceptable. I shoot both types of rifles, and even a machinegun or two. 1919A4 Brownings are shot until the rounds start to keyhole
I have a sub-machinegun barrel in 9mm that has 50,000 rounds and still looks quite crisp and is still accurate. That is at 750 rounds a minute with 1000+ rounds fired in one hour. Because the round is not as hot as a rifle round coupled with the fact that the open-bolt functioning keeps the case out of the chamber and lets air cool by passing down the bore, it lasts longer.
Believe it or not just opening the action of a match rifle and letting it cool in the open position will let you fire more rounds per hour without burning the barrel. Barrels are meant to be replaced and if you are a shooter that is worried about burning a barrel out, you need to find a gunsmith to replace your barrel.
As far as how fast I can shoot and still hit, 12 shots a minute is not hard to shoot under 2 inch groups consistently, and better than that with some guns.

 

[3 gun]

Field Manual No. 23-8 dated May 7 1965 covers US Rifle 7.62mm M14 and M14E2 and was in use by GIs at that time. I don't think I'd try the ROF out just for fun, but I have won a steel plate shoot that took 35 shots in 53 seconds. The barrel was very hot! My standard rifle will still shoot sub two inch groups from the bench. It takes a lot more to shoot out a standard mil-spec barrel than most people will believe.

 

[Fatelvis]

I would think a chrome lined GI barrel would take a little more heat, without erosion, than a match, CM barrel, no?