Many people believe a used pistol or another firearm might be better at this time because a corrupt government wouldn't be able to track down the original owner. Now buy a new gun and what personal information is kept on file and for how long?
How much info is on file with a new gun purchase?
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Alex Clayton
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This is a too each his own kind of thing. Now that the Feds and in many places even State and Local Government all are in on the checks? There is no way to know the truth. There is "policy" but don't make me laugh thinking they follow that. To me if they ever wanted to take the guns they sure as hell know where they are if they are bought from a Dealer. Many places like mine, no longer allow legal buying without using a dealer. Bottom line few who have cutey bumper stickers about my cold dead hands and such would follow through. If they ever really want to take something all they have to do is make it illegal. Make an example out of a few and most will go along. So to me? If I want something I buy it. Gun owners keep allowing and even helping the new laws along. So unless that changes nothing is going to really help. The few who will keep something illegal are for the most part left alone until they start telling everyone they have it 
What benefit would that provide?
They can easily track down the original owner, ... I'm not sure you said what you meant. It might take them a day or two to get to you but they will unless you paid cash and didn't provide any Id to the seller. I'm pretty sure you won't want to go that route.
George P
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Why not? It is perfectly legal at this time where I live to do cash FTF sales; I have several where there is no trace to me and they will stay that way.
For the last 52 years records have been kept by gun dealers for the sale of every gun in their inventory. At a minimum, every new gun sold since then had a record made of that initial purchase. How many of those records (4473) still exist is unknown (though they are supposed to kept indefinitely by the dealers and be turned in to the BATF when a business is closed).
Any private transfers would have no official record unless the purchaser filled out a 4473 for a background check or the transfer was recorded by the dealer in compliance with a local law, in which case dealer record retention is required as in the above.
The more time that has passed since the last dealer sale of a firearm, the less up-to-date any records would be. Untold thousands of firearms have been sold privately and gifted (legally) over the years with no official records. And on top of that are all the illegal transfers that have occurred (knowingly or unknowingly).
It's easy to see how attempts to recover firearms that are outlawed could become a nasty business.
Any private transfers would have no official record unless the purchaser filled out a 4473 for a background check or the transfer was recorded by the dealer in compliance with a local law, in which case dealer record retention is required as in the above.
The more time that has passed since the last dealer sale of a firearm, the less up-to-date any records would be. Untold thousands of firearms have been sold privately and gifted (legally) over the years with no official records. And on top of that are all the illegal transfers that have occurred (knowingly or unknowingly).
It's easy to see how attempts to recover firearms that are outlawed could become a nasty business.
How do you know if the firearms were stolen or used in a felony ?
Speedo66
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If guns are banned, where do you get to enjoy the ones you held onto?
Any sound of a shot could bring the authorities down on you.
Every time you make a purchase of a firearm from a dealer, they have to call it in to the Feds for the OK. How hard would it be to match up the time and date of that call to the dealer who keeps the paper work and figure out what that person bought?
Any sound of a shot could bring the authorities down on you.
Every time you make a purchase of a firearm from a dealer, they have to call it in to the Feds for the OK. How hard would it be to match up the time and date of that call to the dealer who keeps the paper work and figure out what that person bought?
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lsudave
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I live in a state where FTF is legal, and occurs.
Well, I guess you don't. A lot of these sales occurs between people who know of each other. Most of the rest happen as a result of people responding to a classified ad or post.
Well, if you know each other then you have been Id'd and FTF doesn't really matter as far as tracking the firearm. If you don't know them then IMHO you will just be trading one type of risk for another. I myself always get a receipt even with close friends.
wiscoaster
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If you think it's bad now, wait until they require ammunition to be micro-stamped so that every single bullet can be traced:
116th Congress House Bill H.R.719 - the "MICRO Act" - https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/719/
"MICRO" is the acronym for Make Identifiable Criminal Rounds Obvious
Sure, it's dead now, but you can bet it will be back next year.
116th Congress House Bill H.R.719 - the "MICRO Act" - https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/719/
"MICRO" is the acronym for Make Identifiable Criminal Rounds Obvious
Sure, it's dead now, but you can bet it will be back next year.
old lady new shooter
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In Arizona and many other states (IIRC, 22), dealers are not required to run a background check on a buyer with a valid concealed carry permit. The 4473 has to be filled out, but the carry permit serves as the background check.
Speedo66
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Thanks, now I remember. I suffer from CRAFT. Can't Remember A F'ing Thing. lol
lsudave
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La falls into that. I'm curious about the 4473, and how much protection there is over that information. The FFL has to keep them a minimum of 20 years, and must submit them to the ATF if they go out of business.
Laws prevent compiling them into a database. The question is, how deeply do you trust the government to follow the law? Not just the ATF, but other agencies such as the NSA? Call me a cynic, but I'm a bit skeptical about there being absolute compliance at every agency. Somewhere, I strongly suspect there's at least the outlines in place. It will never see the light of day as long as we're allowed to keep ownership, but if/when we lose that right, I believe it surfaces within 6 months.
Regarding FTF sales, "usage in a felony" etc, you do understand you can also buy antique guns (pre-1898) completely without check in lots of states? "Oh, those are useless antiques": I would contend that an Argentine Mauser, the several Mosin Nagants that are that old, and the Winchester 92's that meet that, are quite functional firearms. Do I know if they're stolen, or have been used in a crime? No... and I don't sit up at night worrying about that.
Also regarding guns used in crimes... I own a few surplus firearms. I strongly suspect several were used to commit violent acts. That also doesn't dissuade me from owning them. Are you talking about dealing with potential evidence? If that's the case, a whole lot of yard sales etc could potentially be moving stolen property; nobody's verifying that stuff either. I guess I just don't feel the need to have a governmental involvement and screening of every aspect of my life, since I'm not myself engaging in illegal activities. Some common sense gets applied- I don't buy a handgun from some guy on the street corner out of his trunk. I have zero qualms about buying one from a guy who posts on a local firearm forum, who says he wants to sell a lever gun because he no longer uses it; or someone who wants to sell his RIA 1911 so he can apply those funds to getting a Colt, and would rather get "market value" from me instead of what the pawn shop offers him. He can make more, and still sell it to me for less than I would pay them.
old lady new shooter
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Join the club.
old lady new shooter
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My understanding is that the 4473 only says "handgun" or "long gun", maybe one of our FFL members can verify.
George P
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Because I know the people I bought them from
Others were WWII bring backs from folks long dead
George P
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No need for receipts - that creates a paper trail; the whole point of FTF cash sales is no paper trail of any kind.
and what will you say when the FBI comes to you and asks you why you used it in a crime ? will you tell them who you sold it to ?
if so, then they can trace it ... see thread title.
George P
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HUH/ Why I used it in a crime? WTH are you talking about?
Loosen the tinfoil hat
The thread is about whether they can trace a firearm. The OP thinks that possession of a firearm can be hidden.
So, let's say they are looking to see who owns a particular firearm.
They trace it to you.
From there it could be any reason ...
- "Hey, this is now an FFA item, turn it in or pay the tax"
- "Hey, we found this at a crime scene, why did you do it ?"
Whatever the reason, are you willing to take the fall for "a guy you know" or will you keep the tracing going ?
was that explanation simple enough for you to understand ?
Speedo66
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I believe he's saying if they trace a gun to its last registered owner, it could be you, even though you've sold it off previously. Now they would want to know who you sold it to to take the pressure off of you.
Speedo66
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That's why you should only buy peace loving Swedish or Swiss arms. lol
Ironic that they're both considered some of the best military bolt actions.
Arkansas Paul
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Any time there is a mass shooting, they always know where the guy purchased his gun within a few days, if not the same day.
That should tell you all you need to know about how much info they have and how they can use it.
As far as the argument on face to face sales, it's perfectly legal in most jurisdictions.
As far as the gun later being used in a crime, what are they going to do when you sold the gun legally? Yes they could ask you some questions I suppose, but that's pretty much it.
I've bought and sold guns on a handshake more than once.
In fact, if I was buying a handgun from an individual and he wanted a copy of my info, DL, CHL etc. I would not go through with the sale.
It's not required. I follow the law and always will, but I don't go beyond what it requires.
I would let someone see my CHL if it gave them peace of mind about making the sale, but they're not copying down my information. Getting into legal trouble for a perfectly legal firearms transaction is a pipe dream. Identity theft on the other hand, is not. So an average Joe I know nothing about isn't getting any of my personal information if I can help it.
That should tell you all you need to know about how much info they have and how they can use it.
As far as the argument on face to face sales, it's perfectly legal in most jurisdictions.
As far as the gun later being used in a crime, what are they going to do when you sold the gun legally? Yes they could ask you some questions I suppose, but that's pretty much it.
I've bought and sold guns on a handshake more than once.
In fact, if I was buying a handgun from an individual and he wanted a copy of my info, DL, CHL etc. I would not go through with the sale.
It's not required. I follow the law and always will, but I don't go beyond what it requires.
I would let someone see my CHL if it gave them peace of mind about making the sale, but they're not copying down my information. Getting into legal trouble for a perfectly legal firearms transaction is a pipe dream. Identity theft on the other hand, is not. So an average Joe I know nothing about isn't getting any of my personal information if I can help it.
There is also the moment when you have to surrender your firearm and you find out it was stolen or used in a felony.
Just for example you are in a traffic accident while carrying it.
"Why did you steal it ?"
Again, are you going to take the fall for "a guy you know" .?
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