How important is double action for training?

[BBroadside]

I'm thinking about going into revolvers soon. Eventually I'd like to shoot IDPA Enhanced with some sort of 45 (probably the beautiful S&W 625); I'd also like to get a nice medium-caliber snubby.

I suppose I will find that a 22 will pay for itself fairly quickly, even if I train half the time with my other revolver(s). Ideally I'd like one which is most like the others in grip shape, sights, etc. Question: how valuable is it to train with the double-action trigger?

I find most of the cheap .22-caliber revolvers with good reputations are single action (i.e. the Ruger Bearcat - excellent and surprisingly cheap, or the Rough Rider - surprisingly good for the price). If I get one of these am I going to find that the double-action pull of the other revolver is a stumbling block? There is also the greater kick of the centerfire revolver, which is why I'll have to train with it quite a bit.

(I think I got onto this line of thinking by my fascination with the CZ-75 Kadet conversion kit; train with not just the same type of gun, but the same actual frame, with much cheaper ammo. Very appealing.)

 

[bigfatdave]

For self-defense it is essential.
I think Taurus makes DA .22 revolvers, I would recommend training with the lightest one you can find that mimics your SD pistol.

 

[9mmepiphany]

the foundation of wheelgun competition, as well as SD, is the DA trigger stroke...because that's all you're going to use.

if you're serious about becoming a good wheelgunner, i would recommend the S&W 617.

the 617 is built on a K-frame and has the same grip and action as a L-frame (686+)

it's a much smaller step from the L-frame to the N-frame (625), then up from a J-frame...completely different feeling action due to springing

 

[Sam1911]

First of all, from a self-defense and action pistol games standpoint, you might as well have a double-action-only revolver. The single action method is completely irrelevant for that kind of shooting. (Of course, there will be some instance somewhere that will challange that statement, but let it ride.)

So, buying a .22 single-action wheelgun to practice for IDPA will be pointless.

A nice 617 might be awesome, but pricy. You're going to find that training to properly master the long double-action trigger will be a lot more of a challange than learning to control the recoil!

I would suggest that you look at one of the Model 64s that J&G sales (I think, probably CDNN too...) is selling for under $200. That's the stainless version of the famous Model 10 .38 Spc. They come with 4" barrels and I think they are all double-action-only which is great for what you want to do. (If the supply of security company turn-in Model 64s has dried up by the time you read this, any 4" barrel Model 10, 66, or any other .38/.357 will do.)

You can reload .38 Spc. for DARNED cheap, and the loads you need to make up to compete in IDPA will not have much recoil. By the time you've paid $600+ (and probably searched for a long time) for a nice 617 to practice with, you could have bought the M64, had it this week, and loaded a few thousand practice rounds, too!

(You can buy 500 .38 cast lead bullets for under $25, probably get the cases for free or close to it, powder would be cheap and easy to find, and primers...well, they're around. Even if you have to pay the scalper's price of ~$40/1000, you're still at only about $0.10 a shot.)

Plus, you'll have a gun with which you can compete (in SSR) NOW, and will probably fill that role nicely forever.

Might as well start competing in Stock Service Revolver while you're "practicing up" for ESR!

-Sam

 

[Old Fuff]

A new CDNN Sports catalog just came out, and unfortunately no S&W revolvers are shown except for some built on the X-frame (think .500 S&W).

J&G Sales may have some left, but I suspect that they're recent sale probably cleaned them out.

However some may be in the pipeline and found at local dealers. Those who are interested should be out and looking - they won't last forever.

 

[woad_yurt]

Listen to what Sam1911 said above. For $350, you can get everything you need to reload .38 SPL. J&G does have a great deal on DA-only 64s for $200-$250. They're fantastic guns.

If you just want an affordable DA .22 revolver, get an old H&R for $100-$140. That'll help with your DA pull. They'll last you forever, too.

Oh yeah: To answer your question, DA is totally crucial. Whether it's for a competition like you mentioned or for self-defense, you gotta master a DA trigger pull. And, a S&W K-frame, like the above-mentioned 64, is the perfect medium. FYI, the older, pre-war guns do have a nicer pull but they aren't +P rated.

 

[jaydubya]

Reload .38 special!

This is absolutely the cheapest and most effective way to practice. I would do it (did it for years decades ago), but she-who-must-be-obeyed won't let me scatter spent primers over the garage floor anymore. I now do business with www.mastercast.net, a reloading service, and have for about five years and I don't remember how many reloads. Unfortunately, due to the current ammo insanity, Mastercast cannot send you .38 sp reloads unless you send them an equivalent amount of spent brass, same type and number. This will change. Already Mastercast is once again offering 9x19 reloads without requiring spend brass in exchange. Times are loostening.

Oh yeah, double action for revolvers is the way to go when practicing anything except destroying paper at fifty yards, or bowling pins at one hundred yards, and stuff like that there.

Cordially, Jack

 

[The Lone Haranguer]

It seems rather self evident to me. If your "real world" shooting is to be done in DA, you need to practice with DA.

 

[rcmodel]

Forget a Ruger Bearcat for much of anything except plinking.

They are too small & light to mimic a real full-size gun in larger calibers.

Anyway, the only shooting games I know of that uses SA is Cowboy Action Shooting and NRA Bullseye.
But nobody shoots revolvers in NRA Bullseye anymore either.

rc

 

[wnycollector]

I find most of the cheap .22-caliber revolvers with good reputations are single action

Dont overlook H&R/NEF line of DA/SA .22 revolvers. Their stiff (but smooth) DA is a good thing for practice. After shooting a few 550 round bricks DA with my NEF R92 4" revolver, the groups I shot with my S&W 27 and 28 shrank dramatically!

Here is an example if a nice H&R .22 http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=142215845
Or this NEF R92 LNIB...for only $125 with buy it now!
http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=141824742

 

[22-rimfire]

I would get a double action 22 revolver that is close to the same size as your carry piece. But if not, it is hard to beat a Model 17 or 617. The new Smith M63, old M34, or perhaps the 317 for the ultralight. For competion, you will likely be using a larger revolver, hence the M17 or 617 makes a lot of sense. I think the trigger should be as close to your main revolver as possible in terms of feel. That probably means one of the higher end DA revolvers made by Smith or Colt.

 

[BCRider]

Other than perhaps the Model 17, 617 and other K framed S&W .22's all the rest of the .22 DA/SA revolvers seem to have a reputation for a hellishly heavy DA pull. Far harder in fact than for any of the center fire options. There's no point in practicing with a gun if the feel of the trigger pull is totally different.

Personally I support the suggestion to go with a .38Spl in the form of a K frame or L frame .357. Or if you KNOW you'll be shooting the .45 out of the N frame 25 or 625 then go for an old Model 27 or 28. .357 in the big N frame gun. The PERFECT companion to a .45 wheelgun. Although a 19 is just about Nirvana with a bow on it.

 

[BBroadside]

This is exactly why I come to The High Road (the pictures are nice too).

Okay, so all those delightful single-actions are out as a first gun.

You can reload .38 Spc. for DARNED cheap, and the loads you need to make up to compete in IDPA will not have much recoil.

This is something I know little about. You are talking about loading specifically for low recoil, or to save money, or to maximize accuracy? No reason you can't do all three, I guess.
Or, in the other direction, load up a nice +P and/or heavy bullet load to get a little closer to simulating .45-cal. recoil? That would be good if, as is implied above, .38 Special is significantly cheaper to handload than .45 ACP.

(Reloading is a subject I used to think about when I loved in a tiny apartment and couldn't do it. Since I recently bought a house (with a basement!) I suppose I may as well take the plunge.)

I guess my plan now is:
Read up on how you tell if a used wheelgun is burned out. I seem to remember a quick way to check timing, tightness of lockup, etc. I suppose I won't worry about the sights too much.

Look for a cheapy .22, and understand that its (probably) horrendous trigger pull is training, not "misfortune"! I had completely forgotten about the H&Rs so it's good to reminded.

Look for a veteran S&W .38 (whether or not I find a good cheap .22). I doubt I'll shoot .357 but I'll look for those too.

Clean out basement.

Get reloading stuff.

 

[Sam1911]

This is something I know little about. You are talking about loading specifically for low recoil, or to save money, or to maximize accuracy? No reason you can't do all three, I guess.

Actually, the required power level ("power floor") for Stock Service Revolver, the class a .38 Spc. revolver without moon clips would compete in, is a bit higher than almost ANY factory .38 Spc. ammo sold these days. Still a very safe load, but for some reason, only "+P" factory loadings seem to make power floor (and not all of them).

The power floor number for SSR is 125,000. That is simply the velocity in feet per second, times the bullet weight in grains. So, if you load a 125 gr. bullet, you need to get it moving at 1,000 fps. A 158 gr. bullet has to move at 792 fps, etc. So, reloading .38 Spc. is really the only viable option for getting competition legal ammo. Factory stuff is usually just too slow. (Again, unless you buy "+P" ammo and test it over the chrono so you know it's fast enough in your gun.)

You aren't really loading for the most very best-est accuracy. From a practical standpoint, you're loading find the charge weight that will get you an average of maybe 50 fps faster than the minimum velocity you're required to hit with your chosen bullet. And, of course, your gun has to be reliable with that load, but that is much less of a concern with a revolver than an auto. Pretty much any consistent load you come up with will be plenty accurate enough for what you're trying to accomplish with an IDPA gun. A bullseye shooter may want to play with the load to squeeze the last 1/2" out of his groups at 50 yds. For IDPA, that kind of precision is not going to help you in any noticable way. Find a load that meets power floor and your gun seems to like, and go shoot 10,000 of them.

[By the way, ONLY buy lead Round Nose (RN) or Truncated Cone(TC) type bullets. No wadcutters or Semi-Wad-Cutters (SWC). You need a bullet that feeds into the chambers as smoothly as possible because a revolver looses a LOT of time on reloads. Trying to feed 6 bullets into the cylinder at the same time will be frustrating enough without hanging up on a bunch of flats and shoulders like the SWCs will give you.]

Reloading will save you a lot of money if you're going to shoot competitively. Or, said another way, reloading will let you shoot a lot more for the same cost -- thus making you a better shooter.

Or, in the other direction, load up a nice +P and/or heavy bullet load to get a little closer to simulating .45-cal. recoil? That would be good if, as is implied above, .38 Special is significantly cheaper to handload than .45 ACP.

.38 is a bit cheaper to reload than .45, becuase the bullets use less lead. I can get a box of 500 .38 bullets for under $25. A box of 500 .45 bullets is more like $45. Think about it and it makes sense: 125 gr. of lead (or so) per bullet, vs. 200-230 gr. of lead per bullet. You're buying about twice as much material for the same number of shots.

You've mentioned the difference between the recoil levels a few times. Don't fret about that. When you're in serious practice or competition, the difference in recoil levels really isn't very noticable. There's so much to be concentrating on and so many skill sets you're trying to implement in a very short few seconds that you're hardly going to notice a felt recoil difference. (And, ESR and CDP guns are ususally heavier, which helps tame the reciol impulse.) The only real difference you'll see is your split times (recovery time between shots) will be a few fractions of a second slower with the more powerful ammo.

SO, load your .38s to 125,000 and shoot. When you're ready to break into ESR, load your .45s to 165,000 and shoot. The difference in recoil control will be surprisingly little.

[Note: I can't say the same about .22 LR. Practicing with rimfires will be very different. I don't really much reccommend it for match training, though it can be valuable for basic skills and trigger control -- much like dryfiring.]

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

I guess my plan now is:
Read up on how you tell if a used wheelgun is burned out. I seem to remember a quick way to check timing, tightness of lockup, etc. I suppose I won't worry about the sights too much.

Fixed sights would be fine, but you may have to play with your loads a bit. You'll need to load a bullet that hits where your sights are pointing. Heavier bullets impact higer on the target, lighter bullets impact lower.

With adjustable sights, you can pick the load you want to shoot and simply adjust your sights to work with that load.

Adjustable sights are ususally a little larger and easier to see.

Look for a cheapy .22, and understand that its (probably) horrendous trigger pull is training, not "misfortune"! I had completely forgotten about the H&Rs so it's good to reminded.

If you want to buy a cheapy .22, fine. The best thing you could do with it is dryfire it several thousand times a week to develop your trigger finger muscles for better control. Unfortunately, rimfire revolvers are not often very happy being dryfired, so think that through carefully before you break a gun.

Personally, I'd say, if you want to develop your muscles, get one of those grip trainers and squeeze away on it in your free moments. When I hit the range, I want to be shooting a gun that handles and feels EXACTLY like my competition gun. I don't want to shoot something in practice that gets me trained to pull the trigger a certain way, and expect a certain recoil impulse, and develop a shot cadence based on a certain recovery time (based on recoil, again) -- and then shoot something that feels and reacts differently in matches!

There are reasons to switch to rimfires for certain training tasks (though most of those can be handled better by dryfiring) but when I want to practice, I want to practice JUST LIKE I will shoot in a match.

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

Another point on practicing with your competition gun:

Practicing reloading is probably 50% of the challange of shooting a revolver well in action type competition. You need your speedloaders (or moonclips for ESR) and holders set up just so, and need to develop your technique for switching hands, ejecting cases, retreiveing the loader, charging the cylider, re-establishing your firing grip, etc. And you need to do it over and over again the same way until you can be smooth -- and as close to "quick" as possible.

[By the way, you should watch these several 100 times: http://www.myoutdoortv.com/pdk/web/smith.html?feedPID=00zG15zm84msK0GbWemanhJ0KNWQYqM4 There is no better revolver teacher on earth.]

This isn't really going to be quite the same with a .22 LR, as most of the cheap ones are going to be more than 6 shots, or break-top style, an/or not have speedloaders available or whatever. If you do go the .22 route, get a 6-shot one that someone makes speed-loaders for so you can actually practice what you need to.

Otherwise you're cheating yourself out of practicing 1/2 of your skill set.

-Sam

 

[woad_yurt]

One can quickly adjust the DA trigger pull on later, coil spring H&Rs. It's really, really easy. Grind a bit off the spring if it's too stiff (go gradually!) or buy a 5 cent little washer for a spacer if you have light hammer strikes.

On the earlier leaf spring guns, one can grind the long edges of the spring a bit to lighten the pull.

Or, just buy a well used one (broken in.)

The H&R 676 family of guns has always had great DA triggers, well, mine have, anyway.

 

[BBroadside]

Good points, all.

I didn't think IDPA used power floors but looking back I suppose I was thinking of ICORE (which is a wonderful idea that unfortunately doesn't happen much in New England).

I am realizing now that the power floor of IDPA almost certainly scotches my quaint idea of finding a nice old Enfield army revolver (.38-200 or ".380 Revolver", which uses the same case as the .38 S&W) and competing with that. Those things lobbed out their big 200-grainers ... they'd never make the cut.

Personally, I'd say, if you want to develop your muscles, get one of those grip trainers and squeeze away on it in your free moments.

Okay, is this a product that you use all your fingers on? I have one of those ... it's vee-shaped with a spring in the middle and helps all your fingers get strong. (It works!) I was just wondering if there is some other kind of trigger-finger-only product for double-action shooters. There's certainly no point in buying a .22 just to break the firing pin, although I know a lot of them are better about dry-firing these days, and I already have the snap caps for my CZ 452.

Practicing reloading is probably 50% of the challange of shooting a revolver well in action type competition.

This makes sense, but I have to say I wish there were two different words for "reloading". I totally thought you meant handloading for a second! But yes, your advice about the speedloaders, moon clips, and technique squares exactly with the other stuff I've heard on the subject of action shooting.

 

[Old Fuff]

I am realizing now that the power floor of IDPA almost certainly scotches my quaint idea of finding a nice old Enfield army revolver (.38-200 or ".380 Revolver", which uses the same case as the .38 S&W) and competing with that. Those things lobbed out their big 200-grainers ... they'd never make the cut.

Most factory loaded .38 Smith & Wesson cartridges are downloaded because of the many cast-iron, top-break revolvers that are still floating around that were made during the late 19th century. British Enfield and Webley revolvers, as well as the Smith & Wesson hand ejector Victory Models, are a far cry from those. For use in the right revolvers you can safely handload and duplicate .38 Special performance in the shorter .38 S&W case.

 

[Marvin KNox]

BBroadside,

I use a simple heavily mushy exercise squeeze ball to develope hand and finger strength. One can shift the ball around to many different squeeze positions to get a very complete work out while watching T.V. in your easy chair.

My J frames have heavy triggers and it has made a big difference in my shooting.

I am a big believer in laser grips on carry guns. One can practice their trigger work on the wall for hrs. on end with the exact gun being carried day to day.

I would think that it would be a better investment than a gun which would likely have a trigger that was altogether different from your day to day gun.

I wouldn't be without my laser for my revolver. Literally thousands of trigger pulls with instant feedback concerning what happens throughout the squeeze of the trigger is better than that many shots with a .22 at the range or even with that many shots with your carry gun itself.

The laser tells you not only what happens to the gun while pulling the heavy DA revolver trigger. I shows you exactly at what stage of the DA pull through those things happen.

Top it all off with the super smooth trigger you end up with after thousands of dry firings and you have a winning formula IMO.

Less money than a .22. Better, more meaningful practice all the way around. A laser equipt carry gun. = a wise investment IMO.

 

[Jim Watson]

I don't see the point of buying a .38 to practice for matches with a .45. The component savings is not that great and the reload is utterly different.

I do use a .22 for warmup, revolver or auto, though. The key is to limit it to the draw and first shot or transitions for single hits on multiple targets. I don't doubletap the .22 for fear of getting funny ideas about recoil control. And I don't practice reloads because they don't make a .22 Safariland and I worry about dinging up Ace magazines.

You might consider shooting IDPA SSR with a .38 as the main course, though.
At the just-completed IDPA Nationals, there were 23 SSR shooters and only 13 in ESR.

 

[Sam1911]

Okay, is this a product that you use all your fingers on? I have one of those ... it's vee-shaped with a spring in the middle and helps all your fingers get strong. (It works!) I was just wondering if there is some other kind of trigger-finger-only product for double-action shooters.

I was thinking of this:



http://www.cedhk.com/show.php/Object735

-Sam

 

[Sam1911]

I don't see the point of buying a .38 to practice for matches with a .45. The component savings is not that great

In my example, it would be about $0.04 a round difference ($0.10 vs. $0.14, if you're still having to pay $40 for primers). "Not that great" depends on how much you shoot.

and the reload is utterly different.

Really? The only difference I see, especially with the Safariland COMPIII type loaders, is clearing the speedloader out of the way before you close the cylinder. I'm not arguing that they're identical, but they are pretty darned similar.

Do you practice alternate techniques that are dissimilar?

You might consider shooting IDPA SSR with a .38 as the main course, though.

Agreed. That's what I was leaning toward.

At the just-completed IDPA Nationals, there were 23 SSR shooters and only 13 in ESR.

Major congratulations to one of my shooters who took 1st SSR Sharpshooter! (Go Cindy!)

-Sam

 

[BBroadside]

Well I have gotten myself a Gripmaster on Sam1911's recomendation. I am proud to say that I got the one with the heaviest spring and I can still operate it pretty easily; I guess my 15-year-old V-shaped spring thingamajig is pretty effective too.

Right now I'm stumped on a handloading question I've never considered: if 38 S&W / 38-200 uses a different diameter bullet than "normal" 38s (i.e. the ones that are 0.357"), does that make the former significantly more expensive to handload? I know accuracy will drop if I use undersized bullets but if its only marginal it could be okay for practice.

I assume the 38 S&W brass is more expensive too. How many times can use reuse a case before you have to give it to a punk jeweler to make into a necklace?

(Note: this whole post is my Anglophile side talking. My more practical side will probably take over and hook me up with one of them DAO Smith Model 64s, but I figured I should ask.)

 

[9mmepiphany]

here's a thread on DA shooting, you might find interesting

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=5963806#post5963806