How much can you modify a NFA machinegun?

[jlbraun]

First: "Hi, Agent Schmuckatelli!" I have no intention of making any modifications to any machineguns, nor do I own any.

I was just hearing about some kerfuffle about someone taking a cheap NFA registered weapon like a MAC and putting the serial number plate on a BAR or something, making the weapon appear to be on the NFA registry. They got busted.

I have also heard of making an attachment for an unmodified MAC reciever that would make it into a belt-fed M60. They also got busted. Huh?

So what can you do to the gun, then? If the gun is simultaneously the reciever and more than the reciever, where's the line? Why can you make an M16 into a belt-fed weapon but not make a MAC into one?

Change the caliber? Change the location of the ejection port? Make it belt-fed?

What can and can't you do to a machinegun that's on the NFA registry?

 

[PTK]

Basically, it's entirely up to the BATFE what's ok and what isn't. They decide what counts as "substantially modified".

 

[freakshow10mm]

Caliber change is OK but you need to notify the NFA branch. Belt fed might be OK too, again notify and definitely ask before you do anything. Location of ejection port and such is risky territory. I don't know about that but I wouldn't mess with it.

Besides caliber change, such as putting a different caliber upper on it, I don't think modifying a receiver is allowed much.

 

[2E8B]

OK, to toss another question out there, what about DIAS? What limitations are applied to that? Theoretically, it IS the machine gun, and can be transfered from receiver to receiver. Can you build another completely different type of gun around it and be kosher? What about a "lightening link"?

If BATFE is making rulings about such things, one would hope they would be consistent, rather than arbitrarily ruling as they seem to be currently.

 

[jwr_747]

DIAS's are real thin ice. in spite of all the "legal to buy,pre ban,ok by the ATF" hoopla that went on a few years back,I don't know of any way to prove when a DIAS was made. jwr

 

[2E8B]

DIAS's are real thin ice. in spite of all the "legal to buy,pre ban,ok by the ATF" hoopla that went on a few years back,I don't know of any way to prove when a DIAS was made. jwr

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the serial number engraved on the RDIAS, and the accompanying NFA registration papers alleviate that concern?

 

[JesseL]

There are legal, expensive, transferable, NFA registered drop-in-auto-sears out there (not the ones for sale in the backs of magazines).

 

[Bubbles]

I was just hearing about some kerfuffle about someone taking a cheap NFA registered weapon like a MAC and putting the serial number plate on a BAR or something, making the weapon appear to be on the NFA registry. They got busted.

THR Thread

Subguns.com Thread

No, you can not cut out the serial number from a relatively inexpensive MAC and build it into a BAR, then turn around and sell it for 3-4 times what you paid for it, unless you want to 1) go to jail, and 2) end up owing a lot of really ticked off former machine gun owners a lot of money.

So what can you do to the gun, then? If the gun is simultaneously the reciever and more than the reciever, where's the line? Why can you make an M16 into a belt-fed weapon but not make a MAC into one?

Because the receiver is the registered part. An AR15/M16 belt-fed upper like an Ares Shrike is just that, an upper. Uppers are not tracked.

 

[jlbraun]

Because the receiver is the registered part. An AR15/M16 belt-fed upper like an Ares Shrike is just that, an upper. Uppers are not tracked.

Correct. But why did the guys that tried to use a registered MAC-10 as the trigger for an M60 get busted?

 

[CDignition]

You can also run short barrels on registered MG without an extra stamp.. a can(Suppressor) will require its own stamp tho.

 

[Bubbles]

But why did the guys that tried to use a registered MAC-10 as the trigger for an M60 get busted?

The MAC wasn't just the trigger. The metal containing just the S/N was cut out of the MAC, the MAC receiver was trashed, and the S/N welded on to the new-manufacture (as in, post '86 manufacture), higher-priced gun.

Repairing a receiver is ok. Cutting just the S/N out of a MAC and welding it onto something like an M2 or M60 is not going to fly. Otherwise, there wouldn't be a whole lot of MAC's left in the NFRTR by now.

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Please correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn't the serial number engraved on the RDIAS, and the accompanying NFA registration papers alleviate that concern?

Yes. The DIAS for $200 in the back of a magazine, not ok (if you own an AR type weapon). The one for $13,000 with serial number on a form 4, ok. Those numbers are expensive!

 

[jlbraun]

But why did the guys that tried to use a registered MAC-10 as the trigger for an M60 get busted?

No, this was different. You field stripped the MAC down to just the auto-sear and trigger pack and slotted it into a hybrid M60 upper.

 

[Ian]

Bubbles, I think what he is talking about are some of the upper assemblies people (like Len Savage, for example) made to utilize intact Mac receivers and FCGs in belt-fed rifles (RPD clones, for example). IIRC, the ATF approved some and denied others, without a whole lot of apparent reason.

Yeah, a search turned up this thread and pic:

http://www.ak47.net/lite/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=243390

 

[Jim K]

I was told by BATFE (for what that is worth) than you can change anything without an OK except what is on the Form 4. If you change caliber or barrel length, you need permission as they have to change the registry data.

Seems to make sense.

Jim

 

[jlbraun]

Bubbles, I think what he is talking about are some of the upper assemblies people (like Len Savage, for example) made to utilize intact Mac receivers and FCGs in belt-fed rifles (RPD clones, for example). IIRC, the ATF approved some and denied others, without a whole lot of apparent reason.

Yeah, a search turned up this thread and pic:

http://www.ak47.net/lite/topic.html?b=6&f=17&t=243390

Yup, that's the one.

 

[Prince Yamato]

So, could one safely say, pretty much anything you can do to a rifle or sbr, you can do to a machinegun, but to be on the safe side, notify the ATF if you change calibers?

 

[DoubleTapDrew]

Notify them if any of the boxes on the form 4 do not match the current condition of the gun. I think it's fairly common to put many different calibers and barrel lengths in the boxes for SBRs and MGs, especially for things easily changed like AR-15s, so you can play with different uppers on it without notifying them each time.

 

[.cheese.]

First: "Hi, Agent Schmuckatelli!" I have no intention of making any modifications to any machineguns, nor do I own any.

This is Agent Schmuckatelli, we have you surrounded. The noise you hear is 3 black helicopters above your house.

Give up and surrender.