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How to avoid hearing "President Kerry" in January, 2005!

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If you vote third party, it's basically a vote for Kerry.

No, it is not, and it is fallacious to continue to assert that it is.

If I were a Republican who magically decided to vote for a Libertarian, then I suppose you might be able to say that. But since I would never vote for a Republican, then Bush or whatever other candidate hasn't lost my vote: they never had it in the first place.

If you're going to accost people about what your own pet candidate has failed to earn, then go talk to all the people who don't even bother to register to vote. There's a hell of a lot more of them than there are third party people put together.

Talk all you want about princilples and voting your conscience, but that's what it is. If enough people vote Libertarian, then Kerry will win

If enough people vote Libertarian, then we'll have Libertarian president, and we'll get our freedoms back, rather than simply losing the freedoms we don't use as much (free speech, habeas corpus, etc) before the ones that this particular audience likes to make use of (RKBA).
 
If we vote for Bush, we get that conservative Supreme Court and we can make headway over the next four years to move towards freedom and constitutionalism
What is there in Bush's last three years which indicates he will appoint constitutionally restrained jurists? Is it his support of the Second Amendment (AWB renewal)?

--Is it his support of the First Amendment (Campaign Finance Control)? Is it his push for Medicare Drugs (General welfare clause, I suppose)?

--How 'bout his forthright enforcement of our borders?

--Maybe its his willingness to go to the mat to fight for his court nominees, some of which we know nothing other than Bush's personal approval.

--I know, I know. Its his all out combat against a Democrat MINORITY who redefine constitutional provision in terms of partisan procedural niceties.

--Its gotta be his support of US sovereignty by re-entering UNESCO or his willingness to loan money to the UN to rebuild its palace in NY?

Bush is no conservative. He is a form of life known as a 60's Democrat. A species of Democrat (now extinct) that was socially liberal and militarily hawkish. A species which honestly believed polities stopped at the waters edge. A species sadly going the way of the dodo bird.

Quite frankly I see no benefit to Bush placing his people on the SC. In my view the best thing that could happen is for Democrats to continue its magnificant stonewall tactics and Bush concludes the best tactic is to simply not appoint replacement justices. The constitution does not specify the number of justices. Perhaps if the work load was a little heavier SCOTUS would think twice about hearing activist cases.
 
If enough people vote Libertarian, then Kerry will win and we can kiss any chance of having a conservative Supreme Court emerge any time soon goodbye. If we vote for Bush, we get that conservative Supreme Court and we can make headway over the next four years to move towards freedom and constitutionalism.
lool.gif
Bwaahahahhahhaaahahahaha!!!!! Right....Bush and conservative, Bush and freedom!...hahahhaahhaahha....If enough people vote Bush, we will be praying for Clinton and his brand of conservatism! God, that was a good one.:banghead:
 
How to avoid President Kerry

If enough people vote Libertarian, then Kerry will win and we can kiss any chance of having a conservative Supreme Court emerge any time soon goodbye. If we vote for Bush, we get that conservative Supreme Court and we can make headway over the next four years to move towards freedom and constitutionalism.

First of all - "if enough people vote Libertarian" - we might get a Libertarian. That is unless they throw the election to the Supreme Court again and they choose to elect Bush. Remember, last time Al Whore got more people votes, he just didn't get the four justice votes he needed to be President.

Are you living in a different dimension than the rest of us? Maybe the Bush in your dimension shows promise of appointing conservative supreme court justices and indicates strong support for the Constitution. You're lucky. I can assure you, the Bush that I've seen has used the Constitution for toliet paper - and we're not moving toward "freedom and constitutionism".

This idea that those of us who choose to vote for our ideals - as opposed to voting for someone who can "win" is getting old. Give it up.
 
Like I said before, voting for a 3rd. party this year is like castrating yourself to spite an ex wife or girlfriend.

If you like the 9th. Circuit based in San Francisco you'll love the loony leftists that Kerry would appoint. Maybe now I understand why so many right wing guys can never get dates, they won't settle for anyone that isn't 100% perfect, and that leads to a life of being lonely.

Just ask yourself, if you were a judge (with your views on issues) would you stand a better chance of being placed on a federal court position by Bush or Kerry! Heck, if you are white would you stand a better chance of being given a federal contract for a project under Bush or Kerry?
 
I'm basing it on the judicial nominees that he has appointed to the circuit courts that have been getting stonewalled by the Democrats because they are too conservative. It will be a cold day in hell before we elect a libertarian president. If you were going to vote for Kerrry, then by all means, vote Libertarian. But give Bush the benefit of the doubt if you are trying to decide between him and someone who has no prayer to get elected.
 
I have voted Republican for President ever since 1984.

I won't do it in 2004; the Republican party knows why and it scares them.

Bush is slowly realizing that he has alienated his conservative base with his liberal domestic agenda. No, I won't go out and vote for Kerry. But a lot of conservatives are going to sit this election out, or vote for a third party candidate.

Bush's liberal politics are going to come back to haunt them. He will never draw liberals to his side, and he will only push conservatives away.

The breaking point for me with Bush was the Medicare Reform Bill. How can someone who claims to be a fiscal conservative support expansion of the government like this?

This was quickly followed by Bush's decision to sign the Campaign Finance Reform Bill after saying it was probably un-Constitutional. If Bush thinks the law was un-Constitutional, and has an oath to protect the Constitution, then how can he sign something like that?
 
voting for a 3rd. party this year is like castrating yourself to spite an ex wife or girlfriend.

I'm sorry, that doesn't even make any sense. Perhaps you can elaborate on the analogy, or just, stop using it. Its a little disgusting.

Maybe now I understand why so many right wing guys can never get dates, they won't settle for anyone that isn't 100% perfect, and that leads to a life of being lonely.

Doot doot de doo... ad hominem.

If you're referring to the libertarians here, hot tip: libertarianism doesn't fit the left/right one dimensional scale, so we're not "right wing"

Just ask yourself, if you were a judge (with your views on issues) would you stand a better chance of being placed on a federal court position by Bush or Kerry!

Hello? Didn't we mention the fact that we're libertarian? Neither of them would ever put someone who supported constitutional rights into a court. Thats the whole point, here.

I'm basing it on the judicial nominees that he has appointed to the circuit courts that have been getting stonewalled by the Democrats because they are too conservative.

Too conservative, or because they are being appointed by a Republican president, and the two parties like to squabble like small children?

Stonewalling people who are too conservative sounds good to me. Stonewalling people who are too liberal sounds good, also. How about we stonewall everyone who is an extremist until we're just down to nice constitutional centrists?

If you were going to vote for Kerrry, then by all means, vote Libertarian.

Oh some more of the totally fallacious reasoning, come on.

But give Bush the benefit of the doubt if you are trying to decide between him and someone who has no prayer to get elected.

Benefit of the doubt? You say that like we have no idea what to expect from Bush.

We've been watching the guy for more than three years now, it seems like we've got a pretty clear idea what he is up to.


You guys keep going at it like Libertarians are simply wayward Republicans, who need to be abused back into towing the party line. If you'd stop and look at what the parties are actually doing these days, rather than what they say they're doing and stand for, you'd realize that Republicans have a hell of a lot more in common with Democrats than Libertarians have with either of them.

Do I care if Kerry beats Bush, or vice versa? No way. Tweedle Dee and Tweedle Dum. We're screwed just as thoroughly either way, from where I'm standing. Trying to entice us to make sure that Kerry loses only makes sense if you continue to persist in the delusion that the Republican position is somehow more palatable to Libertarians than the Democrat position.

They're both equally intolerable. You might as well ask us whether we'd like to die from a bullet wound to the left side of the skull, or the right side.

You might consider looking at The Political Compass. In particular, note how close together all the Democratic candidates are to Bush. Then realize that Libertarians are at the very bottom edge of the graph. Look at how much closer Kerry is to Bush, than either one of them are to the Libertarian position. It makes as much sense to ask us to pick one (or care about which one wins!) as it does for me to ask you to decide whether or not you'd rather have Al Sharpton or Dennis Kuicinich as President. They're not identical, but they're so far away from your position (which I'm betting is awfully close to Bush's, if not further up the scale) that the difference is entirely negligable.
 
attaway, boys......

"The other day at a pistol club meeting we were sitting around BS'ing about the election and not one of the people in attendance said they would vote for Bush."
************************************************************

Typical gun owners....sit this one out and let Kerry take your handguns down the "approved sporting purposes" path.:scrutiny:

Vote Libertarian?:eek:

Why not just stay home and let the inevitable happen;) .

I'll vote for G.W., only because he's the best doable choice for gunowners.

Kerry certainly won't do anything positive for the Second Amendment.:barf:

Neither will a defeated Libertarian candidate...as any certainly will be.
:banghead:
 
1. I never understand the bogus argument that a person won't vote for the lesser of two evils. Guess what? Unless you are a mindless party groupie you will always disagree with something your party does. So, you are always picking the lesser of two (or three) evils.

2. The Libertarians will not win. Please, just accept reality.

3. The Democrats pushed "Patriot Act" like bills during the 90s (when they were in power). The Republicans, being irresponsible partisan jerks, opposed it by hiding behind the Constitutition for political hay. Now the Democrats, WHO NEARLY ALL VOTED FOR THE PATRIOT ACT are pretending they dislike it for political gain. This stuff isn't rocket science.

4. The Democrats basically care about two freedoms: abortion and gay rights.

5. The Democrats have done nothing to reduce taxes or regulation or gun control. The Democrats have no interest whatsoever in private property rights.

6. GWB and the Republicans have held gun laws at bay. Yes GWB is playing games with the AWB--but he knows (as Delay and others have said) that it will never make it to his desk. Who wants it on his desk--Democrats! Who penned it--Democrats. Which party is the only party that has expressed any interest in stopping it--the Republicans!

7. The evil :rolleyes: Ashcroft became the first AG to state the obvious; the 2nd is an individual right.

8. Bush took the war to the terrorists. Afganistan is no longer a Taliban staging area. Saddam is no longer laughing at us and filling mass graves with innocents. Democrats say we needed U.N. permission. Guess what? The Chinese, French and Russians (our good friends) were not coming on board. Germany was not coming on board (lefty leader and elections to win). Kerry has spent 30 years on the wrong side of defense issues. Why shoud we trust him now?
 
Point of correction:
First of all - "if enough people vote Libertarian" - we might get a Libertarian. That is unless they throw the election to the Supreme Court again and they choose to elect Bush. Remember, last time Al Whore got more people votes, he just didn't get the four justice votes he needed to be President.
Irrevelvant argumentation. Presidential elections are done through electors. Popular vote is relevant only to the extent it is to elect the electors. Thankfully we have never had direct election of the president and hopefully we never will.
 
Isn't the Supreme Court supposed to be 5to4 conservative now? How will appointing conservatives help? Look what this bunch did with campaign finance. Liberal and conservative isn't nere as important as rule of the constitution.
 
With their obnoxious misrepresentations about Bush's National Guard record The Dems and their allies in the news media are doing a magnificant job of firming up Bush's republican base.

Yep. The more the Dems attack Bush on issues that do not merit any attack, the more I tend to support him. As I said in an earlier post, I'm not participating in the Bush bashing anymore. I'm starting to open my eyes and come to the realization that by participating in it, I am furthering the cause of the extreme left wing. Make no mistake folks, they are united. Nothing would make them happier than to see us all divided. I think the "Moby Troll" strategy is succeeding to some extent. I think conservatives are being outwitted and duped into furthering the cause of the extreme left. That said, I have a new barometer:

If the extreme left is for it, I'm against it 99.99999% of the time. If the extreme left is against it, I'm for it 99.99999% of the time. The .00001% that remains is usually some sort of trojan horse.

The extreme left is against Bush.
The extreme left is for Kerry.

I'm definately against Kerry, but as far as being for Bush...this is that rare .00001%. When in doubt, I turn to the 2nd Amendment. The 2nd Amendment is the reset switch. The political entity that has no problem with us having our hands on the switch probably harbors no ill will towards us. The political entity that wants to take away our ability to flip that switch probably does.

AWB renewal, I stay home. AWB sunset, I vote Bush.

George!!! Do you hear me???
 
The Presidential race is not the only election being held this fall -- there is also the matter of House and Senate seats up for election.

Make sure that you identify and support the best congress-critters you can.
 
Several conservative and liberal seats will likely become available in the next 4 years. Word is that Rhenqvist is looking to retire soon after Bush gets elected. He has likely held out because a judicial nomination fight now would energize the liberals -- if Bush wins Bush can appoint a more conservative nominee and have a stronger mandate from the American people.

By the way, which of the Dakotas was it that the Democrat liberal won a senate seat over a conservative Republican by only a few hundred votes but the Libertarian pulled thousands of votes in that election?

And if you want a different analogy than the one about someone spiting their ex wife or girlfriend by castrating themselves just to show who is in charge then how about a kid who doesn't get his way (wants a Happy Meal) and because he doesn't get it he breaks his new expensive toy. I think the analogy fits when conservatives threaten to boot a Republican who is (and the liberals know it) many times more conservative than the liberal Democrat just over a couple of issues.

Oh well, maybe in a few years of liberal control over education AND government AND the courts then when your daughter comes home and announces she is getting married to her best girlfriend you can save some money on the wedding cost by splitting the difference with the other girl's parents.:what:
 
If you vote third party, it's basically a vote for Kerry.
Okay, time for a lesson in basic math skills.

Candidate R has 250 votes.

Candidate D has 250 votes.

If pax votes for Candidate X, how many more votes will Candidate D have?

pax

Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs, and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? – Patrick Henry
 
By the way, which of the Dakotas was it that the Democrat liberal won a senate seat over a conservative Republican by only a few hundred votes but the Libertarian pulled thousands of votes in that election?

Who cares?

then how about a kid who doesn't get his way (wants a Happy Meal) and because he doesn't get it he breaks his new expensive toy.

I still utterly fail to see how it has anything to do with the situation at hand.

Likely because you're seeing a situation completely different from the one I'm seeing.

I think the analogy fits when conservatives threaten to boot a Republican who is (and the liberals know it) many times more conservative than the liberal Democrat just over a couple of issues.

Again, you persist in believing that Libertarians are wayward conservative Republicans.

Oh well, maybe in a few years of liberal control over education AND government AND the courts then when your daughter comes home and announces she is getting married to her best girlfriend you can save some money on the wedding cost by splitting the difference with the other girl's parents

I'm sorry, since I'm not homophobic, you'll need to find some other fear to play on.

In the event that I have children, I couldn't care less who they bring home, so long as they're happy.

If any hypothetical future daughter of mine is a lesbian, then I'll just have to hope she adopts so I'll have some grandchildren.
 
GWB and the Republicans have held gun laws at bay. Yes GWB is playing games with the AWB--but he knows (as Delay and others have said) that it will never make it to his desk.


Yeah, sure, just like he knew the Supreme Court would strike the Campaign Finance Reform Bill for him too, right?

Bush played political chicken with the first amendment, and just plain lost.

Now you say its ok or him to play chicken with the second amendment?

When a party's platform is basically "The Democrats will screw you a little more than we will", its time to find a new party.
 
Now you say its ok or him to play chicken with the second amendment?

I don't think anyone is saying that. Bashing Bush on gun control issues is just adding fuel to the fire that the extreme left wing is dancing around. All rhetoric, no substance. If he signs a renewal, bash away. Until then, you are just supporting the Kerry campaign.
 
If he signs a renewal, bash away.
It'll be a little late at that point, won't it?

If he is so hot on 2nd amendment rights, why doesn't he rescind daddy's executive order banning AW importation?

Why doesn't he issue some pardons for people the ATF put in jail on paperwork charges?

Why doesn't he just order the ATF to stop prosecuting people for owning illegal "assault weapons"?

He could do any of that, you know. He would just need to make a phone call.

He could even do something really radical like propose repealing the NFA, or GCA.

If he is such a big fan of gun owners, and your rights, why doesn't he do any of that?

Perhaps its a vast left-wing conspiracy, and he isn't doing it because it would give the Democrats more power? Right, I'm sure thats it.

He'll do it right as soon as he is reelected, and doesn't need to worry about reprisals.
 
It'll be a little late at that point, won't it?

No. It'll be justified at that point. The man hasn't signed the AWB renewal. Until he does, bashing him over it is a bit premature and serves no other purpose than to get more conservatives all worked up over something that might happen. Again, it only serves to further the cause of the left...who have obviously been studying Sun Tzu and applying their lessons to politics.
 
Fix, I am not sure what you are saying makes sense to me.

You say not to bash Bush til he signs the AWB, is that right?

You don't think Bush should be cajoled for saying he supports the bill?

Does that only apply to Republicans? or Democrats also?

Should we not bash the Democratic nominee until he signs the AWB renewal?
 
The man hasn't signed the AWB renewal.
Yet.

He promised he would.

He showed what he thinks of his duty to uphold the Constitution the day he signed the Patriot Act.

pax

Bill Clinton made it illegal for me to own a 15 round magazine. George W. Bush made it impossible for me to get away with it. -- Shootin' Buddy
 
What I'm saying is very simple. If you want to withdraw your support for Bush (which I am personally considering doing myself), do so in silence (with the obvious exception of voicing your displeasure directly to his organization). Doing otherwise does nothing at this point but help the Kerry campaign. The reality of the situation is very simple indeed. At this stage of the game, it looks like Kerry is going to get the nod. Once he does, anything that drags Bush down, boosts Kerry up. Sad but true.

Controversial statement? Absolutely. Hard to understand? Possibly.

If Kerry read this thread, would he be happy to see the anti-Bush sentiments expressed?
 
If you want to withdraw your support for Bush...
You're implying that he had our support in the first place.
If Kerry read this thread, would he be happy to see the anti-Bush sentiments expressed?
...why does it matter? Oh no! Not a happy presidental candidate! Run! Run away! He might smile at us! ;)
 
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