How should I handle this situation

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LJ-MosinFreak-Buck

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I am a resident in Iowa. They recently legalized concealed carry for the masses, though they were a "May I" state. Gotta love it. :D

Okay, location established, let's move on to the scenario. (FICTIONAL)

I'm hanging out with a few buddies near my truck at one of our favorite places to chill, Westwood Park (we sit in our vehicles and talk amongst ourselves, or stand outside of them).

Night rolls around and we all notice a shady character walking up from the park, through the parking lot, then between houses to the left. He disappears.

Time ticks away, friends leave, finally it's just me and a buddy.

Shady individual pops out and asks my buddy for a smoke. Buddy says he doesn't, that he smoked his last one an hour ago. Individual rounds on me and asks me the same question, to which I reply, "No, I quit."

As I finish this statement, I see another person in rear view mirror reaching into a pocket extremely suspiciously, and individual near my truck starts to shift his weight while striking up conversation.

I tell him "Can you take a step back, please? You're a little too close."
He refuses to step back.

Am I within legal rights to draw my weapon? What would you guys do?
 
I would say no. For all you know, the guy is pulling out a cell phone, and the guy shifting his weight was getting ready to turn around and leave as you commanded him to, and your tone suprised him.

Pulling a gun should be a response to a verified threat, IMHO. It's a long way from supicious jestures to drawing down on someone, ya know?

If it were me, after I had advised the guy to leave and saw his friend reaching for something, I would have immediately attempted to create space and find cover, and possibly repeat the command to leave (or for the one to show his hands). Drawing would come after those commands went unheeded, or there was an unmistakeable act of aggression from either of the suspicious two.
 
Now my opinion on this as to why I think I should draw is because you have another person approaching the vehicle from behind, hand on an unknown, but more than likely a deadly object, judging from appearance (two dressed in shadier types of clothing.)

First individual did not obey the step back command, and straight refused to. Second continued walking to other side of truck. (forgot to post this up in first post).

Would I be within legal limits now?
 
Could you draw your gun at that point?

Could you articulate that you felt in danger of imminent attack?

What would I do?

First, recognize that you (in this situation) are more than likely in real danger. If they were on the up-and-up, they would have approached together, in front of you. What they were doing is known as setting up a flanking position.

Again, what would I have done?

Immediately--and QUICKLY--moved to face both persons. My gun would be probably still holstered, but I would have bladed off, weapon side away with a hand resting on the arm, ready to draw if necessary.

I would have then told them, in a "command" voice, "We told you we didn't have any. You both need to leave, RIGHT NOW."

KEEP YOUR EYES ON THEIR HANDS!!! Forget this stuff about looking them right in the eye--no one has ever been hurt by a mean stare. It is the hands that can kill. If the hands go into a garment or a coat, then I would more than likely have drawn my weapon.

Most importantly, did you call the police and file a report? The first caller is the one with the most impact. Get the right word in first--ESPECIALLY if you have to draw your gun. Remember, deadly force can also mean holding a weapon with obvious intent to use it.

Edited to add: If you are sitting in a vehicle and you see someone approaching, DRIVE OFF. Do NOT, ever, EVER let someone approach you while you're sitting in your car, unless you know that person means you no harm.
 
this is a fictional scenario, and I was looking for a what would you do in this situation type of thing. I don't have my ccw but am going to start the process of getting one here soon and wanted to get some info under my belt first
 
States vary, but usually you don't draw or show a weapon unless you are ready to use deadly force. That doesn't mean that you can't de-escalate at any point, but drawing means you felt deadly force was necessary. If you aren't reasonably sure you need to shoot, you shouldn't draw in the first place.
 
Answer is no, you aren't authorized at that point...however a little pepper spray may be reasonable if you need to get the hell out of there. Key word...may, you have to still be able to prove that you had a reasonable cause to do that, or you're looking at assault charges.
 
Or you can stop hanging around the park at night, and go to a bar for a beer. Or someplace for a coffee.

First rule of self defense is don't be out where trouble is.

Carl.
 
As I finish this statement, I see another person in rear view mirror reaching into a pocket extremely suspiciously, and individual near my truck starts to shift his weight while striking up conversation.

I tell him "Can you take a step back, please? You're a little too close."
He refuses to step back.

Am I within legal rights to draw my weapon? What would you guys do?
Click to expand...
If you're inside your car (or truck) just roll up the window, start the engine, and drive away.

If you're not inside your vehicle...get in, start the engine, and drive away.

If the guy (or guys) try to prevent this, then you might consider drawing your pistol.

But there's really no legal justification to draw on someone simply because the look shady, try to bun a cigarette, shift their weight, put their hands inside their pockets, etc....
 
Commanding another person to leave a public area is questionable.
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A strong and firm command to back off may be effective at testing someone's intents, and if there are witnesses it may be helpful in establishing you in their minds as the threatened party.

However, the fact that the "aggressor" didn't leave a public place, or even that they didn't leave your comfort zone, or follow any other order you gave, won't be a lawful justification for drawing a weapon.

Their failure to comply could be a compelling part of your testimony as to why you felt that your actions were reasonable and necessary, but there will need to be more to it than that.
 
Pepper spray and martial arts training will give you more options.
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We have another thread running currently which is discussing something very similar and the point is raised, if you don't have a legal justification for physical violence, then pepper spray and martial arts techniques aren't really all that helpful.

If you wouldn't be justified in brandishing a firearm or even shooting, you probably aren't justified in spraying, tasing, or assaulting the "aggressor" either.

Some would say that they would feel more secure in striking or macing someone in a situation where a shooting wouldn't be justifiable. But if the act isn't justifiable, the assault committed is a felony with almost the same legal consequences as a homicide.

Less-lethal options can be useful, but their primary benefit is as the most effective alternate to a firearm, in places where firearms cannot be legally carried.
 
Posted by LJ-MosinFreak-Buck: Now my opinion on this as to why I think I should draw is because you have another person approaching the vehicle from behind, hand on an unknown, but more than likely a deadly object, judging from appearance (two dressed in shadier types of clothing.)
Click to expand...
How would you ever articulate that you had a basis for a reasonable belief that you were in imminent danger of death or serious bodily harm? Seeing a "hand on an unknown, but more than likely a deadly object, judging from appearance (... shadier types of clothing)" won't even begin to cut it. As easyg put it, "...there's really no legal justification to draw on someone simply because the look shady, try to bum a cigarette, shift their weight, put their hands inside their pockets, etc.".

First individual did not obey the step back command, and straight refused to. Second continued walking to other side of truck. (forgot to post this up in first post).
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While a "command" to stop may be appropriate in some circumstances, it is not really enforceable, and no one has the authority to enforce a command to anyone in a public place to "step back", though saying so may be a viable element of a self defense situation if a person displaying aggressive behavior has moved dangerously close under suspicious circumstances.

Would I be within legal limits now?
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NO. And you need to understand that pulling a gun when you are not lawfully justified cannot only lead to some very serious criminal charges, it can also give another person the legal justification for killing or seriously harming you in self defense.

Not to appear to lecture, but now that concealed carry is lawful for you, it is high time to do some very serious study about what constitutes the safe, proper, and lawful use of a weapon. Here and here are some resources for your study. It would also be a very good idea to avail yourself of some training. The MAG-20 classroom course is highly recommended (I am signed up to take the course in July). The cost may appear high to you, but to put it in perspective, it's less than the cost of the first couple of billable hours with a criminal defense attorney experienced in self defense cases.

As mljdeckard points out, in most circumstances and in most jurisdictions, drawing your gun would not be lawful unless you were justified in using deadly force. (In at least two states, not including yours, you would be justified under some circumstances if force were justified).

Posted by Carl Levitian: Or you can stop hanging around the park at night, and go to a bar for a beer. Or someplace for a coffee.

First rule of self defense is don't be out where trouble is.
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Excellent advice!
 
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You and your buddy each get in your own vehicle and leave. Call him and set up a meeting at a bar or somewhere else to keep up the chatting. If you are keeping yourself in a situation where you feel like you might draw your weapon you are making a big mistake; your first move should be to try to escape the situation before you need to draw it.

In this situation it would not be hard to escape the possible threat so your decision should be where to go next, not whether to draw your gun or not.
 
If you are keeping yourself in a situation where you feel like you might draw your weapon you are making a big mistake; your first move should be to try to escape the situation before you need to draw it.
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Exactly. Your first instinct should be to attempt to warn away danger (or avoid it altogether) then to try to escape, and then and only then resort to force to defend yourself if need be. IMHO, many people are far, far too ready to pull a weapon in a situation that can and should be solved by proper decisions and actions.

Just remember - it's Mindset > Skillset > Toolset for a reason.
 
you are not within your right to draw your weapon. he has not given you reason to believe your life is in danger.

thats the legal view, my view is draw your weapon. but in a court room lawyers are very good at making things look different from what they are.

this website explains it better:
http://www.defendu.com/gun_fistfight.htm

if the perp wont back up, then back yourself up as long as that is the safest course of action. you can justifyable defend yourself, but wind up in a court room where a lawyer will kill you.
 
No violence, thats when you buddy pulls out his phone and you say that you would love to chat, but, you have to leave, and really you should quit smoking, you can save a lot that way...

Then put it in reverse a little clumsily and rev a bit, and the guy in back will move. Pull out, and take it as a lesson to avoid places that those who you should avoid hang out.
 
I did quit smoking! :D Big acheivement on my part.
This is all fictional, hypothetical. I'm just trying to get a feel for legalities for al of this, because I don't speak and hardly understand legalese, and would rather have it explained by the ley-person like me.

Thanks for the comments and I do have some better insight into all of this.
 
This is why practicing your draw is important, along with early threat assessment.
Your best surprise is a quick draw and fire, but only if they have a gun pointed at you...

I doubt that brandishing the weapon is legal, but maybe they don't want to call the cops either... you should feel closer to life threatening situation, if you end up shooting unarmed assailants, you are already looking at possibly months of legal wrangling, even if the outcome is good.

That's just me.
 
Mosin-Freak - Ability to decipher legalese aside, you should be thinking in terms of "How can I avoid this situation" and "How can I escape this situation" rather than jumping immediately into when it's justified to pull a gun.

That's not meant as a criticism, just an observation. It's really easy for drawing a gun (or a knife or whatever) to look like the best reaction to most situations like this, but in my opinion, it's usually unnecessary, and often the wrong conclusion to jump to. As a few others have mentioned, definitely seek out some decent training, even if it's in website or video form. It'll help you be able to make solid decisions on when and how to react to various threat levels.
 
Mosinfreak

You only use deadly force (whether its a gun, knife, bat, whatever doesn't matter) when its your only option

Even if you are justified in criminal court, a lawyer will kill you in civil court. The lawyer will bring the guys wife kids and his other kids from his other baby mama, when the judge and jury see 13 crying children who miss their daddy and they will take everythiing you have

Running away is always the best thing to do as long as its the safest
 
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