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How not to talk to the police.

Discussion in 'Legal' started by thefish, Nov 27, 2012.

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  1. thefish

    thefish Member

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  2. cassandrasdaddy

    cassandrasdaddy Member

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    hes toast unless he can pull off insanity defense
     
  3. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    I think the thread is mis-titled. This isn't really about what he said to the police, although that will certainly hurt his legal defense. It's far more about the way he acted, a way we cannot support.

    Please, defend yourself certainly, but shoot to put a stop to the threat, not to kill. If your stopping kills, so be it. But never, ever, ever act like this guy.

    As gun owners, we must be prepared to address the antis over things like this. We must support his right to self defense but condemn his escalation into execution.
     
  4. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator

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    I hope he likes orange.
     
  5. NavyLCDR

    NavyLCDR member

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    Looks like the Oklahoma pharmacist is going to get a cellmate.
     
  6. MagnumDweeb

    MagnumDweeb Member

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    The guy performed execution shots. That's frigging ridiculous. This guy is a nut, no two ways about it. There's defending yourself and then there's murdering somebody. Shooting somebody as they lay still on the floor, shooting somebody with the intent of killing them while they lay helpless and wounded. That's not self-defense.

    You shoot in self-defense and the person dies as a result that is one thing. You disable the person and then shoot them further that's a whole 'nother situation.

    Look if someone breaks into my house and I shoot them, I'm not going to rush to call an ambulance (probably because i'll be in the fetal position soiling myself, and I'll be afraid there might be more intruders), but I'm not going to wait an entire day.

    The Pro-RKBA crowd needs to shun this guy. He's scum and makes us all look bad. Hopefully the prosecutor gets this guy to protect the self-defense laws and show the public that the self-defense laws don't allow this kind of absurd and horrific conduct.

    When the first kid went down, he should have backed away from the staircase. When the other teenager saw the downed person they might have left, or they might have gone to the aid of the downed person. If she then got shot and tumbled down the stairs. The guy could have stopped shooting while two wounded persons were in his basement, and called the cops. Two kids might be alive, and this scum bag wouldn't be going to prison.

    I would so love to handle his prosecution.
     
  7. CoRoMo

    CoRoMo Member

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    What a monster.

    This is a terrible story.

    Too bad Minn doesn't have the death penalty for the worst of the worst.
     
  8. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    Is there anything to learn from this? Can this serve as a basis for a serious discussion of the the scope and limits of the justified use of lethal force in self defense?

    Or do you all just want to rag on this joker?

    If the latter, this thread will get closed real soon.
     
  9. Trent

    Trent Resident Wiseguy

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    Jeeeeeez that's harsh.

    Owning / carrying a firearm does not make you judge, jury, and executioner.

    Defending yourself is one thing, but it doesn't sound like there was any defense going on there. He didn't even take the time to identify his targets.
     
  10. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Texas has three levels of charges in homicide cases. The lowest is for negligence, where killing was not the intention. Penalty of imprisonment up to ten years.

    The highest is actual murder, which was planned ahead of time. Twenty years to life. Death penalty possible for "capital murder".

    In the middle is a sort of gray-area charge, voluntary manslaughter. There was an intent to kill but occurring in the "throes of passion" where the perpetrator had lost control of himself. Ten to twenty years imprisonment.

    From my own jury experience, the language of the possible charges makes it reasonably easy to reach a verdict. The legislature did a pretty good job in making the language specific and clear.
     
  11. Bubba613

    Bubba613 member

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    If he wins the criminal suit (and there's a better chance than you would imagine), he's toast on the civil suit.
     
  12. DammitBoy

    DammitBoy Member

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    That was just plain murder. No defense.
     
  13. Tommygunn

    Tommygunn Member

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    Wow. Just wow. What jackwagon taught him the laws pertaining to self-defense shooting -- Ghenghis Khan??

    I join with others who hope the guy likes wearing orange.
     
  14. Teachu2

    Teachu2 Member

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    The worst part is that both he and his friend believe he was justified.

    "John Lange, who described himself as Smith's best friend, said Smith shouldn't be in jail.

    "You have a right to defend your home," Lange said. "He's been through hell." "

    We don't get the whole report from the news, but it sure sounds like he was lying in wait for the second kid - and perhaps the first. I'm surprised that at least the second one wasn't charged as first degree, but I'm not a lawyer.

    These guys are warped, but legally insane? I don't know.
     
  15. beatledog7

    beatledog7 Member

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    I would hope he is not found to be insane but is prosecuted as a fully cognizant adult.

    To reiterate, these deaths were not self defense; they were executions. Law-abiding gun owners must not condone this kind of behavior.
     
  16. rooter

    rooter member

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    All occupations have risks. Being a burglar/home invader is no exception.
     
  17. ClickClickD'oh

    ClickClickD'oh Member

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    Sorry, but his story is BS. He shot the ever living hell out of the first teenager and the second decided to go down the stairs a few minutes? Bovine Fecal Mater. That teenager upstairs would have either had a screaming fit or bolted like a rabbit. I don't buy his story one bit.

    The rest of this needs to come out... and I think this guy needs the chair.
     
  18. westhope

    westhope Member

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    609.065 JUSTIFIABLE TAKING OF LIFE.

    The intentional taking of the life of another is not authorized by section 609.06, except when necessary in resisting or preventing an offense which the actor reasonably believes exposes the actor or another to great bodily harm or death, or preventing the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode.

    The above is Minnesota's law for the use of lethal force. Note the part about felony in place of abode. As far as I know, there is no prior case law considering this in Minnesota.

    The two people broke a window to enter the home.

    I do not agree with what the man did but the above is MN law. What he did was wrong in my opinion.
     
  19. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    This is an example of shutcher piehole and let your lawyer do the talking.
     
  20. lemaymiami

    lemaymiami Member

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    As a retired cop I hope that this case is very carefully investigated and the clear facts are at the prosecutor's table. I've seen more than one killing dressed up as "self defense". Whoever the shooter is.... he's going to need some skilled legal help for what appears to be a criminal act (or acts) on his part.
     
  21. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator

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    I just don't see any way he clears the hurdles necessary to fall within the exception. Even on the "felony in the actor's place of abode," the shooting has to be "necessary . . . [to] prevent[] the commission of a felony in the actor's place of abode." Now, the first shots might (arguably) have been necessary in preventing the commission of a felony. Once they were down and he executed them? Not so much.
     
  22. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    While on it's face value, what you say is true, please tell me you don't believe this was justified. To walk over an unarmed person and fire a coupe de grace into their head is so far outside self defense that it boggles my mind. They were unarmed. They were laying on the floor wounded and obviously out of the fight. It's appalling and he deserves the same fate they got.
    I'm entirely pro-self defense, but this wasn't that at all. At least not the ending.

    I'm inclined to agree with this. I don't see someone unleashing a barrage of fire and a 17-year old unarmed girl charging right into it on purpose. Stinks to me too.
     
  23. HorseSoldier

    HorseSoldier Member

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    Murder charges are entirely appropriate for the situation the suspect is describing in his statements to officers.

    Agreed. Deadly force in response to intruders when they might have been armed and such is one thing. It's going to be very hard to justify that executing them both with head shots after they were incapacitated was doing anything to protect personal safety or prevent the commission of a felony-level crime.
     
  24. Spats McGee

    Spats McGee Moderator

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    Another possible title for this thread: "When to Stop Shooting: A Cautionary Tale."

    It could be the sequal to "When to Stop Shooting: Prescription for Trouble."
     
  25. Texan Scott

    Texan Scott Member

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    Mr. Eatman explained the levels of homicide under Texas law quite clearly. This guy would quite likely get 10-20. It's pretty clear this man had intent to kill someone who could do him no harm.

    As for insanity pleas....

    Insanity pleas have a very high threshold in Texas, compared to other states. Being mentally or emtionally disturbed is not adequate; even a history of, for instance, bipolar disorder won't likely get a person off. Our threshold for an insanity defense requires that the accused be detached from reality to the point that they themselves didn't understand their actions' significance.

    If he'd shot those boys because they were disguised Ant People sent by Newt Gingrich to steal his toenails, but it's AOK because they'll regenerate in a day or two, he's insane.

    In Texas, shooting them when they're already down because he has a right to defend his house and they're criminal scum who deserve it would make him a bad man who's going to Huntsville for a decade or two.
     
    Last edited: Nov 27, 2012
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