How many PDs are buying full-auto weapons? Why?

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milo z

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Was browsing NFA items around the web, looking at 'dealer sample' laws, demo letters and so on.

Which got me wondering - are there any PDs actually purchasing full-auto firearms? Why? I guess I'm just missing where a PD could justify using them - SWAT raids, stand-offs, etc. - none appear to merit their use in my book.

Or are the demo letters and so on really just a you-scratch-my-back situation for dealers who want to get their hands on firearms they couldn't otherwise purchase? In return the department gets a discount on something they actually use, etc.
 
After the LA shootout all those years back, i think it's justifiable that some of the larger, more urban municipalities could see the need for full auto weapons. Granted they're rare in the US but some well funded/connected BG's can get them so why shouldn't LEO be able to play on an even field?

Again, one of those "Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it" situations.
 
Ha, not my department. We can't even use the old rusty 870s the main office has.

My dealer told me that the Greenville County SD has two 249s they got through him. Kershaw County has 8 M14s they are trying to get rid of but can't go to a dealer because of some agreement with the government that was made when they were purchased. They can only go to other LE agencies or be destroyed. They paid somewhere in the neighborhood of $8 each for them. They can't even be parted out :rolleyes:
 
We can get full-auto weapons if we wanted, however I think the only guys who need and or get them are the high speed, low drag guys (SWAT, SERT, etc).

Everyone else uses the semi-auto stuff.

Any surplus weapons purchased from the government under the prorgram must be kept by the department or returned to the surplus arsenal.
 
Greenville County SD has two 249
OK, I can kinda understand SWAT using full auto sub-guns, maybe even an M4. But if the police are in a situation that requires two M249s, something is Terribly Wrong. As in, "maybe we should call the National Guard" wrong. If you have a riot or mob type situation, it seems like tear gas is a better choice. The police mowing down throngs of people is just scary.
 
My local department has a full auto P90 and a full auto M4, and I think its just because they can. Officers are equipped with semi autos, and they only play with the FA's at the range. They said they never have and probably never would deploy them. Sounds like they are just tax dollars being spent on toys....
 
Do remember, to the PD's, there isn't a substantial price difference in full v. semi auto. They aren't subject to the price inflation of old guns, so its at least not too ridiculious waste of tax money.

That said, I can't imagine 249's are cheap, let alone two, let alone the fact that I think that unleashing a 249 anywhere police have jurisdiction is probably a horrible idea, regardless of what the BG has.
 
My department is strictly semi-auto. County issues full-auto MP-5s to their SWAT team.

Have to ask why any department would want 249s. Hey I was issued a 249 in the Army, qualified several times, went through many an FTX and two rotations at Ft. Polk with it. It's a great light machine gun/automatic rifle, but a police weapon?
 
Select fire weapons are no more expensive than semi auto to make (in fact full auto only open bolt designs are much cheaper). So since they do not need to go through the NFA market, the price difference is negligable. The only reason they would cost more is because the dealer or manufacturer decides to charge more becuase they think they can.

That said the liability is great.

After the LA shootout all those years back
Well LA has a lot of shootouts, but I assume you mean the body armor clad North Hollywood shootout. That makes no case for full auto whatsoever. What it showed is firearms readily available that can defeat body armor were necessary.
They have several rifles from .308-.50BMG in bolt action and semi auto that solve that problem better than any full auto MP5 firing 9mm (or even full auto .223)
Police deal with standoffs with multiple officers, and the barrage of fire that results resembles full auto anyways.

Watch this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=akvtGcH_djs
The guy is taunting police, turns out he is only armed with a flip flop. The resulting number of shots (at about 3 minutes into the video) and random spray of the shots make you think a machinegun was used. They fired 81 shots in 4-5 seconds that is a rate of fire of 972-1215 rounds per minute. Just imagine if they actualy were armed with full auto.
Police don't need full auto weaponry. They need precision and already have superior numbers in armed standoffs.
 
I know toledo swat has some select fire mp5s at the least.

police shouldn't be allowed to purchase something as outrageous as a 249 though. I would think that the sheer volume of fire could produce some serious collateral damage...
 
PD's are getting these from the Military. When they come back from duty they are sent to the dept. for use. I just had this disscussion with the Police Chief last weekend. They are to be used in semi mode but can be switched to full auto in a major crisis.
 
Police Departments should have them just as much as the civilians should too.

You guys are fun to watch; on one hand criticizing the government for not allowing you own weapons or be "prepared for anything" with NFA stuff, yet not wanting a police department who will have to deal with more SHTF situations then you will in your life time should not. What a joke.
 
A friend of mine is a LEO for a smaller town in West Virginia. They have several M16s, MP5s and M14s... Shooting at their police range is a pretty good time!
 
Im a cop in Upstate n New York and we started issuing semi AR-15's last year. The cheif was wondering why we didn't get full auto!?! Not necessary but 2 or 3 round burst would have been nice
 
Police Departments should have them just as much as the civilians should too.

You guys are fun to watch; on one hand criticizing the government for not allowing you own weapons or be "prepared for anything" with NFA stuff, yet not wanting a police department who will have to deal with more SHTF situations then you will in your life time should not. What a joke.
Well that is just it. They get special privelidges, and those privilidges are not even logicly warranted.
Considering that police will usualy have superior numbers in a standoff, and that a home owner will often be outnumbered during a home invasion by criminals, there is in fact better argument for them in civilian hands than in police hands. So if they are so bad for civilians that no new guns can enter the market, and they are heavily restricted and controlled to the point of being put intentionaly out of reach of the average civilian, then the police do not need special privilidges.

So my point is that if they are too dangerous for civilians then they are by the same logic even more dangerous and unnecessary for police who outnumber the suspect.
Furthermore police are public servants, and our rights as citizens are governed by the constitution, while the tools available to police are governed by policies we choose for those who choose to be employed by the public. So they are apples and oranges.
 
Police Departments should have them just as much as the civilians should too.
That I disagree with completely. I should have access to currently-NFA items I do not need to show a cause to spend my money and because my uses are not entirely (or primarily) defensive.
The police are, on the other hand, public servants spending our money - as such, they need to show good reason for having (and using) full-auto weapons, ie suggestion of situations in which the police need that capability and can safely use it.

I'm inclined to agree with zoogster that there aren't many situations - if any - where such use would be justified (or, for that matter, situations where the defensive use by civilians would be justified - but that, again, isn't inherent in our right, need or desire to own them).
 
I cannot personally see any situation where fully automatic fire would be merited by law enforcement personal, outside of the movies.

Maybe and this is a BIG maybe, it might be warranted for some high risk SWAT entry but even then I cannot imagine it being better or more warranted then a semi auto .223.

Full auto is for firing and maneuvering, suppressing or spraying a hidden target in hopes of getting hits.......nothing that I can ever see law enforcement having a need for.

My two cents.
 
Zoogster, I watched the video you linked... PDs definatly shouldn't have full auto weapons when they can't even keep from shooting their own police dog with semi autos!!! They shot their own dog!!! That was horrible. :eek:
 
I know a few deputies in Greenville County. None of them had any idea the department had the 249s until I mentioned it. Like I said, that info came from the dealer that I get my NFA stuff through. He's based in Greenville and has several Form 5 guns, including the UMP .45 and G36 I had the pleasure of shooting a few weeks ago :cool:
 
You guys are fun to watch; on one hand criticizing the government for not allowing you own weapons or be "prepared for anything" with NFA stuff, yet not wanting a police department who will have to deal with more SHTF situations then you will in your life time should not. What a joke.

Nope. The way I see it, if civilians can't own anythign newer than a 1986 firearm, there aren't any out there, so there is no need for police to own new guns. We all follow the same rules, we are all equally matched.
 
The police dept. where I used to live issued their SWAT team brand new fully automatic mp-5's... but the SWAT uniforms didn't say "police" on the front, because custom embroidery just wasn't in the budget:scrutiny:

So, anyway, they hand an mp-5 to one officer with known rage :fire: issues (previously beat on a state trooper's desk with an aluminum bat), and another officer on the team had prior marijuana and DWI convictions (as a juvenile in another state, and he lied on his application).

The night of the big raid comes, they smash a window in a young couple's rental home, and toss a flash-bang grenade inside... and it lands right next to the suspect, who was sitting on his extremely flammable sofa. The suspect runs, and just as he reached the staircase he was shot multiple times with an mp-5 on full auto (by the officer with rage issues). The officer did shout an order to "stop" before firing, but the suspect ear drums may have been ruptured by the flash-bang device which exploded only 3 feet away. An officer entering through the door on the other side of the home tripped over his own shoe laces (I'm not kidding) and the officer behind him, thinking his partner was shot, opens fire with his pistol... although he later admitted he had no idea where the suspect was.:eek:

By this time the entire living room is on fire. The suspects fiance was upstairs, hiding from what she described as "ninjas" (remember, they couldn't afford to write "police" on their all-black uniforms). When the smoke became unbearable, she opened a window and cried for help. As soon as she was pulled from the burning building she was arrested, even though she was not a suspect, nor was a warrant issued for her arrest. She was later interrogated for 12 hours by the same officers who participated in the raid which resulted in her fiance's death.

Remember, the house is now on fire! Pity none of the officers remembered the fire extinguisher that the manufacturer of the flash-bang grenade strongly recommends. They call in the fire department, but refuse to let them into the flaming building untill they have "secured the scene," which apparently means standing around and watching it burn for ten minutes.

A later investigation revealed a 5 shot revolver on the floor near the suspect's body... but, the revolver had sweatshirt material melted to it in the fire, and the suspect was known to have wrapped it in a sweatshirt and kept it in a bookcase near where his body was found. A cache of ammunition... actually, a styrofoam block of .38 SPL... was found at the top of the stairs. The fire marshall didn't recall seeing it in his investigation, and thought it was strange that the styrofoam didn't even melt when the floor beneath it was charred. Oh yeah, they also found enough marijuana for 5 or 6 joints.

The result? The city was $ued for million$ and million$ of dollar$... and the officer shooting the sub-machinegun asks his supervisor if the whole team will get a commendation, and a special medal to wear on their uniforms. The suspect is dead, the crime scene is on fire, a bystander is falsely arrested, another officer shooting wildly at a target he can't see... and someone has the cajones to ask for a medal? :barf:

I don't know if full-auto firearms have a place in civilian law enforcement, or if they are really better kept as implements of war... but they surely have no place in the hands of the Keystone Kops! :banghead:
 
The police mowing down throngs of people is just scary.

There's a time and a place for that. The LA Riots would have been over quicker, and would have posed less danger to innocent people.

However, there's a difference between full autos in every cop car (which seems to be more and more common around here) and having some available for extreme situations. The campus cops in San Diego have AR's and 870s in every car between the front seats. I don't know if they're full-auto M4's, or M4geries, but they have 30 rounders for sure, and remember in CA a civilian isn't allowed to buy a semiauto one either, at least one like the cops have, and civilians can't buy a mag over 10 rounds, eiher.

If every campus cop needs one to hand out noise violations and tickets for underage drinking, then civilians must need them too.
 
In addition to obtaining FA weapons, the agencys that I am familiar with are also obtaining armored vehicles. They must be expecting something big to happen.
 
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