How slow is to slow

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I loaded 3.4 grains of Trail Boss (measured with rcbs scale) under 125 gr. Rainier ccrn and fired it into my test hole. (Ruger LCR 357 mag) The load was so mild I checked down the barrel to make sure the bullet went through. I don't have a chronograph but the load is in mid range of the powder limits. I have read that to fast causes trouble with accuracy and safety but what about to slow. I have a towel over sand in a 5 gal. bucket to keep the sand from splashing on the floor and when I took the towel off to find how far the bullet went into the sand the bullet fell out of the towel. Is there a to slow speed when reloading to watch out for? Sure wouldn't be a self defence load. So much for 700+ fps. I tried 5 times all with the same results. Bad Powder?
Help!
 
3.5 is the "minimum" load for a 125gr 'lead' RNFP bullet according to the Hogdon load data sight. Max is 5.3 at only 1035'/sec, 17900 CUP, @ 1.158" for this bullet.

What OAL did you use?
 
Too slow and you might just stick a bullet in your barrel.:eek: I have done this before and it is one of those unnecessary things in life that's for sure. Then if you miss it for whatever reason the next bullet will be really dangerous.:eek: This is why they have a minimum most times.:)
 
I use 3.2 grains in my Cowboy .38 special loads for action shooting, and they cronograph at about 650 fps out of my revolvers. I have tried lighter charges but I started getting larger variations in velocity, sometimes nearly 100 fps difference. So 3.2 grains is as low as I go and still maintain consistant velocities from shot to shot. LM
 
LightningMan

Joined SASS a couple months ago in hopes of getting into the action down In Canton, Oh. No replies to my e-mails to the webmaster of the club. Canton McKinley Rifle and Pistol Club has events sponsored by a SASS club in the summer. Must be just to cold and snowy. I have my duties every Monday at CMRPC for training night. Good people at the club on Mondays as the BS is spread around. I shoot a Ruger Vaquero in .357 mag with a 4" barrel. Looking for a Winchester 94 lever gun for the pair. Used of course. I would like the black powder route as soon as I find a mentor. rj
 
Crooked Stripe, I have lots of CAS experience with thousands of rounds using precisely 3.4 gr Trail Boss under 125 gr cast lead bullets in .357 cases (a "worse" situation than .38 cases for risk of under-charging).

I am thorough in testing and record-keeping (not so much though, in spelling and grammar). This load produces an average of 755 fps from my pair of Ruger Blackhawks with 6.5" barrels (one shoots a bit slower than the other, because I fire-lapped it to remove the constriction where the barrel screws into the frame. The other has not been fire-lapped, and shoots a bit faster because of the higher pressure. The slower gun seems to be more accurate. I have access to a Ransom Rest and plan to prove this out. Then I'll fire-lap the second revolver).

The same load delivers about 900 fps through a 20" Rossi 1892 and a 20" Uberti 1873. It's no faster out of a 24" Rossi, which I no longer own.

In both the above cases, these velocities are plenty high enough to avoid bullets sticking in the bore. I think the rule of thumb is 400 fps minimum, but I would want to keep it above 600 just to be sure. Your LCR will have lower velocity than the Blackhawks, and the copper clad bullets will also be slightly slower.

There's actually no physical danger to you if you fire a round after sticking one in the barrel, but it will bulge the barrel, and that's bad. I did that once with my Springfield 1911. It turned out for the best though, because their techs fit it with an upgraded SS match barrel and bushing, and only charged me $125 including shipping. That was a small price to pay for a far more accurate gun. You might not be so lucky. But with this load in the LCR, you really should be fine.

I appreciate LightningMan's observations, because I am considering dropping down to 3.0 gr (in .357 cases) since the cowboy to beat in these parts, Lead Ace, uses 2.7 gr in .38 cases. I'll load up a small quantity to begin with and look closely at SD's and ES's.

I am shocked that the bullet failed to penetrate the towel! I have such a bucket of sand in the garage, albeit with a 4" diameter PVC tube sticking out of it to muffle the noise. I live in an urban, anti-gun place. But I will duplicate your experiment; neighbors be damned. Unfortunately, I have no copper clad clad bullets to duplicate your conditions exactly. I also lack an LCR, but do have an SP101 which is quite similar.
 
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Chrono

I purchased a chrono with lighting diffusers yesterday. My results where disappointing. I set it up over the same bucket inside the barn. According to the instructions the lighting means a big deal. I have fluorescent lighting and had to shine a incandescent light over the chrono to get any sort of reading, even that, I don't think was working well. It reads about 1/2 of what the books are telling me. I loaded a few bullets at 3.2 gr of Trail Boss under the same 125 gr ccrn with a 271 fps reading. I increased the powder to 3.6 gr and got 302 fps. Can this be? I am new to this hobby and sometimes I see or read something that I just can't get a grip on. rj
 
IMHO, catching a bullet in a towel is consistent with ~300 fps. I think you are on to something. Kudos for having the sense to believe the evidence.

► Check your powder weights against another scale. Preferably a beam scale.

► SOME electronic scales just will not function well below 8-10 grains. Try zeroing the scale again, but this time with a hefty coin (like a nickel) in the pan to overcome any "sticktion" associated with light loads.

► Buy a set of "test weights" and see if your scale is accurate in the 3 to 5 grain range.

► Double check the load data to be applicable to your bullet composition and weight, and your type brass. Examples: Don't freely substitute lead or jacketed data for plated bullets. (Published Ranier load data has been posted here previously.) Don't use 357 brass in 38 Spcl loads.

► Match the crimp to the bullet design. Roll crimp only into a cannelure. Taper crimp when there is no cannelure.


Hope this helps! ;)
 
I double checked the powder weights early today with a Lee beam scale, RCBS beam and a cheap 40 dollar digital scale I bought from Midway. All read the same. At this point I don't know what to do. I have been loading with these scales with many different kinds of powder for over a year without a problem that I know of. No pressure signs at all. My store bought ammo seems to be a bit stouter most of the time. I chronoed a .22lr last night at 661 fps. and if I remember that is slow. Where to turn now???
 
Check all your really light loads powder forward to make sure they will exit the barrel dependably as well. Seriously. Lead is usually not a big deal though. It can be critical with plated and jacketed. :)
 
Chrono results

Well, I know you guys haven't left the screen waiting for me to solve this problem. Seriously I moved the chrono outside where it is partly sunny and started shooting. Results as follows, 38 special out of a LCR- 611 fps pushed by 3.6 gr Trail Boss. 2 rounds out of a Ruger 10/22, 1272 and 1217 fps. cheep bulk ammo. I will do more testing once I get my light kit for my Chrono. (Competition Electronics). I hope it was a light problem that caused the false readings. I want to thank all of you for your input, it means a lot to me. rj
 
611 FPS can be OK with lead if the powder isn't position sensitive, but is getting close to too slow with plated or jacketed. I have gotten them out of the barrel more slowly (300+), but 600 is my happy spot for a low end with plated. I have also stuck bullets playing with the low end and powder position.
 
Given that stubby little LCR barrel, 611 fps may not be too far off the mark. As I said, 3.4 gr Trail Boss behind a properly sized 125 gr cast lead bullet (in .357 cases) averages 755 fps from my pair of 6.5" Blackhawks. Losing 25 fps per inch of barrel length is not unreasonable.

With this much or more Trail Boss in .38 cases, you need not worry about position sensitivity. Those cases are plenty full. That's what Trail Boss is all about.

I have a hunch where some of your power loss is going, though. You are using Rainier "ccrn". Pardon my referring to them earlier as "copper clad". It's probably not proper to refer to thin electroplating as "cladding". Ranier's standard sizing for that bullet is 0.357". Now here's the thing, I own 4 Ruger revolvers, and all them them have very large cylinder throats. My two Blackhawks in .357 mag, and my SP101 in that caliber, all have cylinder throats of about 0.359"! Yes, they're that big! They're very consistently sized, but they are large. My .44 Mag Bisley is similarly oversized.

Now I shoot cast bullets, so I am able to order custom sizing. I get them sized to 0.360" when I can, but accept nothing less than 0.359". I do this to optimize for accuracy. If I'm wrong, I hope somebody more knowledgeable will step in and straighten me out, but having a bullet sized smaller than the cylinder throats will reduce pressure. Lower pressure results in lower velocity.

Any revolvers with cylinder throats as big as mine will shoot STANDARD SIZED BULLETS slower than most published load data, when corrected for all variables such as barrel length, primer, COAL, etc. etc.

To better utilize the load potential, you will need bullets sized to your cylinder throats (or a thou' or so larger). That's hard to do unless you're shooting cast lead bullets. But there's much to consider when moving to cast lead, not the least of which is you first want to remove all residual copper from the bore.

And your LCR is a defense gun. Maybe not the best gun to be experimenting with for cowboy action type loads, which is what Trail Boss is for. But if your objective is to produce powder puff loads for your LCR, there's probably no better choice than Trail Boss. Oh, and when you think about "minimum speed" to ensure you don't stick a slug in the barrel, remember that you can reduce that by about 25 fps or so per inch of barrel length, when considering this class of loads in revolvers.
 
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There is a couple things I must add. When stopping a bullet in a towel I assume you guessed the towel is folded over and there is most likely 4-6 layers. I do have a couple other pistols one is a 357 6' Blackhawk and the other is a New Vaquero in 45 colt. The LCR I keep under a blanket by the couch where I have to sleep due to my degenerative arthritis in my back. I keep the fire power for the fact I can no longer protect the wife or my belongings with my physical strength. Thanks for all the input and look forward to more of your posts, rj
 
I would like to add to my above post, that my 3.2 gr TB load using a 130 RNFP bullet and .38 special cases, could go a little lower with my charge if I seated my bullets (SNS Casting) deeper. Right now I seat them to hold an OAL of 1.515 because this insures reliable feeding in my rifle. I did some testing with a different bullet just to be used for revolvers, for that I used a 125 gr Suter's Choice RNFP, this bullet is has a much shorter round nose so more of the bullet is in the case. With this setup I could drop my charge down to 2.6 grains of TB and maintain consistant velocities at 600 fps. Of course these were of no use in my rifle as the wouldn't feed. LM
 
I have found that plated bullets require more powder than lead bullets to achieve similar velocities. I would start at the upper end of the cast bullet data and work down with the aid of a chronograph.
 
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