How many jams are too many?

[andrew17]

I was wondering, how many jams you think are too many out of a new gun? specifically a 1911.

Story: I bought a 1911 at the beginning of Jan. and have taken it to the range twice. The first time, I fired 350 rounds through it and had a single jam. The next time I took it to the range(outdoors this time), I fired 250 rounds throught it and had 3 more jams. So to date the gun has 600 rounds through it and 4 jams.
How many here would be sending it back and how many would just shoot it more?
I would like to withhold the manufacture's name for now to discourage maker bashing but would like to give a little more detail.
The sessions were fired with factory ammo using the factory mags and aftermarket "Top quality" mags and three of the jams occured with the aftermarkets and one occured with the factory mag. For the record, I dont think the problem is the mags but rather, extractor related. They(jams) were failure to extracts resulting in an empty case being lodged longways between the breach and the slide(the part of the slide directly above the chamber) so what do you think?
Thanks.

 

[Feanaro]

If you can't go through two hundred and fifty rounds without a jam, I consider that "unreliable." Three jams in 250 rounds is a little much to me. I would replace the extractor and see if that helped. If not, gunsmith/manufacturer time.

 

[Sean Smith]

I would like to withhold the manufacture's name for now to discourage maker bashing but would like to give a little more detail.

Sounds like somebody DESERVES a bashing, at least for this gun.

They(jams) were failure to extracts resulting in an empty case being lodged longways between the breach and the slide(the part of the slide directly above the chamber) so what do you think?

If I understand your description properly, it actually sounds like a failure to eject, not extract. Pictures of the malfunction would help a diagnosis alot. But the bottom line is, your gun is defective and needs to be repaired. A new 1911 should not have any malfunctions unless it is EXTREMELY dirty, or the ammunition is wildly out of specification. The manufacturer should fix it under warranty.

 

[mete]

Assuming that they were not squib loads it sounds like the extractor is not permitting the case from moving up and to the right. Ther e are things that are done to the extractor to fix this . 600 rounds should be enough to "break in " the pistol. Probably minor tuning of the extractor would do it.

 

[LeonCarr]

One malfunction is too many . I could drop a name, but I won't .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Smoke]

One jam in 2500 is too many unless it is diagnosed as operator error, or other easily fixable mechanical problem.

If it jams and you're not sure why and if it happens again, thats too many.

Smoke

 

[George Hill]

Depends one what the gun is for.

A .22 plinker? One in 20 is fine.
A duty pistol? You better be able to rip off 500 shots without a problem or your duty might be short.

 

[1911Tuner]

Jammin' Jenny

They(jams) were failure to extracts resulting in an empty case being lodged longways between the breach and the slide(the part of the slide directly above the chamber) so what do you think?

It's the extractor. If it's an internal, order a Brown Hardcore, set the tension and go. If it's an internal, it's back to the manufacturer, since those
don't lend themselves readily to any tuning or adjustment.

Luck to ya!

Tuner

 

[andrew17]

If you can't go through two hundred and fifty rounds without a jam, I consider that "unreliable." Three jams in 250 rounds is a little much to me. I would replace the extractor and see if that helped. If not, gunsmith/manufacturer time.

Point taken Thanks.

If I understand your description properly, it actually sounds like a failure to eject, not extract.

Yep. thats what I was trying to say just couldnt get the words right Thanks.

Pictures of the malfunction would help a diagnosis alot. But the bottom line is, your gun is defective and needs to be repaired

I'll see if I can take a pic tonight But I understand, defective.

Sounds like somebody DESERVES a bashing, at least for this gun.

Loud and clear I hear ya

600 rounds should be enough to "break in " the pistol. Probably minor tuning of the extractor would do it.

Thats what I thought too.

One malfunction is too many

My thoughts too, I was just wondering If I was being too picky. After all, it's just for protection how reliable does it need to be (tongue planted firmly in cheek)

One jam in 2500 is too many

Thanks

Depends one what the gun is for

Mostly a range queen but I want to be able to lay it beside my pillow at night so I get your point.

It's the extractor. If it's an internal, order a Brown Hardcore, set the tension and go. If it's an internal, it's back to the manufacturer, since those

I ordered a hardcore extractor and "tension tool"(yeah I know, but I dont have a vice and was feeling overly spendy that day) When it came in, I tried it in the gun before putting any bend in it and the extractor they sent me must be out of spec because the whole extractor was too long. the hook didnt contact the chamber but it was dang close and the back of the extractor didnt fit flush with the back of the slide(stuck out )(the forwardmost hook was way longer that the factory like it had too much "bite"). I tried cycling a few live rounds (VERY carefully) and it would feed em just fine but on the extracting cycle, the nose of the bullet would get caught on the slide when the ejector started to kick the round out.(sorry, if this is clear as mud, I'll try too say it better)
So I happened to be at a gunshow this past weekend(after reading some of Mr Tuner's posts)(BTW the JB/ CLP slurry trick really works!) and asked the guy who has all the gun parts/mags if he had any spring steel extractors. I told him they would probably be millitary. Well, He fishes around in his box and comes up with a couple. Now keep in mind, I cant tell what is spring and what is barstock but, Ya pays ya money and ya takes yer chance I guess.
I get these home and notice that they both have bend in them(obviously used) and are quite a bit snugger to install in the gun. The one thats in the gun right now will hold a shell against the breachface snuggly while the factory one had zero tension and would not but, If I hand cycle a round from the mag this "new" extractor wont kick it out. It (live round-still being careful) starts to kick out but the nose of the round gets hung on the front of the cutout in the slide.
I havent had a chance to try these "new" extractors out at the range yet and at this point was getting a little weary and was thing about boxing it up and sending the gun back.

 

[Sean Smith]

the extractor they sent me must be out of spec because the whole extractor was too long. the hook didnt contact the chamber but it was dang close and the back of the extractor didnt fit flush with the back of the slide

Alternate possibility: the SLIDE is out of spec, not the aftermarket extractor.

 

[ksnecktieman]

Is the slide moving fully to the rear? If the nose of the bullet is hitting, maybe the slide is not traveling far enough for the case to hit the ejector? Can someone that knows .45s tell us?? Will a loaded round extract and eject properly, Or will over all length keep it from ejecting?

If I understood your description, your case is being removed from the chamber when you fire, and the slide returns forward and catches it still pointing to the front? Are the case mouths being hit hard enough to deform them?

 

[Peter M. Eick]

It depends on the price of the gun. I expect more out of my expensive guns. 1 jam in 2000 rounds would really irritate me in one of my Les Baers, but 1 jam in 500 would not bother me at all in my glock. I am not saying that my glock jams at 500 rnds, but it would not bother me much if it did. I remember I had a jam once in one of my sig 210's. I even posted about it because it was such a rare thing. I thought it was neat to actually have one.

Anyway, my opinion is you have a dud gun and send it back to get it fixed (unless say you only paid $150 for it and then I would rack it up as "par for the course".

 

[1911Tuner]

Live Round Failure to Eject

If the pistol is a chopped variant of the 1911 with an extended ejector,
that can happen. It's possible that the hook is a little long, and getting the
case in a bind with the nose of the ejector. Measure the hook length by first measuring the whole end of the ectractor at the hook, then measuring
the bottom just behind the hook, and subtracting. If the hook is over .035 inch, that could be part of the problem. If it's .030-.033 inch long, you may be able to get a little more clearance at the front of the port with some gentle grinding with a Dremel and a stone that closely fits the radius at
the front. Easy does it. Since the empties were extracted and not
ejected, my thoughts are that the hook is too long, and the ejector can't kick the cases loose reliably.

The short pistols....less than Commander length sometimes come with a
unique set of problems that don't respond to the standard "fixes", and have to be approached as individuals.

Sean said that it's possible that the slide is out of spec...and he may have
nailed it down. It's not a common occurrence with the big 3...Colt, Kimber, and Springfield...but it does happen once in a blue moon.

Standin' by...
Tuner

 

[45R]

Try different ammo perhaps and have the extractor checked.

During the 500 round break in period my 1911 choked 3 times out of 250 rounds when I changed ammo. I changed to another manufactor and its been good ever since.

 

[CWatson]

Sounds like you got a Springfield Armory.I had similiar trouble with them sending wrong/defective extractors.They wanted me to send in my slide for machining.No way would I send a slide to a group of people who can not tell what type of extractor they are sending.I put a McCormick extractor in,and no "machining" was needed.CW

 

[tc300mag1]

I want to ask what kind of Ammo My 1911 ans Hk usp 45 like to stove pipe with winchester white box my ruger p-90 wont when i switch to reload all the probs go away.

or also the win clean crap none of my 45's like it had james on all of them

 

[Josey]

OK, I'll ask. Have you got a small, mil-style ejection port? It could simply need the port lowered and flared. The extractor and other suspects may be innocent. I had that problem on my Sprinfield Armory. A Dremel fixed that problem.

 

[dsk]

To me a greater than 1 in 1000 malfunction rate, that isn't caused by the magazine or some other external reason is too much. The ejection port shouldn't be causing the problem, as aside from dinging brass it wasn't an issue with USGI pistols.

 

[WonderNine]

Something sounds wrong. I shoot mostly 9mm, but I have not had a jam in 5,000 rounds that was not magazine related. What ammo are you using in that .45? You said it's a 1911 so I assume it's a .45.

Maybe try some different magazines too. What lube are you using? Make sure you clean the extractor, breachface, chamber and everything else good....

 

[andrew17]

Alternate possibility: the SLIDE is out of spec, not the aftermarket extractor.

I was kinda hopeing for the lesser of the two evils. The two gunshow extractors fit normally though.

Is the slide moving fully to the rear? If the nose of the bullet is hitting, maybe the slide is not traveling far enough for the case to hit the ejector? Can someone that knows .45s tell us?? Will a loaded round extract and eject properly, Or will over all length keep it from ejecting?

With the Brown extractor and the gunshow extractors, a live round, when hand cycled gets it's nose cought on the chamber wall(top of the chamber)
I think I missspoke before when I described it as getting cought on the slide. I tried to manually recreate the jam last light for some pictures and discovered my mistake. The case mouth is deformed when it hits the top of the chamber. Got some pics to post that maybe will make it more clear.

It depends on the price of the gun. I expect more out of my expensive guns. 1 jam in 2000 rounds would really irritate me in one of my Les Baers, but 1 jam in 500 would not bother me at all in my glock.

I wanted a step up from my last 1911 so I consider this one in the midpriced range. It's not an entry level but its not a baer either. I've seen em go from 6 to 800 bucks.

Anyway, my opinion is you have a dud gun and send it back to get it fixed

Loud and clear. Thanks Peter.

If the pistol is a chopped variant of the 1911 with an extended ejector,

I should have been more specific in my "more details" sorry. its a five inch model that has a lowered ejection port. .45 acp

Measure the hook length by first measuring the whole end of the ectractor at the hook

Thank you sir, I'll do a side by side caliper comparison tonight.
Previously, I layed the stock extractor beside the brown and inserted the firing pin retaining plate into the slot on both of them at once and this is where I noticed the extra length on the hard core along with installing it and seeing it not fit flush. I'll report back on the measurements I take tonight. Thanks.

Try different ammo perhaps and have the extractor checked.

Thanks.

I put a McCormick extractor in,and no "machining" was needed.CW

I'm hoping that I just "lucked up" and got a bad extractor and the gun wont require machining but I'm getting an afully lot of replys telling me to send it at this point.

I want to ask what kind of Ammo

The first range session consisted of winchester value-pak, UMC and one box of seller & bellot. The second session I was using all UMC.
I was trying to break this gun in with all factory ammo to really get a feel for how reliable it was going to be before I started feeding it my junky wheel weight reloads.

Have you got a small, mil-style ejection port

The ejection port is lowered and flared.

To me a greater than 1 in 1000 malfunction rate, that isn't caused by the magazine or some other external reason is too much.

Thank you

Something sounds wrong. I shoot mostly 9mm, but I have not had a jam in 5,000 rounds that was not magazine related. What ammo are you using in that .45? You said it's a 1911 so I assume it's a .45.

Yes sir, it's a .45 and I've been using win-value pak, Umc, and one box of Seller&belot so far.
The first lube was hoppes I think (orange plastic bottle) the second range session I think I was using CLP.
I've been shooting the factory mags as well as some wilson mags as well.

 

[andrew17]

This is what the jams look like. (I'm using a different gun to protect the guilty)

 

[andrew17]

This is what the gun does with the aftermarket extractor installed and hand cycled. I havent gotten to try it with live fire yet. I thought I might be "short shucking" the slide but I tried it again last night using quite a bit of forearm to cycle it to make sure.
Edited to add: these have got to be some of the worst pictures I've ever taken. Sorry.

 

[antediluvianist]

Ya wanna sleep well?

With all due respect to you 1911 owners out there (I used to own one too) , jams are to be expected in the 1911. It's only a question of the frequency. Sure, you can cut it down to 1 in a thousand, but that takes a lot of effort and adjustments and maybe smithing that other guns don't need.

Since you clearly value reliability highly, consider another kind of pistol, or a revolver. The word "Glock" is heresy but hey, they are reliable as hell. Or get a Smith&Wesson 625 , if you want to stick with the excellent .45acp cartridge, or a 686. Then sleep well.

 

[1911Tuner]

Aha!

Andrew, the first picture indicates that your extractor is clocking, and it
will do this little trick with correct tension. If it happens on the last round only, that's your bug.

The second picture indicates that the extractor hook is too long, and is causing a bind between the tip of the hook and the nose of the ejector
when the ejector tries to twist it sideways. The hook won't let go of it
because it's digging into the inside of the case rim at the junction of the
rim and extractor groove.

antediluvianist...*coff coff bull*s*hitcoff coff*

Sounds like your pistol needed a bit of tweakin'. I've got some old
Gi pistols of various manufacture, and two early production Colt 1991s
that won't average a malfunction every 25,000 rounds, and I shoot mainly
reloaded ammo with home-cast bullets. On these range beaters, I field-strip and clean every 2500 rounds or so, and put a drop of oil in the rails
while they cool...about every 100-150 rounds, depending on how fast I
heat'em up.

The single biggest cause of malfunctions with the 1911 pistol is the magazine, and 95% of those are due to weak or fatigued springs.
Most factory-supplied magazines need stronger springs. Guys who
go buy 5-dollar, no-name gunshow magazines to save a few bucks and
blame the gun for the stoppages are barking up the wrong tree...and
FWIW, Wilson 47Ds ain't the end all, be all in magazine reliability.
I can't remember how many "pukin' pistols" that I've "fixed" by handing the
disgusted owner one of my magazines and setting his extractor tension.
500 rounds later, he is completely mystified. Get yourself a Hallock's
book and 3 Metalform 7-round magazines. Set the follower angle to the template in the book. Order a 3-pack of Wolff 11-pound magazine springs
for a 7-round mag. Replace the factory springs, and you'll go broke trying
to get the pistol to jam, assuming a decent gun. You MAY have to spred the slidelock shelf on the follower to get 100% slidelock, but that's about it.

The second biggest problem is trash extractors that save a buck per gun.
Get a good extractor and set it up correctly. The third most-often cause
is installing a heavy recoil spring to "Protect the Frame". This changes the slide speed and timing. Get a 15 or 16-pound recoil spring for a GM, and
about 17 for a Commander, a good extractor correctly adjusted, and
get good magazines with good springs. You'll go broke before you'll
have more than one stoppage every 2500 rounds or beyond.

My message is, as it has always been..."It's usually somethin' simple."

Cheers!

 

[andrew17]

Andrew, the first picture indicates that your extractor is clocking, and it will do this little trick with correct tension. If it happens on the last round only, that's your bug

So the extractor is turning in the extractor "hole" ? Caused by poor fit between the firing pin retaining plate?
its been happening mostly in the middle of a mag full.

The second picture indicates that the extractor hook is too long, and is causing a bind between the tip of the hook and the nose of the ejector when the ejector tries to twist it sideways. The hook won't let go of it
because it's digging into the inside of the case rim at the junction of the
rim and extractor groove.

That makes sense. Is it possible to shorten the hook without damaging the flat of the hook? If you get what I'm trying to say?

The single biggest cause of malfunctions with the 1911 pistol is the magazine, and 95% of those are due to weak or fatigued springs.

I get what yer sayin. The factory mags have quite a bit stronger spring that the wilsons do.

Get yourself a Hallock's book and 3 Metalform 7-round magazines. Set the follower angle to the template in the book. Order a 3-pack of Wolff 11-pound magazine springs
for a 7-round mag. Replace the factory springs, and you'll go broke trying
to get the pistol to jam, assuming a decent gun. You MAY have to spred the slidelock shelf on the follower to get 100% slidelock, but that's about it.

Where can hallock's book be had if you dont mind me asking?

The second biggest problem is trash extractors that save a buck per gun

Loud and clear Sir, loud and clear.
the funny thing is (if not ironic) is that the gun I used for the pictures is a Norinco that has had many thousands of rounds without one single jam.
Just for giggles, last night I took the extractor out of it to give it a look (the gun doesnt belong to me) and to call this extractor crude would be being Very nicebut ithas thr right ammount of tension to hold the shell against the breach face while extracting the darn thing just works.

Ihave to admit that I've sunk a little too much money into extra wilson mags at this point and may have to wait a while before getting some metalforms. I am tempted to give the manufacture a crack at this gun before I try again. Also give me some time to save for another extractor/ metalforms. Not crying poverty here but still trying to decide whats my best option wether it be tinker with it myself some more or let the maker have at least one shot at it.
Are you for hire Sir?