How strong is a broomhandle mauser ?

[tark]

Strong enough to handle this kind of pressure. May I direct your attention to the last statistic given. Let us forever put to bed the notion that tokarev ammo ( 35,000 PSI ) is too hot for a C-96 to handle. And may I add that the Mauser round, shooting a slightly heavier bullet, comes within 90 fps of equaling the 9X23 winchester which is running at 17,000+ more PSI.

 

[Ru4real]

Forever, put to bed, then.

Meanwhile, in the real world, broom handle Mauser’s are still coming unglued.

Are we really running with a Wiki article here?

 

[CapnMac]

It's a shame the 9mm Mauser Export failed to really gel.
But, then again, we'd just have more more 'flavor' of 9mm to kvetch about []

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

Why would you try to put a high pressure round in a firearm that has not been in production for almost a 100 years? They were chambered in rounds that had been tested by the manufactures way back when. Rounds that suited the gun, and didn't put extra stress on the firearm.

 

[tark]

Why would you try to put a high pressure round in a firearm that has not been in production for almost a 100 years?

Not sure what your point is, but the 9X25 was an original C-96 round. It was contemporary to the gun. It was developed in 1904.

 

[tark]

Meanwhile, in the real world, broom handle Mauser’s are still coming unglued.

If they are it's not from too much pressure from firing Tokarev ammo. Unless, of course, the gun is in ill repair.

Are we really running with a Wiki article here?

Yes. And I am fully aware that Wiki goofs up now and then. I have found errors in the past. They say Remington chambered the #1 rolling block in 30-06 when they never did. If you think that pressure # is off then by all means produce some evidence showing them wrong.

 

[Carl N. Brown]

First thing I did with my C96 Mauser was replace the hammer spring and the bolt return spring. By serial number range, it was made about 1912-1913.
In the C96 design, the hammer spring does more to slow the bolt than the "recoil spring" which I call the "bolt return spring" because it does little to slow the bolt. An antique C96 can have a hammer spring that is strong enough to pop a primer, but too weak to prevent the bolt from battering the bolt stop til the bolt stop cracks the rear of the barrel extension.
People who run hot modern pistols replace recoil springs every 5,000 rounds.
How many rounds has the hammer spring in a typical antique C96 had on it? You probably can't know.
Antique war trophy Luger and Mauser pistols are the reason US commercial 9mm Luger and .30 Mauser pistol ammo had the reputation of being weak tea.
A C96 in good condition with proper springs will handle standard 7.62x25mm Tokarev. The WWII issue ammo in 7.62 Tokarev and 7.63 Mauser were basically interchangeable. The Finns successfully used German 7.63 Mauser ammo in captured Russian PPSh 1941 submachine guns in WWII.

BUT I have shot batches of military surplus 7.62x25mm ammo that gave me concern shooting them in my CZ 52 pistol. Some batches kicked harder than commercial S&B which is considered pretty hot for 7.62x25mm Tokarev. I suspect some military surplus 7.62x25 would be hard on a Tokarev pistol or PPSH 41 smg, due to ammo storage under extreme conditions or careless manufacture or powder deteriorating over time.

I have shot commercial 7.62x25mm S&B and Wolf in my C96 after replacing springs. With the worn condition of my barrel, real accuracy is possible only by handloading with .312" diameter bullets in the 85gr to 90gr weight range. I will not shoot any military surplus 7.62x 25mm Tokarev ammo in my C96.

 

[MosinT53Hunter]

On a similar note, this was under discussion on this site back in April 22, 2012, under the title: "Help identify 9x25 Mauser ammo"

Discussion started by PaulKersey3 in the 'Rifle Country'

 

[jonnyc]

Any Bolo or C96, with new springs and an undamaged bolt stop should run just fine with just about any 7.62 Tokarev or 7.63 Mauser round...essentially the same animal. I would only avoid S&B/Winchester ammo, as I consider it too hot for any CZ52. On the other hand, I would shoot anything that fits into a TT.

 

[commygun]

Well, as someone who’s had a Broomhandle bolt stop shear, sending the bolt flying over my right shoulder at speed, I’d be disinclined to push the boundaries of what a Broomie will or will not take. Wonder what that bolt would have felt if I’d been holding the gun squarely in front of my face.

 

[tark]

Well, as someone who’s had a Broomhandle bolt stop shear, sending the bolt flying over my right shoulder at speed, I’d be disinclined to push the boundaries of what a Broomie will or will not take. Wonder what that bolt would have felt if I’d been holding the gun squarely in front of my face.

Wouldn't happen to have a pic of that damaged gun, would you? I would love to see it.

 

[jonnyc]

Or a description of the ammo...

 

[tark]

We shouldn't hold our breath, jonnyc.

 

[commygun]

This happened years ago and I wrote about it on here (you could search my posts, I suppose). The only damage to the gun was the sheared bolt stop. I ended up parting it out on eBay where, interestingly, it brought far more than the gun as whole would have. Apparently, there’s a lot of Franken-Broomies in progress out there.
The ammo was the S&B 7.63 that came in the little blue 25-rd boxes. Still have a box somewhere, cause you never know.
I’ve had considerable experience with the range of 7.62x25 surplus that was showing up in the ‘90’s. Never had a problem in my Tok but some of it was definitely more attention-getting than others. Even had one of the rechambered 1895’s. Didn’t see anything wrong with it until some Bulgarian surplus spit flame in three directions and tied the cylinder up. Got rid of the Tok cylinder eventually and found another 7.62x38 one. The old boy soldiers on nicely.

 

[tark]

It always happens years ago and there are never any surviving pictures.....

I'm gonna shoot you a PM tomorrow and explain a couple of things.

 

[commygun]

Yes, I imagined the whole thing.

Every few years on this forum, tark is moved to testify the 7.62x25-in-the-Broomhandle gospel. I find it curious but he’s clearly emotionally invested in it.
I love the Broomhandle. It’s the very definition of historical cool. And if you want to run hot 7.62x25 through it, relying on that little bolt stop (a stress riser if ever I saw one) to keep things together, God Bless.

 

[vintovka]

I use Polish tok in only one "broom". Its a 712 upper mated to a magazine adapted lower with all new springs. Its "beefiest" (is that a word?). Broom ever made. When sorting brooms during import one defect we culled out for was damaged bolt stop holes/rear post deformation. The Chinese shot the snot out of many with tok ammo causing this damage along with cracking chunks out of the bolt slot and pulling the extractor loose. One more defect was causing a frame crack from frame stop pounding. Weak springs didn't help. Also suspect the tok ammo wore the barrels out, some as oversize as .32. Once worn think gasses escaped around the bullet increasing bore wear. Of all the tok ammo the one to really avoid (in any pistol) are those Bulgarian Pink pack 54 dated "proof loads".

 

[jonnyc]

"The ammo was the S&B 7.63 that came in the little blue 25-rd boxes."
Well, there goes the whole "only use 7.63 Mauser ammo in your Broomhandle" argument!
Bad springs and poor maintenance are the causes of Broom problems, not the ammo.

 

[barnetmill]

If I had a C96 I would only use enough powder in the loads to function the gun and also replace the springs and do a thorough examination of the gun for wear and damage. What tark and others do is their right and really of not so much interest beyond the first one or two posts. You have never had a problem. Ok that is good to know.
Someone has a blown up gun and that is good to know. Again one or two posts on everyone's experience is enough.

 

[tark]

Every few years on this forum, tark is moved to testify the 7.62x25-in-the-Broomhandle gospel. I find it curious but he’s clearly emotionally invested in it.

The only thing I am "emotionally invested in" are exposing old myths for what they are. Now, where to start?

I'll start by saying you are lucky to still have all of the fingers on your shooting hand. Those re-chambered Nagant cylinders in 7.62X25 were deathtraps. Tok ammo runs at over twice the pressure of 7.62X38 revolver ammo. I am glad you were not injured.

Now, below are some pictures of what happens when a C-96 bolt stop goes bad. But what you see is actually not the result of a broken bolt stop but rather what the bolt stop does to the barrel extension when springs are weak and ammo is too hot. The bolt stop that produced this damage was itself undamaged and could have been used again. It is shown in the last picture. The reason this happened was simple. The bolt stop is hardened steel. Not brittle hard, but harder than the barrel extension. It was done this way to make sure the result of shooting the gun with weak springs and hot ammo would result in what you see in the pictures, instead of a hole in your head from a flying bolt. This is not to say that C-96 bolts have never exited the gun. It has happened. It happened to you.

But your account of the incident raised eyebrows in one respect. You said that something happened that is a virtual impossibility. I said "virtual" not literal. And you surely must understand that when you say something happened that is a near impossibility, people will be skeptical...

I'm not talking about your sheared bolt stop. I'm talking about you statement that the gun was undamaged, save for the bolt stop. You say you parted out the gun and made good money. Here is the rub. There is no way the rear end of that barrel extension would have escaped undamaged. I have seen a few pics of sheared bolt stops. Broken would be a better description. Never seen one cleanly sheared off, they were always jagged edges that would have produced some visible damage. Enough that no one would want the part.

So, to smooth any ruffled feathers...If you say it happened...then it happened...end of discussion! I'll assume the guy who purchased that barrel extension didn't see too well. Lol

Good shooting, and stay away from those 7.62 Nagant cylinders.

 

[tark]

If I had a C96 I would only use enough powder in the loads to function the gun and also replace the springs and do a thorough examination of the gun for wear and damage.

Tried the former, years ago. Ended up with the hottest listed loads being barely strong enough to cycle the gun. Like most automatics, a broomhandle will only run with full power loads. I do the latter as S.O.P.

Again one or two posts on everyone's experience is enough.

I guess you are against dialogs between shooters about their experiences.

 

[commygun]

The bolt was entirely undamaged (beyond a few minute scratches, I suppose). It flew over my shoulder and slid across the concrete floor of the indoor range I was at. The bolt stop sheared in two. If you’re more comfortable with the word broken, then by all means use broken. The notion that a little broken bolt stop would somehow wreak catastrophic damage on the hefty hunk of metal that is the Broomie bolt is ludicrous. Anyone who is interested can google images of both parts and draw their own conclusions.

 

[tark]

There is no way the rear end of that barrel extension would have escaped undamaged. I have seen a few pics of sheared bolt stops. Broken would be a better description. Never seen one cleanly sheared off, they were always jagged edges that would have produced some visible damage. Enough that no one would want the part.

You need to read this again. Bolt stops tear up the barrel extension, not the bolt And a C-96 bolt is no where near a "hefty hunk of metal" It is actually rather lightly constructed, being hollow for the firing pin and slotted on the right side, the length of the bolt, for the bolt stop.

It is obvious we will forever be at odds with one another so I'm out of here, leaving you with the last word. Fire away...

 

[commygun]

The barrel extension was completely undamaged. The bolt stop sheared even with the interior of the extension. The loop exited with the bolt and the balance of the stop fell out of the extension. I’m unsure why anyone would find this remarkable. I’ve seen thinning bolt stops, cracked bolt stops, bolt stops of unknown provenance. It’s an early, aspirational, auto design and it isn’t surprising that it may show some weaknesses a hundred years on. Believe me, I would love to have one that I could run like a Glock.

 

[lysanderxiii]

Strong enough to handle this kind of pressure. May I direct your attention to the last statistic given. Let us forever put to bed the notion that tokarev ammo ( 35,000 PSI ) is too hot for a C-96 to handle. And may I add that the Mauser round, shooting a slightly heavier bullet, comes within 90 fps of equaling the 9X23 winchester which is running at 17,000+ more PSI.

I would be leery of using Wikipedia as a source, however you might try here, at least they cite references.