Mad Chemist
Member
Well good for you.
I predict insults fly and thread is locked in...3..2....1
How to deal with a forcible rape?
- Thread starter Old Guy
- Start date
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Well good for you.
I predict insults fly and thread is locked in...3..2....1
Deanimator
Member
You wouldn't call the police?
Cannonball888
Member
Kersey: You believe in Jesus...
Rapist: Yes, I do.
Kersey: Well, you're gonna meet him
mljdeckard
Member
In Utah, if you act in defense of a third party, you have all of the rights that they have. You also have all of the LIABILITIES that they have. Meaning, if you jump in and start killing people when you aren't ABSOLUTELY sure of the situation, you have a BIG problem.
I would be very, VERY careful about intervening in any situation I perceived as rape. Yell stop, pull out your phone, perhaps, depending on the situation put a hand on my weapon without pulling it, but I WOULD NOT pull and shoot immediately. WHY? Because there is a possibility one of two things will happen.
1. I pull and permanently stop the rapist's actions. The 'victim' pushes what is left of him off of her, and yells at me; "What are you doing?! We were playing a sex game and you killed him?!" Where I live we call this situation manslaughter.
2. I pull and shoot the bad guy. The police come and get statements from everyone. I tell the police that I saw a violent felony in progress and I acted to stop it. (Through my lawyer.) They ask her to confirm this, and she doesn't feel like talking. She doesn't want to go to the hospital to run a rape kit. All she wants to do is go home, take a bath, and sleep. She won't give a statement. So the police ask her friends, and they all say that the rapist was her boyfriend, and they had a sexual relationship for the past several months, and it seems very unlikely that he would rape her. Bottom line, the only one who says it was a rape is ME. SEE #1.
I have a VERY short list of friends and family members I would act do defend with deadly force. I have FAMILY MEMBERS I wouldn't act to help, because their lifestyle is such that I would not know for sure that they aren't an active party in whatever terrible thing that I am shooting to stop. The people I would act for are people I not only have a strong knowledge of their background and lifestyle, I care enough about them to go to prison for them if I'm wrong. This makes it a VERY narrow list indeed. Think about it.
I would be very, VERY careful about intervening in any situation I perceived as rape. Yell stop, pull out your phone, perhaps, depending on the situation put a hand on my weapon without pulling it, but I WOULD NOT pull and shoot immediately. WHY? Because there is a possibility one of two things will happen.
1. I pull and permanently stop the rapist's actions. The 'victim' pushes what is left of him off of her, and yells at me; "What are you doing?! We were playing a sex game and you killed him?!" Where I live we call this situation manslaughter.
2. I pull and shoot the bad guy. The police come and get statements from everyone. I tell the police that I saw a violent felony in progress and I acted to stop it. (Through my lawyer.) They ask her to confirm this, and she doesn't feel like talking. She doesn't want to go to the hospital to run a rape kit. All she wants to do is go home, take a bath, and sleep. She won't give a statement. So the police ask her friends, and they all say that the rapist was her boyfriend, and they had a sexual relationship for the past several months, and it seems very unlikely that he would rape her. Bottom line, the only one who says it was a rape is ME. SEE #1.
I have a VERY short list of friends and family members I would act do defend with deadly force. I have FAMILY MEMBERS I wouldn't act to help, because their lifestyle is such that I would not know for sure that they aren't an active party in whatever terrible thing that I am shooting to stop. The people I would act for are people I not only have a strong knowledge of their background and lifestyle, I care enough about them to go to prison for them if I'm wrong. This makes it a VERY narrow list indeed. Think about it.
I would act on behalf of the victim. I would definitely make sure that what I see going on is truly a rape and not a pair with an odd fetish.
I don't think my conscience could let me just wander by and say "it is none of my business". I would hope a stranger wouldn't wander by while my wife or daughter was getting raped.
I don't think my conscience could let me just wander by and say "it is none of my business". I would hope a stranger wouldn't wander by while my wife or daughter was getting raped.
mljdeckard
Member
Ok dumptruck, what exactly would you to to make sure?
Ask her if she needs help but be prepared to draw if it is a rapist who looks to kill the lone witness. Like others have said, I don't want to be put in the crappy position of having the couple throw you under the bus in court because you drew a firearm on two sexual deviants.
Search terms: Sharia law, non-consensual, rape, administration nominee
There be new rights found in the constitution all the time, I'm just waiting to see whether the right to force others to live under Sharia law is part of our evolving document.
There be new rights found in the constitution all the time, I'm just waiting to see whether the right to force others to live under Sharia law is part of our evolving document.
mljdeckard
Member
(Walks up to couple in the process of having what appears to be a violent sexual encounter,) (In Dwight Schrute voice,) "Ma'am, pardon me, but I notice that you are in the process of being raped. Before I act to protect you, I want to make sure that this is in fact a rape, and that I'm not interrupting some kind of ....creative consensual sex. Do you require assistance at this time?"
They might stay oblivious. She might say yes, and then when her heart rate drops, she will change her mind. SHE MIGHT ATTACK YOU.
Just call the police. Make sure you talk loudly enough that everyone KNOWS you are calling the police. Let them muddle through the process of getting her story straight, appropriate testing, and sorting out whether or not there is a crime and evidence to prosecute. You can be a witness to the prosecution. IF YOU ARE CHARGED WITH HOMICIDE OR MANSLAUGHTER, you will be faced with the question of whether or not SHE will be willing to testify on YOUR behalf.
You do not live in the age of chivalry, where a gallant man acting to defend the honor of an innocent maiden always gets the benefit of the doubt.
They might stay oblivious. She might say yes, and then when her heart rate drops, she will change her mind. SHE MIGHT ATTACK YOU.
Just call the police. Make sure you talk loudly enough that everyone KNOWS you are calling the police. Let them muddle through the process of getting her story straight, appropriate testing, and sorting out whether or not there is a crime and evidence to prosecute. You can be a witness to the prosecution. IF YOU ARE CHARGED WITH HOMICIDE OR MANSLAUGHTER, you will be faced with the question of whether or not SHE will be willing to testify on YOUR behalf.
You do not live in the age of chivalry, where a gallant man acting to defend the honor of an innocent maiden always gets the benefit of the doubt.
Mr.510
Member
I would draw and then ask the woman if she required assistance. I'm not going to give him a chance to draw on or charge me before my weapon is out. If her answer is "yes" order the BG to the ground. I would not point my gun at him until he was clear of her, unless things escalated and immediate force was required. As soon as he was on the ground I would call 911. If he did not comply I would immediately call 911. If he had a visible weapon, regardless of what it was, I would stop him by force as soon as she replied that she needed assistance. If she decides not to testify on my behalf there is a weapon at the scene, helping to prove my justification of lethal force. Hopefully by the time force is required I'm connected with 911 and the tape will illustrate what's really going down: Woman screaming, me ordering him off, etc. Some say you should call 911 first, to CYA. I understand that thinking but do not agree with it. I am using the threat of deadly force to stop a rape with the very real possibility of rapid escalation to murder, possibly of both her and me. When I surprise the BG it's going to be with a .45 in my hand, not a cell phone!
To those that say they would "do nothing" all I can say is that it's true you have no legal obligation to help a stranger... but you sure as hell have a moral one. If you could live with yourself after a woman was raped in front of you and you did nothing you are CLEARLY on the wrong forum.
To those that say they would "do nothing" all I can say is that it's true you have no legal obligation to help a stranger... but you sure as hell have a moral one. If you could live with yourself after a woman was raped in front of you and you did nothing you are CLEARLY on the wrong forum.
rscalzo
Member
And you would prove the ages how? The resulting civil suit would take minutes to win along with the females probable filing of a suit for mental anguish in the death of her boyfriend. Attempting to prove a statutory assault is best left up to the courts.
Neocode
Member
Some of the posts in this thread are sickening.
Based on the content of some of the posts (the minority, Thank God) we're turning into a nation of lawsuit fearing cowards.
If I believed I was witnessing a rape, I'd intervene. How, when, where, etc would be dependent on the particular situation. But no question about it, I'd intervene.
Based on the content of some of the posts (the minority, Thank God) we're turning into a nation of lawsuit fearing cowards.
If I believed I was witnessing a rape, I'd intervene. How, when, where, etc would be dependent on the particular situation. But no question about it, I'd intervene.
mljdeckard
Member
So, Mr. 510, you would draw BEFORE you knew deadly force was necessary?
Neocode, I carry to protect those I love from harm. If I wind cleaned out, in prison, or both, I wouldn't be doing a very good job, would I? It's not OUR fault that this crime and the circumstances surrounding it are murky. BUT THEY ARE.
Neocode, I carry to protect those I love from harm. If I wind cleaned out, in prison, or both, I wouldn't be doing a very good job, would I? It's not OUR fault that this crime and the circumstances surrounding it are murky. BUT THEY ARE.
To be fair I knew the woman involved in the following before I stepped in, but the point still applies.
Several years ago I intervened in a disturbance outside my apartment. it was a man and woman in a heated argument and the guy slapped the woman a couple of times and not in a playful way. As I began crossing the street I asked at almost a yell,
"Is there a problem here?".
The man immediately answered "NO!" at a louder volume.
I drop my volume a little as I am now within 10 feet of the two
"That's not the way that it sounds from over there"
(I pointed back to my building).
The guy then tells me"We're fine! You can just leave"
I look at the gal and she does NOT look fine. I decide rather than to get into a pissing contest, to try and take the choice away from him
"I'll leave when SHE tells me to" I point to her
We all stand there for a couple of seconds looking at each other. I then ask the woman,
"Do you want me to leave?"
She tells me in a very small voice "No"
Rather than getting confrontational I just stand and look at the guy thinking, (Great... now that the hell do I do?)
There is still some distance between me and the fellow in question, and by this point he is calming down a little. He tells me...
"Just let us talk... it's ok."
Rather than let things escalate I then say to the woman "all right, but I am going to be right there...." (I point to the steps to my building) "....If you need me" and I walk over and sit down. They talked for a few minutes more and he got in his truck and drove away, she looked at me, got in her vehicle and drove in the other direction.
I talked to her later and sorted out exactly what happened and why and the whole thing was resolved eventually.
The point is, I have discovered through this and a couple of other experiences, if you approach a situation, a well verbalized "what the Hell?" even at a distance will usually get people's attention and in most situations will usually open up opportunities for one or more of the parties to indicate what is indeed 'the Hell'.
....JMTC......
Several years ago I intervened in a disturbance outside my apartment. it was a man and woman in a heated argument and the guy slapped the woman a couple of times and not in a playful way. As I began crossing the street I asked at almost a yell,
"Is there a problem here?".
The man immediately answered "NO!" at a louder volume.
I drop my volume a little as I am now within 10 feet of the two
"That's not the way that it sounds from over there"
(I pointed back to my building).
The guy then tells me"We're fine! You can just leave"
I look at the gal and she does NOT look fine. I decide rather than to get into a pissing contest, to try and take the choice away from him
"I'll leave when SHE tells me to" I point to her
We all stand there for a couple of seconds looking at each other. I then ask the woman,
"Do you want me to leave?"
She tells me in a very small voice "No"
Rather than getting confrontational I just stand and look at the guy thinking, (Great... now that the hell do I do?)
There is still some distance between me and the fellow in question, and by this point he is calming down a little. He tells me...
"Just let us talk... it's ok."
Rather than let things escalate I then say to the woman "all right, but I am going to be right there...." (I point to the steps to my building) "....If you need me" and I walk over and sit down. They talked for a few minutes more and he got in his truck and drove away, she looked at me, got in her vehicle and drove in the other direction.
I talked to her later and sorted out exactly what happened and why and the whole thing was resolved eventually.
The point is, I have discovered through this and a couple of other experiences, if you approach a situation, a well verbalized "what the Hell?" even at a distance will usually get people's attention and in most situations will usually open up opportunities for one or more of the parties to indicate what is indeed 'the Hell'.
....JMTC......
Mr.510
Member
The premise is an apparent violent rape. Yes, I draw first in this situation. I don't point my gun at anybody, that *could* be ADW if they are just a couple knuckleheads getting their kicks. Plus I don't know if deadly force is necessary yet. But if it is I'm not going to be victim number two! Maybe the guy has the girl pinned down by her forearms and his gun is sitting on the ground next to her head where I can't see it? Does he have a knife in one of his hands? I'm not taking that chance with my weapon holstered. There is already an apparent violent felony occurring in front of me in which deadly force is justified. I am using the threat of force against him to stop him from further harming his victim or me. Hopefully I don't even have to point my gun at him. I order him off, he complies, and everybody lives to see another day.
mljdeckard
Member
Read very carefully:
Your carry gun is NOT a tool to intimidate people. When you pull, your time for talking, negotiating, threatening, or projecting force is past. If you pull it trying to do any of these things, you have just become the idiot from the movies who stands there pointing a gun at someone while he talks. Imagine yourself explaining this through your lawyer, why it was necessary to pull at all if you stood there and pointed it for 30 seconds?
Your carry gun is NOT a tool to intimidate people. When you pull, your time for talking, negotiating, threatening, or projecting force is past. If you pull it trying to do any of these things, you have just become the idiot from the movies who stands there pointing a gun at someone while he talks. Imagine yourself explaining this through your lawyer, why it was necessary to pull at all if you stood there and pointed it for 30 seconds?
Travis Bickle
member
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2008
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Mr.510
Member
Drawing your weapon and holding it at the ready and pointing it at someone are two *entirely* different things. Once again, (mostly for those that don't read the whole thread): The premise of this discussion is that there appears to be a forcible rape occurring in front of me. Based on my knowledge, at that moment, I can use deadly force to stop the rapist. That option, for me, is the absolute last resort. However, I am not going to give the rapist a two second (realistic under stress) head start at shooting or stabbing the victim or myself. How long does it take to draw from my IWB and pull off a "rescue shot" to the BG's head if he goes for a gun on the ground? I certainly hope I never find out! Remember that his head is probably within a foot or two of the victim's head. I would do exactly as I've said previously. This is the only situation I can think of at the moment where I would draw, stand at the ready, and then ask ***? Her life is apparently at immediate risk and mine may be as well. I'm not living in the Old West and I'm not Wyatt Earp. There isn't a clear "time for talking" and then a "time for shooting". That's not how the real world works.... and it's probably not how it ever worked. If I am going to confront a violent felon who is raping another human being I am going to do it with my weapon at the ready. The second and a half saved may save two, or even three lives. Would you seriously wait until he went for a gun before you drew in this situation? If so you must be Jerry Miculek. Remember, the BG and victim aren't just close together, the are touching.
What's the worst that's going to happen if I draw, hold at the ready, and ask if she needs help? All outward appearances are that she is being raped. If they are a couple "role playing" at the very worst I have committed the crime of brandishing. I am willing to take that chance.
Remember, the BG and victim aren't just close together, the are touching. What's the worst that's going to happen if I draw, hold at the ready, and ask if she needs help? All outward appearances are that she is being raped. If they are a couple "role playing" at the very worst I have committed the crime of brandishing. I am willing to take that chance.
mljdeckard
Member
If your knowledge is incomplete, DON'T PULL. There is no asterisk next to this rule.
I have to agree that there are way too many cowards and paranoid guys in this forum. The fact that you would "do nothing" in a rape situation or can say "it's not my responcibility" makes me ill that you even lurk around here. I support gun rights for all the good that can be done by the honest average citizen with their guns. If you can walk by a scene like that and have the power (i.e. ability) to do something about it, and don't, that ranks you right under the scumbag actually committing the rape IMHO.
On the subject, I'd always draw my weapon on a questionable/illegal act in commission. If the perp is willing to break the law raping/robbing/murdering/etc.., I'm not gonna bet that they won't choose to exercize decency with me after stumbling on them.
The one situation I would shoot first without asking questions would be if I came and found on of my daughters or my wife being raped.
On the subject, I'd always draw my weapon on a questionable/illegal act in commission. If the perp is willing to break the law raping/robbing/murdering/etc.., I'm not gonna bet that they won't choose to exercize decency with me after stumbling on them.
The one situation I would shoot first without asking questions would be if I came and found on of my daughters or my wife being raped.
DRZinn
Member
- Considering the legal risks involved and the possibility of under=penetration when shooting from the side, why no just a good kick in the ribs? Solves all the issues.
- If draw must = shoot, how about just putting my hand on it? How about unsnapping the holster? Drawing is one step in a continuum that may or may not end in firing. It allows me to be that much closer to firing if I need to.
- If draw must = shoot, how about just putting my hand on it? How about unsnapping the holster? Drawing is one step in a continuum that may or may not end in firing. It allows me to be that much closer to firing if I need to.
mljdeckard
Member
I said before, I would be PREPARED to draw, absolutely.
DRZinn
Member
So how is being prepared to draw different from drawing but being prepared to shoot? Different steps on the continuum, is all.
mljdeckard
Member
Because drawing is the point at which your focus must be dedicated to combat. Drawing is the point at which you must be able to articulate why it was legitimate self-defense and not brandishing. Once the gun comes out, someone is going to be explaining to the police why it was necessary. If you draw, watch and......WAIT, it isn't obvious that you were justified in drawing the gun in the first place.
If you draw, you must be committed to acting to stop the actions of someone. You may fire, they may surrender, they may run away. (Most armed encounters end with no shots fired.) But if you draw BEFORE you know what the situation is, you will be standing there with the gun in your hand, trying to get explanations from people, trying to make sure that they aren't thinking faster than you are, deciding with the adrenaline flowing and everyone talking at once whether or not you should shoot, re-holster, if you re-holster are you now vulnerable to a charge, would the guy just be defending himself in a fit of panic at that point, how long can you cover them, what if SHE is lying, that if she won't say anything at all? If she won't back me up when the police get here, are they going to charge ME? A few seconds will seem like eternity when you are holding a gun on someone.
DO. NOT. DRAW. UNTIL. YOU. ARE. SURE. If you can't be sure, you shouldn't draw. Witness. Call the police. Yell stop. Be READY to draw.
If you draw, you must be committed to acting to stop the actions of someone. You may fire, they may surrender, they may run away. (Most armed encounters end with no shots fired.) But if you draw BEFORE you know what the situation is, you will be standing there with the gun in your hand, trying to get explanations from people, trying to make sure that they aren't thinking faster than you are, deciding with the adrenaline flowing and everyone talking at once whether or not you should shoot, re-holster, if you re-holster are you now vulnerable to a charge, would the guy just be defending himself in a fit of panic at that point, how long can you cover them, what if SHE is lying, that if she won't say anything at all? If she won't back me up when the police get here, are they going to charge ME? A few seconds will seem like eternity when you are holding a gun on someone.
DO. NOT. DRAW. UNTIL. YOU. ARE. SURE. If you can't be sure, you shouldn't draw. Witness. Call the police. Yell stop. Be READY to draw.
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