Hey, I forgot to mention, you can get a shoulder rig which does not point the gun to the rear. Galco makes one which carries the gun vertical and you do not have to draw it UP to get it out. It's a "front break" design which lets you pull the gun straight out the front, still pointed down at the ground until you're ready to point it at the bad guy in front of you!
What's wrong w/Cross-Draw?
- Thread starter MinnMooney
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Mad Magyar
Member
Unfortunately, I'm a visual learner and am trying to envision how you grasp the weapon from the rig with your description? Seriously...
halfacop
Member
You would grasp it in the same manner as a regular vertical carried gun.
Now obvioulsy its mentioned that you can remain pointing the gun towards the ground - however - when hastily drawing from this type of rig your muzzle will begin to point backwords somewhat, as you break the frame from the holster.
This type of rig does considerably reduce the muzzle ever pointing towards the rear during carry and drawing. Keeping in mind though - it is not nearly as secure a rig and would be prone to gun grabs abit easier during a struggle.
Now obvioulsy its mentioned that you can remain pointing the gun towards the ground - however - when hastily drawing from this type of rig your muzzle will begin to point backwords somewhat, as you break the frame from the holster.
This type of rig does considerably reduce the muzzle ever pointing towards the rear during carry and drawing. Keeping in mind though - it is not nearly as secure a rig and would be prone to gun grabs abit easier during a struggle.
wheelgunslinger
Member
I was hoping someone would bring up Hickock's revolvers.
I like to carry crossdraw since I used to do lots of hiking and work in the woods and got comfy with the way the weapon drew and pointed.
Also, it's easier to keep an eye on the weapon if you open carry in public. Someone has to be in front of you to snag it. Not to mention that you don't have to shuffle the weapon around on your person as you enter and leave a vehicle, or go from car to motorcycle, so you develop a reaction based on it always being in one place.
And, if you have a confrontation with someone, you just have to fold your arms and your strong side hand is inches from your weapon. Not to mention that as you draw, you can turn sideways and present less of a target.
I'm not an Ayoob, Pincus, or Jordan. So, take it with a grain of salt.
I like to carry crossdraw since I used to do lots of hiking and work in the woods and got comfy with the way the weapon drew and pointed.
Also, it's easier to keep an eye on the weapon if you open carry in public. Someone has to be in front of you to snag it. Not to mention that you don't have to shuffle the weapon around on your person as you enter and leave a vehicle, or go from car to motorcycle, so you develop a reaction based on it always being in one place.
And, if you have a confrontation with someone, you just have to fold your arms and your strong side hand is inches from your weapon. Not to mention that as you draw, you can turn sideways and present less of a target.
I'm not an Ayoob, Pincus, or Jordan. So, take it with a grain of salt.
MinnMooney
Member
to polekitty
Thanks for the tip. I checked out the Galco site but, unfortunately, they don't make it for my Kahr.
Thanks for the tip. I checked out the Galco site but, unfortunately, they don't make it for my Kahr.
wcwhitey
Member
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- Dec 30, 2006
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- 2,814
A couple of posters mentioned that with strong side your gun is just as vulnerable to a grab from behind. This is true, however, much more force can be exerted by your strong side arm in order to keep the gun in the holster. With an XDraw using the strong arm on the opposite side of the body is just weaker having to reach across. If one uses gun side arm with cross draw the butt forward angle leaves you with less to hold on to. JMHO Bill
Geronimo45
Member
Front-break shoulder rig?
http://www.fist-inc.com/holsters/holster/70.htm
They seem to have the Kahrs as model guns, I'm guessing it's similar to the Galco setup.
Another interesting rig (my current prefence) is this thing:
http://www.klnullholsters.com/NewHolsters/smz.htm
If somebody tries to draw it from behind, proper retention technique is to laugh maniacally and call 911. They will arrive long before the gun is removed. From in front, an arm across the upper chest locks it in place tightly - but just twisting the wrist to snatch the gun away would be difficult in itself. Not a problem for the wearer, though.
I've got no objection to cross-draw - I'd probably use it if:
1) Texas allowed open carry.
2) I could get used to belt carry. I don't like belt carry from a comfort perspective - yes, I've got a good belt. And the belt by itself is pesky to me.
It's my opinion that, unless you use multiple holsters for various parts of your day, you ought to carry in a manner most conducive to a reasonably fast draw in the situations you are most often in. The greater draw speed gained in a strong-side holster means nothing if you have to fight your chair to draw, and you are constantly in your chair throughout the day. Crossdraw would probably work better more of the time in that situation.
How do you spend most of your time when you are carrying? Standing or sitting? Depends on your job and the times that you carry - maybe you can't carry on the job, or maybe you're required to.
Make your own decisions based on your own situation - just make that decision for a reason besides "Mannix did it."
Gunwriters - even the best - are speaking from their perspective, not necessarily yours. I don't know how many of 'em slam shoulder rigs in general, those with skinny straps in particular, and especially the skinny-strap models carrying a full-sized gun. And I hear people on this forum and others commenting on how painful they can be. I don't deny their experience - their experience jest ain't mine.
http://www.fist-inc.com/holsters/holster/70.htm
They seem to have the Kahrs as model guns, I'm guessing it's similar to the Galco setup.
Another interesting rig (my current prefence) is this thing:
http://www.klnullholsters.com/NewHolsters/smz.htm
If somebody tries to draw it from behind, proper retention technique is to laugh maniacally and call 911. They will arrive long before the gun is removed. From in front, an arm across the upper chest locks it in place tightly - but just twisting the wrist to snatch the gun away would be difficult in itself. Not a problem for the wearer, though.
I've got no objection to cross-draw - I'd probably use it if:
1) Texas allowed open carry.
2) I could get used to belt carry. I don't like belt carry from a comfort perspective - yes, I've got a good belt. And the belt by itself is pesky to me.
It's my opinion that, unless you use multiple holsters for various parts of your day, you ought to carry in a manner most conducive to a reasonably fast draw in the situations you are most often in. The greater draw speed gained in a strong-side holster means nothing if you have to fight your chair to draw, and you are constantly in your chair throughout the day. Crossdraw would probably work better more of the time in that situation.
How do you spend most of your time when you are carrying? Standing or sitting? Depends on your job and the times that you carry - maybe you can't carry on the job, or maybe you're required to.
Make your own decisions based on your own situation - just make that decision for a reason besides "Mannix did it."
Gunwriters - even the best - are speaking from their perspective, not necessarily yours. I don't know how many of 'em slam shoulder rigs in general, those with skinny straps in particular, and especially the skinny-strap models carrying a full-sized gun. And I hear people on this forum and others commenting on how painful they can be. I don't deny their experience - their experience jest ain't mine.
Mad Magyar
Member
Thanks for the visual...Kind of what I thought....Having some experience with my own rigs, all horizontal; and worn slightly high near the arm pit: this wouldn't work for me....The release idea is fine, but a firm first-grasp would require me to have a double-jointed wrist or move it around my hand once or twice...This design facilitates grabbing the pistol with the thumb & forefinger for clearance. This makes little sense, IMHO.....
To each their own.....
saltydog452
Member
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,707
Convential Cross Draw?
Nosir, nothing at all.
For me though, it don't work.
Girth of belly, ( I prefer to think that my arms are too short), precludes convential cross draw while seated..especially when straped in a seat belt/shoulder harness.
Kramer markets a mesh kinda/sorta tee shirt with a 'pocket'...5.11 markets a dual external pocket with a velcro closure for an 'under the pocket... pocket' in a half sleeve, two chest pocket shirt.
I like them both, but for different reasons.
When traveling, my DL, CHL, a credit card, and proof of insurance are cliped together and in a top pocket. When/if pulled over by a State Trooper, they're in my hand, outside of the window. No scurring around looking for proper documents by reaching into glove box for insurance documentation or hip pocket for DL and such.
If being being susceptible to 'car jacking' is a concern, such pockets may be a place for ultra light weight revolvers as well. Try not to shoot your left arm.
You can also avoid convertables, keep the windows powered up, automatic door locks engaged, and don't be afraid to use the accelerator pedal, mixing body paint, and evasive driving.
I kinda got off the original thread subject, but for me, the advantage for cross draw/under arm carry is while being seated, especially driving and strapped in by restraints.
Or diahrrea.
The Birami Hip-Grip is another option.
Respectfully,
salty.
.
Nosir, nothing at all.
For me though, it don't work.
Girth of belly, ( I prefer to think that my arms are too short), precludes convential cross draw while seated..especially when straped in a seat belt/shoulder harness.
Kramer markets a mesh kinda/sorta tee shirt with a 'pocket'...5.11 markets a dual external pocket with a velcro closure for an 'under the pocket... pocket' in a half sleeve, two chest pocket shirt.
I like them both, but for different reasons.
When traveling, my DL, CHL, a credit card, and proof of insurance are cliped together and in a top pocket. When/if pulled over by a State Trooper, they're in my hand, outside of the window. No scurring around looking for proper documents by reaching into glove box for insurance documentation or hip pocket for DL and such.
If being being susceptible to 'car jacking' is a concern, such pockets may be a place for ultra light weight revolvers as well. Try not to shoot your left arm.
You can also avoid convertables, keep the windows powered up, automatic door locks engaged, and don't be afraid to use the accelerator pedal, mixing body paint, and evasive driving.
I kinda got off the original thread subject, but for me, the advantage for cross draw/under arm carry is while being seated, especially driving and strapped in by restraints.
Or diahrrea.
The Birami Hip-Grip is another option.
Respectfully,
salty.
.
Good way to carry a large sidearm in the field, away from a slung rifle, or on horseback. I use cross draw (and flapped) holsters for 'woods' carry.
Cross draw is mostly a range safety issue, I think it's fine for a 'secondary' arm, or a large scoped handgun. Think strong side makes more sense for concealment, but for open carry I'm almost always crossdraw. Easier in a car or on horseback.
Cross draw is mostly a range safety issue, I think it's fine for a 'secondary' arm, or a large scoped handgun. Think strong side makes more sense for concealment, but for open carry I'm almost always crossdraw. Easier in a car or on horseback.
many police are shot by their own weapons...from a weapon retention standpoint...the carrying of your weapon on your strongside hip allows one to protect the weapon ...cross draw merely presents the butt of the weapon directly..and easily accesible to someone across from you...
Tequila jake
Member
Like Geronimo45, I live in Texas where open carry is not allowed, so there are not many situations where I could carry cross-draw. Of course, it might work under a jacket, but it's so hot here most of the time that I wear a jacket less than six months out of the year. And even then, I usually take it off when I'm indoors. For me, seated in a car would probably be about the only time that I could carry cross-draw.
Tequila Jake
Tequila Jake
1man
Member
I use the crossdraw method when I use my S&W 640 as a secondary carried on the waist. I also employ the use of a shoulder holster for my larger guns(USP45T & Sig P229S). I only use the crossdraw method when I have to use my weak-hand.
A crossdraw worn at a raked angle, FORWARD of the hip bone, will be easier to defend against a frontal grab attempt than many duty holsters worn on the strong side hip, especially if both persons involved have the same-side dominant hands. Think about the angles for a moment! The only holster location easier to defend is the "appendix" position, forward of the dominant-side hip.
brownie0486
Member
TallPine,
You beat me to that point.
Ricebrnr;
From a biomechanics point of view, strong side allows the muzzle to be rotated onto the target sooner and then allows you to punch forward, firing the whole time if absolutely necessary. Shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line right?
Muzzle to be rotated onto the target sooner? Not so sure on that count. I've actually had a few tell me that over the years and we unload em, double and triple check em, then try it. They lost every time.
I'll carry crossdraw, usually it was when I was carrying two guns doing EP work at one place or another back east. Easier to get to while moving in and out of vehicles with the principle, easier to keep a hand on a gun in a crowd without being obvious.
It became the primary in those situations, not the secondary. As the primary, it sweeps only from the point of 11 O clock [ if you are facing high noon at 12 O clock ], it is quite easy to keep from "painting" anyone, can be drawn in such a manner as to be "pushed' to the threat with no more painting than strong side carry.
It's fast. As to Mr. Jordan, he didn't carry his gun concealed, he moved amongst bad hombres all the time, usually in numbers, had to be in close proximity to these types while searching, talking, arresting them, etc. It wouldn't be the best for those times, and hence his oratory on the subject fits with what he saw as a bad idea.
His situations were different than most of us on the streets, using a man like Jordan as an example of why NOT to carry crossdraw is not germain to most of us in this discussion.
To answer the question: Whats wrong with crossdraw?
Not much for most of us.
Brownie
You beat me to that point.
Ricebrnr;
From a biomechanics point of view, strong side allows the muzzle to be rotated onto the target sooner and then allows you to punch forward, firing the whole time if absolutely necessary. Shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line right?
Muzzle to be rotated onto the target sooner? Not so sure on that count. I've actually had a few tell me that over the years and we unload em, double and triple check em, then try it. They lost every time.
I'll carry crossdraw, usually it was when I was carrying two guns doing EP work at one place or another back east. Easier to get to while moving in and out of vehicles with the principle, easier to keep a hand on a gun in a crowd without being obvious.
It became the primary in those situations, not the secondary. As the primary, it sweeps only from the point of 11 O clock [ if you are facing high noon at 12 O clock ], it is quite easy to keep from "painting" anyone, can be drawn in such a manner as to be "pushed' to the threat with no more painting than strong side carry.
It's fast. As to Mr. Jordan, he didn't carry his gun concealed, he moved amongst bad hombres all the time, usually in numbers, had to be in close proximity to these types while searching, talking, arresting them, etc. It wouldn't be the best for those times, and hence his oratory on the subject fits with what he saw as a bad idea.
His situations were different than most of us on the streets, using a man like Jordan as an example of why NOT to carry crossdraw is not germain to most of us in this discussion.
To answer the question: Whats wrong with crossdraw?
Not much for most of us.
Brownie
1911 guy
Member
Retention is more difficult with a crossdraw.
Drawstroke is slower. If you can manage a quick crossdraw, you have the potential for a smokin' fast strongside draw.
It's almost worthless at contact distance. You'd better have a backup weapon.
Many schools won't allow it because they have no idea what the students' experience level is upon arrival, nor their attitude/training about trigger discipline. I've seen lot's of shooters with good trigger management (break, reset, finger position, etc.) but lousy discipline (keep booger hook off bang switch).
Drawstroke is slower. If you can manage a quick crossdraw, you have the potential for a smokin' fast strongside draw.
It's almost worthless at contact distance. You'd better have a backup weapon.
Many schools won't allow it because they have no idea what the students' experience level is upon arrival, nor their attitude/training about trigger discipline. I've seen lot's of shooters with good trigger management (break, reset, finger position, etc.) but lousy discipline (keep booger hook off bang switch).
Strings
Member
Odd... I go with a 1991 compact at 3:30, and a Smith 19 at 9:30-10.
Concealed under a sweater in winter, and a loose "cover shirt" in summer. Gives me the availability of a weapon in almost any circumstance, without the need of moving a gun around.
Safety on the draw? With the 19, my thumb is pushing against the back of the hammer until I'm on target: impossible for it to fire. I draw my .45 in a similar fashion (thumb on top of the cocked hammer until on target). Haven't yet had an ND with a pistol (need some wood to knock on now)...
Concealed under a sweater in winter, and a loose "cover shirt" in summer. Gives me the availability of a weapon in almost any circumstance, without the need of moving a gun around.
Safety on the draw? With the 19, my thumb is pushing against the back of the hammer until I'm on target: impossible for it to fire. I draw my .45 in a similar fashion (thumb on top of the cocked hammer until on target). Haven't yet had an ND with a pistol (need some wood to knock on now)...
dav
Member
Brings up an interesting question. Why aren't there any (that I am aware of) horizontal carry strong side holsters?Ricebrnr said:
That way there would be absolutely no rotation, sweeping, or even aiming! The gun would already be on target (assuming you face your target when you shoot...)
trackaddict88
Member
Motorcycle?
I really don't understand the crossdraw on a motorcycle. The front brake and throttle require your right hand and on a reasonably fast bike you can get out of trouble quick with the throttle.
Great site, BTW.
I really don't understand the crossdraw on a motorcycle. The front brake and throttle require your right hand and on a reasonably fast bike you can get out of trouble quick with the throttle.
Great site, BTW.
The Lone Haranguer
Member
If x-draw will allow one, in one's everyday personal situation(s), to access a gun faster, more easily or both (actually, these go hand in hand), why not avail oneself of it?
brownie0486
Member
I really don't understand the crossdraw on a motorcycle
It's easier to access the weapon, the same reason when seated in a car [ you are still seated on a MC right? ]
Crossdraw was primary to horse soldiers, for the same reason. They were seated, and it's easier to access than strongside.
The front brake and throttle require your right hand and on a reasonably fast bike you can get out of trouble quick with the throttle.
Can the bike move faster than a bullet? There may be a time and place that if you need the gun, the bike, let alone anything else is not going to be fast enough. If you are carrying strongside, the controls you mention are still in the same place, but you're going to have a harder time drawing [ meaning it's taking longer ].
Brownie
It's easier to access the weapon, the same reason when seated in a car [ you are still seated on a MC right?
]Crossdraw was primary to horse soldiers, for the same reason. They were seated, and it's easier to access than strongside.
The front brake and throttle require your right hand and on a reasonably fast bike you can get out of trouble quick with the throttle.
Can the bike move faster than a bullet?
There may be a time and place that if you need the gun, the bike, let alone anything else is not going to be fast enough. If you are carrying strongside, the controls you mention are still in the same place, but you're going to have a harder time drawing [ meaning it's taking longer ].Brownie
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