How important is the draw?

[38snapcaps]

Is a fast draw really that important? Accdording to the gun magazines it is, All the time you read read how you are supposed to be able to draw and fire in "1.5 seconds or less". Have they been watching too many Westerns, I mean a real world SD incident surely won't look like the opening secene of a "Gunsmoke" episode, right?

I've been considering changing my carry gun to a snub revolver. I like IWB and coat pockets, rarely a holster. With my current auto I can grab for it and my hand is around the grip solidly on the first try. With the small grips on the snubs it takes a little longer to obtain a sold hold. Is this really that critical? Would the upgrade in caliber from .380 to .38 spcl offset the difference in draw time?

Would you say in a real world defensive situation you probably will have your hand on your handgun allready? Or maybe not? I practice for a quick draw quite a bit but always wonder, is this really necessary or is it gun rag hype?

 

[mete]

A trained shooter, as we showed at the IPSC matches, can at close range (6') draw and fire and hit two rounds in one second. A gun in a pocket is a poor place because the BGs are not going to give you 5 min to 'get ready'. The gun has to be in the same place ,readily accessible, at all times. The 380 is marginal for stopping power especially when considering the small 9mm' s on the market. When it hits the fan it will usually happen very quickly with no warning ,your reaction has to be a trained reflex.Thinking must not be 'where is my gun ' but tactics such as should I shoot or not, where is cover etc. Never practice for a fast draw but rather a smooth draw, speed will come with time.

 

[Majic]

The added value of a revolver in the pocket comes in where the handgun doesn't have to be drawn. You grab it and fire it with it still in the pocket. The games have their places, but the real world forces other options.
Also with a pocketed handgun you can have your hand on the handgun without appearing alarmed, so half the draw is already over as you have already aquired the grip.

 

[raz-0]

well, the 1.5 seconds thing is based on threat to first shot hitting the threat. It largely comes from the generalized "defensive range" of about 21 feet, and how long you ahve to put the threat down if they try to rush you and you don't want to fight to keep the gun away from the threat in a hand to hand situation or to get engaged by a threat with a knife.

Make the importance of that what you will.

 

[fastbolt]

The ability to properly, smoothly and quickly draw & present your weapon is very important. You must be able to perform it as fast as necessary ... obviously.

People who legally carry handguns for defensive use, either professionally or non-professionally, may often overlook this important consideration. I've often wondered if many of our armed folks don't simply think it's "enough" to be armed, and find themselves always too busy with whatever to frequently practice their draw & presentation skills. It certainly shows at the range, come qualification time.

We've had folks complain ... cops don't "whine" ... that it's simply unreasonable, and certainly unnecessary, to require that they demonstrate the ability to perform a failure-to-stop-drill, or triple tap ... from the holster, with the retention devices used ... at 3 yards ... in 4 seconds. Either in uniform, with an "exposed" holster, AND in plainclothes.

Yep, just 4 seconds ... as many of you raise your eyes and wonder if it's being done in slow-motion.

And, like mete said, a reasonably trained shooter can do it in a second ... and just over a second with a "precision" head shot added. Many cops don't like to spend their own time & money to train, though ...

I've watched many cops arrive at the range, and remove their car coats & jackets, so they don't have to try and draw while wearing them, while being "timed" ... and then, they'll try and place their hands on their weapon grips in anticipation of the timer buzzer, or verbal signal (pays to be prepared for an unexpected "threat" signal, instead of the same old sound) ... or, they'll try and reholster after the first time and conveniently "forget" to resecure their holder retention devices, if they have them (we allow "open-top" holsters for plainclothes).
Anything to give them that little extra "edge" in order to qualify under a very reasonable time limitation ...

Who are they "cheating"?

Many of them will "remember", with some small chagrin, to resecure their weapons in their holsters if we remind them ... and some will say that in "real life" they'd already have their weapons drawn before they're needed, and being able to "fast draw" isn't necessary in L/E work. Nice thought, but probably not as realistic as they're hoping. Then again, some folks seem to lead charmed lives ...

CCW folks? Well using last night as an example, we had a lot of folks wear holsters for the class ... less than half of them. That's a lot for one of the CCW classes. I always encourage folks to use their chosen method of carry to draw & shoot from during the range, even if it requires some accomodation. For example, if someone wants to draw from a fanny pack they wear directly in front of their torso, and they're right handed, they get the far left shooting position, so they won't cover anyone during their draw. Ditto for a shoulder holster user ...

The thing is that while many folks may arrive at the range with different holsters for their weapons, not very many of them elect to wear them for the shooting part of the class. I don't press them for answers, bu those that do offer explanations seem to use a variation on the theme that they aren't "comfortable" trying to draw their weapons from holsters yet.

The words that tickle the hairs on the back of my neck are "I've never shot this gun before ...", but that's another subject.

Okay, so many cops & non-cops apparently simply don't ... or won't ... practice drawing and presenting their weapons in a reasonably practical manner.

Here's a public link that someo of you may find interesting, and some may find uninteresting ... It's the Uniform Crime Reporting program's report of Law Enforcement Officers Killed, and it's the 2001 report, which covers from 1992-2001. It's in .pdf format, and it's long ... but there's some interesting information contained within it.

http://www.lelib.com/files/2001leoka.pdf

A couple of tidbits ...

At the bottom of page 15, you'll see that of the 594 officers feloniously killed with firearms (the accidental deaths are listed separately, further in the report), that 296 of them occurred within 0-5 FEET, and another 131 of them occurred within 6-10 FEET. That's close folks ...

Now, I've said in many threads that one of my most common off duty weapons nowadays, especially in warmer weather, is a S&W 642-1 J-frame carried in a jacket pocket when I'm on my motorcycle. Naturally, I can't achieve the same speed of drawing & presentation with that method of carry as I can with a belt holster, and it's not as "easy", either. It's a compromise ...

The practicality & feasibility of drawing and shooting from a moving vehicle, especially a motorcyle, is another subject entirely.

When I'm off the bike, though, and wandering around the small towns and rural areas where my wife and I like to go, I DO make sure I've adjusted my jacket as well as possible to make the potential drawing of my concealed J-frame as "easy" as possible for it being carried in a pocket. Nothing goes in the pocket with the gun, and the pocket is unzipped ... and if the jacket is removed, I carry it so the pocket is easily accessible to me, but it's not easily accessible to others, not is it likely to allow the unintentional appearance or loss of the gun. The spare ammunition is also carried in a front pocket, by itself, positioned for easy removal.

Naturally, whenever I wear a holstered weapon off duty, the draw and presentation is going to be much easier & faster.

AWARENESS is one of the critical aspects of effectively, legally carrying a weapon ... as is AVOIDANCE, for non-L/E that have the ability to avoid confrontation. Environmental awareness can help mitigate nasty surprises, as can avoiding circumstances which might present an increased risk factor ... but naturally, there are no guarantees.

I don't have knowledge of any professionally prepared reports that detail the circumstances involved in non-L/E shooting situations where speed of draw & presentation is discussed ... and I'd be happy to learn of any such reports if anyone else has knowledge of any.

In the meantime, I don't have any solid answers ... but diligent, frequent and proper practice (with an EMPTY weapon) is hardly ever a bad thing.

Best of luck ... the J-frames are great little CCW weapons. Although they DO require a LOT more practice in order for many folks to be able to effectively & accurately shoot them.

 

[Ankeny]

I think the ability to make a rapid presentation is very important. However, I believe having the pistol in your hand long before you need to pull the trigger is really where it's at.

Not to be argumentative, but it seems like shooters always focus on bragging rights to a fast draw. FWIW, I know some IPSC guys who are pretty fast. But, the vast majority (I would dare say 90% or more) of IPSC shooters can't even come close to getting off two shots in one second on demand, even with their race gear.

...and just over a second with a "precision" head shot added

That kinda depends on how you define "just over".

 

[OH25shooter]

Why be so concerned about fast drawing a gun or the best fast draw holster for conceal carry? Face it, if the BG gets the draw and you and threatens to kill you unless you hand over your wallet, you are not going to reach for your gun and draw. Are you? The only way you can protect your life is if you find that opening where you can get your gun out quickly "in hand" to defend yourself. Cops are trained to take cover as you remove your weapon. Not stand face to face and shoot it out. Just because you take a 12 hour course (or whatever) I hope one doesn't think he is now invisible because "I" have a gun. Many well trained, expert marksman police officers are dead because some dirtbag with a cheap $25 handgun got the drop on him, fired one shot and hit him in the head. My partner (on duty) was robbed at gunpoint in a dark alley. He never saw the perp or had time to react. IMO, I'd practice more shooting and leave the fast draw to the shooting leagues.

 

[Smoke]

Speed is not as important to me as getting my "Combat Grip" clearing the leather and presenting the firearm to the threat. I practice to do that regularly. I can not do that and put two hits on target in less than a second. But I can do it the same way every time.

Smooth and consistant. Speed will come.

Smoke

 

[Blackhawk 6]

If you will forgive a somewhat lengthy post, I will share my opinion on the matter.

The ability to rapidly deploy your weapon to respond to a threat is a fundamental skill to have for any weapon. If I need my weapon I probably need it now. But rapid deployment of the weapon is not the only fundamental skill nor would I say it is the most important. It is, however, important.

Quantifying how fast a weapon needs to be deployed is problematic. Often the evidence will be anecdotal (shot timers a generally not present during armed encounters.) The matter is further complicated by the fact that, generally, when the good guy's skill level is not up to par, he is not around to tell us how slow "too slow" was. Factor in the fact that all armed encounters are not created equal and the complexity of the problem becomes apparent.

I believe that there are certain considerations that put your question in perspective.

1. You may have your weapon in your hand when trouble finds you, and you may not. Refusing to recognize the need to be able to deploy you handgun quickly does not eliminate that need.

2. Having a weapon is the first part of being able to deploy it rapidly. If you select a method of carry that has you leaving your weapon at home 1/2 the time, but that allows you to "quick-draw" you probably have not gained much, and potentially lost a lot.

3. You have to hit what you aim at. Rapidly deploying your firearm and missing the target does little to improve your situation. Selecting a weapon and method of carry that allows you to quickly access your weapon and deliver a decisive hit is essential.

4. Faster is better. Assuming equivalent accuracy the shot that is fired sooner is better. I have difficulty imagining a situation where the act of deploying my firearm too quickly puts me jeopardy. I can think of plenty of situations where deploying it too slowly does, however.

5. A short-barreled revolver is more difficult to shoot. It is not impossible, it may not be significantly more difficult but it is more difficult. I do not know about you but my life is difficult enough.

6. You can do everything right with regard to preparation and still not come out on top. Someone is always faster, stronger, more devious, more lucky etc. This is important to understand, not becasue we should look for "good enough," but because it keeps things in perspective. You can drive yourself crazy developing sub-second draws from concealment and it may have no impact whatsoever on the outcome of your fight.

I use the 1.5 second standard. Its origins are lost to me, but it seems like a reasonable standard. I continually strive to become faster and I have had some success.

Whatever standard you choose, remember you just bet your life on it.

 

[voilsb]

I'd say fast draw is important, but as fastbolt mentioned, so is situational awareness and, though it, avoidance. Which goes hand and hand with what 38snapcaps said: if you don't get a chance or opportunity to draw your weapon, what good does a fast draw do?

Personally, I don't train on my draw nearly as often as I'd like. But I can practice situational awareness and avoidance in absolutely everything I do.

 

[355sigfan]

Well unless your walking around with a gun in your hand at all times. Being able to draw your weapon quickly and effeciently is very important. Having a snub in your pocket with your hand on it may work in some situations. But it will not work well past arms reach unless you can see the sights with the gun in your pocket. Ideally you should not let the threat get within arms reach of you if you can help it.

You should get some training and a good holster and learn how to draw. Then you should draw your weapon at the range if allowed prior to every shot string to build your muscle memory. Re holstering is important too. Make sure you scan and don't look at your holster when you re holster. Do it by feel and muscle memory.

How fast your draw is will depend on many things such as your physical attributes like reaciton time. Concealment holster, and range of the target to you. For 7 yards I would say 1.5 seconds is a fine time for 1 round to the target and 2 seconds is a fair amount of time to get 2 rounds off.
Pat

 

[Majic]

Some put way to much faith in the games and the idea that the threat will be 21 feet away and facing you. Reality is the threat will most likely ambush you. The approach will be as silent as possible and from behind. Or if the approach is head on then the attacker will have his weapon out. If he has a firearm then you will be behind the curve and can get shot before you even finish the draw. If he has a knife or blunt object then you have a very good chance. Contrary to some people's popular belief, crooks are not dumb. They will use every advantage that they can in the attack.
Just beware that most attacks are up close and personal, not yards away. Being aware of your situation will go a lot further then trying to be a fast draw artist. What you don't see will be the biggest problem.

 

[popbang]

This is one time I must agree with 355sigfan, you need to practice drawing and firing. You also must remember that in a defensive situation you will react to the threat and not be the instigator.

I practice a significant number of draw and shoots when at the range. I also draw while moving both right and left as well as forward and back. I wish there was more cover to acquire at the range as I feel this is an area that many people forget about.

 

[fastbolt]

Quite a few common sense, practical considerations and thoughts expressed so far ...

Oh yeah, and you're right MX5 ...

That kinda depends on how you define "just over".

Personally, I define "just over" as somewhere in the consistent 1.1-1.2 second range.

It's been cold, windy and a bit wet at our outdoor range, and extended range work in this weather requires a bit more outer clothing layers than I normally wear for work (sport coat). The extra zippered sweat shirt under the heavy jacket, and a regular sweat shirt sort of bunched & "cleared" to partially expose the holstered weapon, tends to slow things down when performing a sweep ... and on the average bad weather day, I can't seem to do much better than a range of 1-1.3 seconds for a "precision" (head) shot from concealment at 3 yards ... occasionally dipping down into the .8-.9 second range (Like I'd ever be able to do that on demand). Warm weather, and less outer clothing layers, generally results in faster times. I prepare for the worst weather and worst times ... and hope to never "need" to draw upon the skill ... no pun intended.

In the real world I've had my fair share of fast reaction presentations from under a sport/suit coat to assure me that my training has achieved some beneficial effect ...

Blackhawk 6 brought up another good point ... and that's essentially that the type of weapon will also become a factor in the speed & smoothness of the draw. For some people that may mean that only a single weapon will be useful for consistent, repeatable properly performed draws ... while for other folks similar models of a particular weapon system will work ... and so on.

Small J-frame, and similar, revolvers are often more difficult for many folks to draw and get off a properly delivered first shot, because of the diminutive size of the grip, which may increase their difficult in achieveing the proper grip during their draw ... as well as the short sight radius for those circusmtances which really require some sort of sight alignment/aligned sights, flash sight picture. The same might be said of little pistols, like the Kel-Tecs or the Seecamps,when it comes to sights. Different strokes ...

We recently had occasion to check the speed of our folks for a 3 yard draw & fire "precision (head) shot" scenario. The average "cold" time for most of our "non-gun enthusiast" folks seems to be running around 1.6-1.8 ... That doesn't appear to be bad, considering the small target area presented, and especially considering the fact that most of our folks may only shoot twice a year for qualification.

Naturally, we have some faster folks, and their times can run down into 1.2-1.4 second range from an exposed holster ... and a few folks that can consistently hit 1 second and under fairly consistently.

And before anyone asks, some of the slowest people are wearing Level III holsters ... and some of the fastest people are wearing Level III holsters ... so using the Level III holster as an "excuse" for a slower draw & presentation doesn't really wash. Practice, practice, practice ... properly.

There's no way in the world I can draw my 642 from a jacket pocket anywhere nearly as fast as I can from a proper belt holster ... and I won't pretend I can, not even to myself. Also, my pocket holster pretty much prevents me from shooting from inside a side jacket pocket, and my "common" choice of pocket is an inside breast pocket in my leather & denim jackets, which also precludes "pocket shooting". That's not something I consider anymore ... not since I quit carrying my 649 in an outer raincoat pocket at work.

To mitigate that inevitable "compromise" in speed of presentation, not only is my threat awareness & avoidance deliberately as high as possible for the circumstances (remember, I'm often ON my motorcycle, with my wife) ... but I spend a LOT of time making sure that I can get my shots off fast AND accurately once I have the little gun out.

That's MY compromise for carrying the 642 ... It may take up to second longer (not as long as you'd think, but is IS longer), but once I have it out I'll still need to be able to potentially deliver fast & accurate hits ... and that I CAN work on.

Concealment is a compromise ...

Choose wisely, but choose what's wise for yourself ... and continue learning so that you don't "miss" an opportunity to take advantage of some improved method.

 

[pax]

Practice getting to your weapon safely and smoothly is absolutely vital if you ever intend to do so in public. Not all attacks are going to be fixable with a fast draw. That doesn't mean none of them will be!

More importantly, if you practice drawing your gun safely from the rig you ordinarily carry, you'll discover whether or not you can safely draw your weapon. You may discover that you can't draw from your beloved fanny pack without sweeping everyone to the left of you -- great! Now, where are you going to shove your loved one as you draw? If you've practiced drawing out of the fanny pack safely enough times, you know your finger won't go anywhere near that trigger and maybe you'll be willing to risk sweeping your kids as you draw. If you haven't practiced it -- repeatedly and smoothly and correctly -- you either won't know you're sweeping them, or won't have trained your trigger finger to be extra specially carefully cautious on that draw -- and that could lead to Very Bad Things.

If you carry a Glock in a waistband holster and don't work on a smooth, practiced presentation, you may fumble and end up with Glock leg if you have to draw under stress. That's no good, is it?

The timer doesn't matter as much as continuous practice at being smooth and safe. But guess what? If you practice being smooth and safe long enough, eventually the timer will be telling you good things.

pax

When asked to summarize a recent gunfight, Bill Hickock (known for his short answers) was quoted at saying simply, "He missed. I didn't." Bill correctly concluded that his point was made and that additional details would be superfluous. There is no substitute for surgical accuracy, no matter how exciting the situation. "Lots of shooting" doesn't end fights. Hits do! -- John Farnam

 

[355sigfan]

Contrary to some people's popular belief, crooks are not dumb. They will use every advantage that they can in the attack.
END

Actually most are quite stupid from my experience. Their judgment is even further diluted by drugs and alcohol.
Pat

 

[happyguy]

I normally expect that by the time I'm aware of the threat I'll be looking down the barrel of the enemy's weapon. No, I don't walk around in a fog (most of the time anyway) but I believe in training for the worst case scenario.

Bill Jordan could draw and shoot faster than most folks could pull the trigger on a SAA Colt that was already in their hand.

Why can't you? I?

Regards,
Happyguy

 

[Majic]

Actually most are quite stupid from my experience. Their judgment is even further diluted by drugs and alcohol.

Then why so many attacks remain unsolved?

 

[Josey]

Access is important. The true key is awareness. If you are aware, you will beware. The thing that kills is overconfidence. Every LEO I have seen murdered in the streets died because they didn't have control of the shooter. The fact is, we have to be aggressive and mean. Gouging, kicking, biting, pinching, slugging and other forms of physical assault should be used in combination with retreat and draw. Hurt the attacker, make every effort to disable and pain them. If the attack fails, your weapon is in your hand, pull the trigger. Many LEO deaths AARs find the LEO didn't fire a shot or make contact with their killer. CCW is a similar set of rules, mark them up, retreat and draw. If they continue their attack, pull the trigger. Aware, beware, aggressive control techniques, assault and retreat and pull the trigger or watch them run away. Remember, LEOs are able to chase the BGs, CCWs should chill and breathe a sigh of relief.

 

[355sigfan]

Then why so many attacks remain unsolved?
END

Take a look at the Uniform Crime Report Data. Serious attacks (Assaults) are usually solved. Minor assaults not as much because of police resources. Its always good to have the facts before forming an opinion. I deal with criminals for a living and 95% of them are not that smart. There are exceptions. But the exceptions are less of a risk to the average citizen because they have better things to do than to mug people. They are running large scale narcotics operations and doing other forms of organized crime. Street criminals are stupid, they are also unpredictable and thats where the danger lies.

Pat

 

[Ben Shepherd]

Couple things:

1. A good grip on the gun is paramount.
2. Sound mechanics are more important than speed.


This is why we practice weapon presentation. Practice the draw one step at a time, concentrating on doing each portion perfectly. As you start to "memorize" good mechanics speed will come naturally. Maintaining the level of speed you're comfortable with will require practice.

 

[Ankeny]

fastbolt:

And, like mete said, a reasonably trained shooter can do it in a second ... and just over a second with a "precision" head shot added.

You and mete are indeed a couple of "fastbolts". On a 2 to the body 1 to the head drill a .75 draw, .15 split, and .20 transition to the head add up to 1.1 seconds. I'll give you one thing, your standards are pretty high. The only way I could do that on demand with carry gear would be with turning targets as opposed to pure time.

 

[Michael Zeleny]

Then why so many attacks remain unsolved?

Take a look at the Uniform Crime Report Data. Serious attacks (Assaults) are usually solved.

From the 2002 UCR:

An examination of violent crime clearances showed that the clearance rate for murder was 64.0 percent; for aggravated assault, 56.5 percent; for forcible rape, 44.5 percent, and for robbery, 25.7 percent.

Factoring out the crimes committed by amateurs, e.g. murders of friends or family members, leaves the professional criminal with good chances of getting off scot-free.

 

[Ala Dan]

from fastbolt

"you must be able to perform it as quick as necessary ........ obviously"

Good point there my friend; as the result's could prove too
be hazardous to ones health!

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

 

[fastbolt]

You and mete are indeed a couple of "fastbolts".

Thanks, but I feel compelled to explain that I've been on our range staff since 1990, and I've been serious about putting my time to good use. I've been told that I've made significant inroads into our annual ammunition budget, too.

Also, I'm NOT the fastest and most accurate person on the staff, either.

I've mentioned it before, on some forum or another, but the head instructor ... who's in his early 60's ... has drawn and fired a 1-handed double tap, at 3 yards, from his service belt & holster, after having been up and worked an 18-hour shift prior to the range session ... consistently hovering around .5 seconds and under. I can remember times of .47, .52, & .49 seconds being displayed on the timer I was using to start the drills. I CAN'T even begin to approach that level of skill and speed ... and yes, he achieved good hits, too. The annoying part is that he was holding a cigarette in his off hand while I was timing him during several of these drills.

He also walked up one day, when I was practicing some concealment draws at 3 yards, and in order to illustrate some pointers he offered ... he drew "cold" from UNDER his jacket and fired a 1-handed double tap in .77 seconds. I remember the time for obvious reasons ... That would be a respectable time, in my humble opinion, for someone drawing from an exposed duty holster ... let alone from a concealment holster, under a jacket.

He has very high standards for his instructor staff, but he provides a very high level of instructional help to us, as well.

After several years of his help, I'm improving somewhat ... but so are the other instructors. Our friendly "competition" among the staff generally results in the "fastest & most accurate" varying from one day to the next, which is to be expected.

That's one of the reasons we remain on staff (which is part-time, as we all have other daily assignments & responsibilities in our agency). I can only imagine what we might be able to learn and accomplish if we were able to do our instructor/armorer jobs full-time.

Yep Ala Dan ... my sentiments, too.

As has been said countless times, though ... "speed" can often be considered to be the consequence of PROPER, frequent & slow practice. Improper & "rushed" practice may only reinforce poorly performed skills ... and where's the benefit in that?

Practice well ... safely.

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