How is a flare gun not a firearm?

[Number21]

Recently I bought a surplus H&K 26.5mm flare gun and an adapter that allows me to shoot .410 shotgun shells. As far as I know the flare gun itself is not considered a "firearm" until after I insert the adapter. I was able to buy the flare pistol freely over the internet with no dealer or paper work, and it has no serial number. Shipped to me via standard USPS.

That said, how is a flare gun not a "firearm" that has to abide by all the firearms rules? Or for that matter, how is it not a destructive device with more than an inch of barrel?

The ATF defines "firearm" as:
"A any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to fire a projectile by the action of an explosive
B The frame or reciever or any such weapon
C Any firearm muffler or firearm silencer
D Any destructive device

The state of Oregon, where I am, also defines a firearm as:
"A weapon, by whatever name known, which is designed to expel a projectile by the action of powder."

Isn't that exactly what a standard flare does? Fire a projectile by the action of explosive powder?

 

[Vhyrus]

You're trying to make logic out of the illogical. This can only end badly.

 

[Midwest]

Because a flare gun is not capable (without modification) of shooting conventional bullets, or shotgun shells it is not considered a firearm. It is considered a signaling device meant for shooting a flare solely for purposes of distress like when a boat is sinking or if the boat is dead in the water or for similar emergency situations.

I believe in all cases, safety flares are exempt from all firearm regulations and firework prohibitions in all the states because it is intended as an emergency device meant to be used in only an emergency on water and for a boat. I cannot ascertain if there are laws against using a flare as a firework (in states that prohibit fireworks) to circumvent state fireworks laws. That said....

If an adapter is inserted to make it shoot conventional bullets or shells it is considered a firearm because the original intent of the device has changed and it is a firearm. If one changes the configuration to shoot shotgun shells, not only does the person have a firearm...the person also has an destructive device. (Because it shoots shotgun shells and it is a very short shotgun.) I don't think 10 years courtesy of Uncle Sam and a $10,000 fine is worth the trouble.

 

[TurtlePhish]

If the adapter isn't rifled, don't take possession of it... You'll be in constructive possession of an unregistered AOW.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

0. I am not a lawyer, so this posting has no legal weight, but represents the knowledge (or ignorance) of the poster.

1. Individuals who are legal to buy a Title I firearm (conventional rifle, shotgun, or handgun) are legal (federally) to make a Title I firearm for their personal use (not for commerce (resale)).

2. When you insert the singleshot rifled barrel .45Colt/.410 adaptor in the 26.5mm flaregun, you are making a single shot handgun legally under federal law if you meet the conditions in paragraph 1 and any others I am unaware of.

3. There may be local (state, county, city) laws on handguns that go beyond the federal law (such as 1950s "zip gun" laws) which may apply in your jurisdiction, and it is your responsibility to know and to comply with those laws. (Don't do it in DC, Chicago or NYC, fer instance.)

4. If the flare gun accepts and fires only signal cartridges (flares) it is not a firearm as defined under Title I (1968 Gun Control Act GCA) or Title II (1934 National Firearms Act NFA); NYC considers flare guns to be guns if they look like guns, for boat use, NYC legal flare launchers cannot look like guns. Flare gun with the adapter insert becomes a firearm under federal law. With a rifled barrel insert it becomes a Title I handgun. With a smoothbore barrel insert it becomes a Title II AOW (any other concealable weapon not a Title I handgun).

5. When in doubt, write the ATF Firearms Technology Branch for an opinion letter and keep a copy folded in your wallet to cover your assets. That is only half-joking. It will carry more weight than a posting on the internet.

 

[deadin]

I would assume that the same logic is applied to putting a conversion cylinder into a C&B revolver.
The only caveat would be not to try to sell one after you are tired of it.
(at least, don't sell the conversion barrel or cylinder at the same time as you sell the host.)

 

[Quiet]

Signal/pyrotechnic devices are exempt.

Federal laws...

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter—
(3) The term “firearm” means
(A) any weapon (including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive;
(B) the frame or receiver of any such weapon;
(C) any firearm muffler or firearm silencer; or
(D) any destructive device. Such term does not include an antique firearm.
(4) The term “destructive device” means—
(A) any explosive, incendiary, or poison gas—
(i) bomb,
(ii) grenade,
(iii) rocket having a propellant charge of more than four ounces,
(iv) missile having an explosive or incendiary charge of more than one-quarter ounce,
(v) mine, or
(vi) device similar to any of the devices described in the preceding clauses;
(B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and
(C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled.

The term “destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes.

 

[Quiet]

Oregon laws...

Oregon Revised Statue 166.382
(2) As used in this section:
(a) Destructive device does not include any device which is designed primarily or redesigned primarily for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety or similar device.

 

[MrDig]

Keep this quiet dang it, or "they" will ad this to the list for "no sporting purpose".............

 

[mje]

There's an ATF letter that one of the adapter makers quotes in their ads that says the adapter is not, by itself, a firearm. I think that's a bit disingenuous, since as soon as you insert one in a flare gun you've constructed a pistol and you're subject not only to state laws but perhaps to some ATF regs regarding the amount of imported parts allowed in a home built gun. YMMV.

 

[Owen Sparks]

An aquaintance in high school had a 12 GA flare gun. It appeared quite old and he had no flares to go with it. The interesting thing is that it would chamber a modern 12 GA shotshell though no one was brave (or foolish) enough to shoot it. This was not some home made chopped sporting shotgun but a ginuine factory made flare pistol. My guess is that it was probably made before there were any laws restricting short shotgun barrels.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

My uncle told me that when my dad returned to the farm after WWII, one of his "bring backs" was a flare gun that handled 12ga shells. Over the years, it apparently got lost, but uncle said in its day it was awesome.

 

[TurtlePhish]

An aquaintance in high school had a 12 GA flare gun. It appeared quite old and he had no flares to go with it. The interesting thing is that it would chamber a modern 12 GA shotshell though no one was brave (or foolish) enough to shoot it. This was not some home made chopped sporting shotgun but a ginuine factory made flare pistol. My guess is that it was probably made before there were any laws restricting short shotgun barrels.

Any 12ga flare pistol will chamber a 12ga shotshell. It'll also explosively deconstruct as soon as you pull the trigger, more likely than not taking a good chunk of your hand with it.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

We are talking about metal, military grade pistols. aka, "Very Pistols", often made with thick bronze barrels, 1" or 1.1" bore, or the German 26.5mm mostly aluminum versions, not the modern non-weapon orange plastic models (which disintegrate like a plastic handgrenade when fired with a 12ga Aquila minishell; they are not even safe with a .22 short conversion shell intend for use in a shotgun: the plastic cracks).



(The story of my dad's WWII bring back was told with smiles and nods, that indicated to me no one thought it was a good idea to shoot shotgun shells in a flare gun. Flare shells are very low pressure rounds. So even a metal flare gun with a sub caliber adaptor does not appeal to me.)

 

[Number21]

When in doubt, write the ATF Firearms Technology Branch for an opinion letter and keep a copy folded in your wallet to cover your assets.

My adapter did indeed come with a letter from the ATF explaining that it is legal to use. It is rifled, though the rifling is a joke, and only about an inch long.

I haven't fired it yet but the flare pistol is a very heavy duty military surplus unit. The barrel and action are all steel inset into a very heavy plasic grip. The plastic doesn't hold back any pressure from the cartridge. I would think it could handle a 12 gauge shell with the right adapter, though that would be illegal and I wouldn't want to be holding onto it.

Part of me wants to get the right paper work and convert this pistol to 28 gauge smooth bore, I really like it but those .410s are hard to find...

 

[TimeRegained]

Really, it's because the government needs these things to be publicly available for emergency usage and plentifully available.

 

[PedalBiker]

It's just like those .22 cal nail "guns" you can get at Home Depot.

 

[Owen Sparks]

Could some manufacturer produce a modern 12 GA pistol and call it a 'flare gun'?

 

[TurtlePhish]

Could some manufacturer produce a modern 12 GA pistol and call it a 'flare gun'?

Sure, but you'd only legally be able to fire smoke/gas/pyrotechnics out of it unless you registered it as a DD. There are currently produced 37mm "flare" guns that are perfectly capable of firing antipersonnel rounds, but you can't do that without registration.

 

[WardenWolf]

Most flare guns are deliberately underengineered to the extent that they would explode if you attempted to fire a shotgun shell out of them. A few older ones can handle shotgun loads, but I think it would be illegal to produce a NEW one that could. Pretty sure the ATF actually checks for that nowadays, and verifies they cannot handle an actual shotgun shell.

 

[Number21]

Most flare guns are deliberately underengineered to the extent that they would explode if you attempted to fire a shotgun shell out of them. A few older ones can handle shotgun loads, but I think it would be illegal to produce a NEW one that could. Pretty sure the ATF actually checks for that nowadays, and verifies they cannot handle an actual shotgun shell.

Again, we're talking about heavy duty metal military surplus flareguns, NOT those cheap orange plastic things you can get at a marine store. I'm sure those are deliberately underdesigned, and I have seen pictures from the ATF themselvs showing them blown up after a few modified uses. I don't see why somebody couldn't construct and sell a heavy duty metal flare gun, but there is probably a very small market.

I was able to fire my gun today and I love it. Definately strong enough to handle the 3" 4.10 rounds, and not too much kick either. Now I want a 28 guage....

 

[bassdogs]

After reading the posts in this thread, I am left with the question, WHY!? Why does it matter if it is considered a handgun? What do you propose to do with this converted flare gun?

If you plan on using it for SD, you would be a fool. Ditto for HD. Want a handgun buy one. Want a shotgun, buy one. So again why is this an issue?

 

[Number21]

After reading the posts in this thread, I am left with the question, WHY!? Why does it matter if it is considered a handgun? What do you propose to do with this converted flare gun?

If you plan on using it for SD, you would be a fool. Ditto for HD. Want a handgun buy one. Want a shotgun, buy one. So again why is this an issue?

Why does everything always have to be about self defense? Some of us just like to blow stuff up. Do I have your permission to ask questions about that here?

 

[bassdogs]

Well I will explain it this way. You can stick a shell into a piece of pipe and hit the primer with a nail and it will blow up. You can throw one in a really hot fire and it likely will blow up. You can do a lot of things that will make a shotgun shell blow up but almost none of them are safe, accurate, or COOL to have or to shoot.

No its not all about SD or HD or for that matter target shooting or just blowing stuff up. Again I suggest that there is no valid reason to worry about the legality of a flare gun conversion. Here's an idea, take one to the Canadian border and drive thru the crossing and see what the guards say. Good luck with that!

 

[Number21]

Again I suggest that there is no valid reason to worry about the legality of a flare gun conversion. Here's an idea, take one to the Canadian border and drive thru the crossing and see what the guards say. Good luck with that!

If you don't have anything useful to say, just hit your back button. I don't need your permission to make a thread. :banghead: