How to make primers?

[eb in oregon]

How small, the video in #4 shows what they use for 1000 at a time from 3:48 to 4:38.

One at a time would be less expensive, almost free if you have a lathe and mill.

And how long do you think it would take to make 100 primers, punching them out and assembling them one at a time? Longer than it would take to load 100 cartridges? I've a lathe and a mill, the idea of making my own primers isn't an attractive idea. Try making your own gas checks first. They aren't so hard, but they are time consuming.

Oh, right, how difficult do you think it would be to put the exact same measure of primer compound in each of those handmade, one at a time primers? That's one of the critical attributes of primers that makes them so valuable. Consistency.

 

[Mycin]

Another point to consider is the proprietary nature of the manufacturing processes that are used to make primers.

You can just log into Amazon and buy a primer making machine.

This type of manufacturing automation (assembly of small detailed components) is quite tricky and the machines are typically custom designed in house by an engineering and machine shop crew that are highly experienced and specialized and have been improving the equipment incrementally over decades.

Your not going to find the plans for a primer assembly machine on-line. This type of manufacturing know how and expertise is usualy very closely guarded, as they may not have patent protection to prevent their competitors from knocking it off.

As someone with 20 years in industrial packaging I've been inside 75% of the factories in northern New England and many of them require signing a non-disclosure agreement before you can walk in their doors, and they don't allow cameras or even cell phones. One aerospace customer has cell phone blocking equipment on site, so you can't even get a signal once you pull into their parking lot. Even their scrap parts are serialized, tracked and destroyed to ensure no competitor examines them. Industrial espionage is a real thing (just ask China) and stealing technical secrets is a lot easier than paying the hefty price tag of developing them for yourself.

Step one would be to hire a senior production engineer (or a few) away from the existing manufacturers. Or maybe a recently retired one willing to spend a couple years helping put together the new production line for a hefty consulting fee.

 

[jmorris]

Longer than it would take to load 100 cartridges?

For me, right now? Yes, I can load 100 rounds in under 4 minutes. I have spent more time that that researching how to make priming compound and never made/reloaded a single primer.

However, how long it takes someone to perform a task is often equipment dependent.

 

[Blue68f100]

Should have bought Remington Ammo plant. Then you would have been setup and ready to roll.

 

[eb in oregon]

For me, right now? Yes, I can load 100 rounds in under 4 minutes. I have spent more time that that researching how to make priming compound and never made/reloaded a single primer.

However, how long it takes someone to perform a task is often equipment dependent.

A progressive press is cheating as you have suggested using a single stage press to punch out primer cups and anvils. One at a time. So tell us how long to load those 100 cartridges on a single stage press. And it's not necessarily the priming compound, it's the quantity, and it is a consistent and small quantity. Tell me you think you can make an overload by using a too large amount of priming compound. Just because someone thinks something is a good idea doesn't make it a good idea.

 

[WeekendReloader]

You can punch and form all the primer cups, then put them in a jig. Then use a pre-measured plate and squeegee in the primer paste. Then put the plate on top of the primer cup jig and bingo, 1000 primer cups with a consistent amount of primer compound. Then insert the anvils and press. Just like in the video that was posted. Once you have the pieces, putting them together wouldn't take that long. For personal use, it could be just another part of the reloading hobby.

I deal with factory automation all the time. Complex things get broken down into amazingly simple operations with dedicated jigs and machinery. Watch 'How It's Made' and you'll see how simple some of these machines are and what can be produced. Making the jigs should be easy for a machine shop with a mill and a lathe. I just don't want to be the guy with the mortar and pestle grinding up the primer compound.

 

[jmorris]

A progressive press is cheating as you have suggested using a single stage press to punch out primer cups and anvils. One at a time. So tell us how long to load those 100 cartridges on a single stage press. And it's not necessarily the priming compound, it's the quantity, and it is a consistent and small quantity. Tell me you think you can make an overload by using a too large amount of priming compound. Just because someone thinks something is a good idea doesn't make it a good idea.

I don’t think I ever suggested a single stage press to punch out cups and anvils. Time would be dependent on methods for sure.

Consistent and small quantities can be done too, what is the accuracy resolution and tolerance? As reloaders, we already deal with this at varying degrees of accuracy.

If there is room, I am sure I could make an “overload” using too much.

There is something to be said as far as the difference between can and should as well as people knowing their limits. That said, I bet the fellow making those primers 1000 at a time for Federal, in the first video posted in this thread doesn’t have a PHD in chemistry. Not that that would, in and of itself, make the process any more or less safe.

 

[eb in oregon]

How small, the video in #4 shows what they use for 1000 at a time from 3:48 to 4:38.

One at a time would be less expensive, almost free if you have a lathe and mill.

Does that not say "one at a time?" And now considering you are possibly a mechanical engineer maybe you can explain how you would adapt a progressive press to stamp out primer cups. I myself was a journeyman machinist for half a lifetime and I find the concept daunting. At best. And really "almost free" means your time and effort means nothing.

"That said, I bet the fellow making those primers 1000 at a time for Federal, in the first video posted in this thread doesn’t have a PHD in chemistry." He doesn't have to have one, he's a machine operator relying on those of the team supplying materials and chemicals to do their job as well and not make mistakes. And, just saying, but all ideas aren't necessarily good ideas. "Just because" isn't actually a great concept of thinking.

 

[eb in oregon]

I deal with factory automation all the time. Complex things get broken down into amazingly simple operations with dedicated jigs and machinery. Watch 'How It's Made' and you'll see how simple some of these machines are and what can be produced. Making the jigs should be easy for a machine shop with a mill and a lathe. I just don't want to be the guy with the mortar and pestle grinding up the primer compound.

But apparently you have never worked in a tool and die shop where a few thousands can be as good as an inch. It's almost funny how people can look at a video and then know how the entire process works. A lot of work and skull sweat goes into jigs and fixtures, and generally they are all designed by a talented mechanical engineer.

And I would remind you that the diameter of primers are measured in tenths of thousandths, not thousandths. As otherwise pressing them in might be difficult.

 

[WeekendReloader]

But apparently you have never worked in a tool and die shop where a few thousands can be as good as an inch. It's almost funny how people can look at a video and then know how the entire process works. A lot of work and skull sweat goes into jigs and fixtures, and generally they are all designed by a talented mechanical engineer.

And I would remind you that the diameter of primers are measured in tenths of thousandths, not thousandths. As otherwise pressing them in might be difficult.

I work on the automation side with the controls and motors to make all these things move together and in proper sequence, help design the concepts and our tool & die makers work their magic. Our company has many self-made automation machines / jigs / fixtures / stampers / formers / etc. for building precision assemblies. I understand tolerances and design for manufacture.
Get a talented person that understands how things go together and they can do it. We do things like this all the time. We just don't handle explosives.

 

[jmorris]

....maybe you can explain how you would adapt a progressive press to stamp out primer cups. I myself was a journeyman machinist for half a lifetime and I find the concept daunting. At best. And really "almost free" means your time and effort means nothing.

I wouldn’t use a progressive press, I would use punch presses, if were interested in manufacturing them for punching the disks, anvils and forming both, fed by a roll of stock. Not unlike the forming of cups 50 seconds into this video.


Yes, if I counted my time at my current going rate, I couldn’t afford a lot stuff I have made.

However, if I subtracted the money I have saved from otherwise spending it while I was focused on a “hobby problem”, that too would be substantial.

 

[Howa 9700]

As I recall, Boxer primers have only been around now for about 150 years. Throughout that time, quality, functioning primers have been made all over the world by any number of folks.....so we are not looking are reinventing the wheel. The technology is known or can easily be found and duplicated. And again, what I was suggesting was a commercial sized operation........one big enough to feed many of the new ammo companies that also rely on the big 4 for primers, plus reloaders. I was not thinkng home brew stuff.

But as important as anything, one not under the control of Vista Group. Having 3 of the 4 eggs in one basket ought to scare the pants off anyone interested in shooting. The wrong sort gets control of Vista and all the 2A stuff goes out the window. All you will have then is an expensive club or paperweight.

 

[eb in oregon]

We just don't handle explosives.

There is a vast difference between making "widgets" and working with explosives. And I've made parts from hay balers up to and including parts for nuclear power plants and submarines. And made a few jigs and fixtures. As for the "I work on the automation side with the controls and motors to make all these things move together and in proper sequence, help design the concepts and our tool & die makers work their magic. Our company has many self-made automation machines / jigs / fixtures / stampers / formers / etc. for building precision assemblies. I understand tolerances and design for manufacture." All you are saying is you work with a talented, experienced, and educated team. And not all on your lonesome. Right?

 

[WeekendReloader]

There is a vast difference between making "widgets" and working with explosives. And I've made parts from hay balers up to and including parts for nuclear power plants and submarines. And made a few jigs and fixtures. As for the "I work on the automation side with the controls and motors to make all these things move together and in proper sequence, help design the concepts and our tool & die makers work their magic. Our company has many self-made automation machines / jigs / fixtures / stampers / formers / etc. for building precision assemblies. I understand tolerances and design for manufacture." All you are saying is you work with a talented, experienced, and educated team. And not all on your lonesome. Right?

Correct, I am part of a team. If you are opening a manufacturing facility, you are going to need talented team members.
This is old technology. There is nothing new and revolutionary in making primers. A lot of attention to detail in order to hit the tolerances, yes, and care in handling the explosive material, yes, but the actual processes are 150 years old.

If I were charged with putting together a manufacturing facility that made primers, I know the appropriate talented people that could do it on a first name basis. Machine operators, tool & die makers, production managers, schedulers, buyers, etc. I would need to find someone that could handle the explosive details and regulations, but those are all known and documented. This would take time and a lot of money, sure. If I won the Powerball, I still wouldn't do it. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. Time and money can solve a lot of problems people think are impossible.

 

[eb in oregon]

As I recall, Boxer primers have only been around now for about 150 years. Throughout that time, quality, functioning primers have been made all over the world by any number of folks.....so we are not looking are reinventing the wheel. The technology is known or can easily be found and duplicated. And again, what I was suggesting was a commercial sized operation........one big enough to feed many of the new ammo companies that also rely on the big 4 for primers, plus reloaders. I was not thinkng home brew stuff.

But as important as anything, one not under the control of Vista Group. Having 3 of the 4 eggs in one basket ought to scare the pants off anyone interested in shooting. The wrong sort gets control of Vista and all the 2A stuff goes out the window. All you will have then is an expensive club or paperweight.

The thing is that no business has ever been successful in the long term banking on a temporary shortage. It would cost millions of dollars in investment to design and build a factory merely to produce primers. If it were easy and an obtainable goal, don't you think those company's already manufacturing primers would expand? As for the paperweight stuff, people were slaughtering each other for thousands of years before firearms were invented.

 

[WeekendReloader]

The thing is that no business has ever been successful in the long term banking on a temporary shortage. It would cost millions of dollars in investment to design and build a factory merely to produce primers. If it were easy and an obtainable goal, don't you think those company's already manufacturing primers would expand? As for the paperweight stuff, people were slaughtering each other for thousands of years before firearms were invented.

I totally agree. The market is too volatile for investing millions and millions of dollars to start a primer business. Someone said earlier in the thread that all primer manufacturers do it to support their in-house ammunition production. This makes sense. Sig is getting into the primer business to support its own ammunition production so it is not held hostage by the others. This is a strategic plan to stabilize its primary business.

 

[Howa 9700]

Sig will be making primers? If so, EXCELLENT! Exactly what I was suggesting someone ought to do.

But.....in for a penny, in for a pound. Hopefully when they get around to deciding on capacity, they up it by a bit to help supply all the other ammo makers and reloaders.

Also curious their ammunition plant is in same neighborhood as Remington plant in AR. Not line of sight.....but pretty close. But at least in a friendly Midwest state.

 

[WeekendReloader]

Sig will be making primers? If so, EXCELLENT! Exactly what I was suggesting someone ought to do.

But.....in for a penny, in for a pound. Hopefully when they get around to deciding on capacity, they up it by a bit to help supply all the other ammo makers and reloaders.

Also curious their ammunition plant is in same neighborhood as Remington plant in AR. Not line of sight.....but pretty close. But at least in a friendly Midwest state.

From what I read 'on the internet'... They are starting production to feed their internal demand this year. They won't be producing 100% of their needs at first and will still be buying from other primer manufacturers. Then they will decide when and how fast to ramp up to meet the majority of their internal needs. The "ramping up" part may take years and they may or may not ever get to being fully vertically integrated. I'm sure the business climate will dictate how they proceed.

 

[N555]

What's it take?
Well these guys bought the old lone star arsenal in 2013, then spent 10s of millions of dollars to modernize and restart primer production over the last few years.
So they had a facility built for doing great the thing, bunkers to store it in. They are building their primer lines in "cells" that can quickly react to market changes, supposedly no other manufacturer does that, the other guys have to retool the line and that takes a week or weeks assuming they have the tooling.

Expansive industries believes the corporate d-bags in the other 2 companies see primer making as real high risk and don't want to spend a 100 million of dollars to build a new factory because they think guns or ammo will get banned and all of a sudden they won't have a market.

 

[CQB45ACP]

What's it take?
Well these guys bought the old lone star arsenal in 2013, then spent 10s of millions of dollars to modernize and restart primer production over the last few years.
So they had a facility built for doing great the thing, bunkers to store it in. They are building their primer lines in "cells" that can quickly react to market changes, supposedly no other manufacturer does that, the other guys have to retool the line and that takes a week or weeks assuming they have the tooling.

Expansive industries believes the corporate d-bags in the other 2 companies see primer making as real high risk and don't want to spend a 100 million of dollars to build a new factory because they think guns or ammo will get banned and all of a sudden they won't have a market.

Didn’t you start another thread on this? The company’s claims are bogus. I don’t know about this video nor the guy rambling on—haven’t watched it—but Expansion professing to already having invested $100 million is utter nonsense.

 

[Howa 9700]

From the perspective of the OP.....(me)........I am in the camp of "wait and see". From what I can tell, products from this startup are being marketed under name of "Expansion Industries". They have a website and appear to be selling live ammo:

https://www.expansion-ammunition.com/

Did some searching and found one small obscure website.....Southern Defense......that at least has EXP primers showing on the website, but "out of stock".

Personally, I'm rooting for them. If they are legit and make it, it can only be a positive development for anyone with a shoot'n iron. Unless and until they start asking for investments.........money for pre-orders, etc........they have not harmed me. If they are legit and succeed or if they don't, I won't be hurt or helped one way or the other. A year ago after this thread faded to black, I took advice given to heart. I'm already set for life.

If I was really concerned, I'd make that 8 hour drive to Texarkana and show up at the gate and ask for a tour.

 

[CQB45ACP]

From the perspective of the OP.....(me)........I am in the camp of "wait and see". From what I can tell, products from this startup are being marketed under name of "Expansion Industries". They have a website and appear to be selling live ammo:

https://www.expansion-ammunition.com/

Did some searching and found one small obscure website.....Southern Defense......that at least has EXP primers showing on the website, but "out of stock".

Personally, I'm rooting for them. If they are legit and make it, it can only be a positive development for anyone with a shoot'n iron. Unless and until they start asking for investments.........money for pre-orders, etc........they have not harmed me. If they are legit and succeed or if they don't, I won't be hurt or helped one way or the other. A year ago after this thread faded to black, I took advice given to heart. I'm already set for life.

If I was really concerned, I'd make that 8 hour drive to Texarkana and show up at the gate and ask for a tour.

It’s about 17 hours for me and I might take it for a real deal. (I drove to St. Louis many years ago to buy Coors beer before it was shipped east of the Mississippi. Was single and liked driving.)

I looked on Google street view and it doesn’t seem anything has been done to the exterior of the old ammo plant which is derelict looking. But I’m no expert and who knows when pictures were taken or whether lots of work has been done inside.

I did see where the ceo went to Liberty University (so did my boys). I know non-Christians can and do go to Liberty, he may be one, and that’s fine, but it really ticks me off when professed Christians aren’t on the up and up.

I too hope this is legit.

 

[Howa 9700]

If they are legit.....and are up and running........I would think there would be some more press releases, videos, etc. As starved for entertainment (and ammo and primers) as the shooting world is, I'd think that would generate more free publicity than they could ever hope to buy. And that is good advice freely given and worth every cent folks pay for it.

From what I can tell, they have focused strictly on ammo for the high volume shooters. Small pistol and small rifle primers.....and ammo to match.......9mm, 223 etc. Only a few product lines and crank it out in volume. That would generate some necessary cash flow to keep the ship afloat.

BTW, Southern Defense website had their primers priced at $80 per K......if they had any.

 

[N555]

Didn’t you start another thread on this? The company’s claims are bogus. I don’t know about this video nor the guy rambling on—haven’t watched it—but Expansion professing to already having invested $100 million is utter nonsense.

Context. To me it sounded like they have spent 100 million since they started in 2013.
I work at a cheese plant where they have spent about 2.2 billion on that place since it was built from a hole in the ground in 2006. The last expansion was 220 million.
Another company I know pretty well spent a billion getting an old closed down tire plant reopened and modernized making tires again.
Stuff is expensive, so 100 million is completely within the realm of possibility.

 

[N555]

If they are legit.....and are up and running........I would think there would be some more press releases, videos, etc. As starved for entertainment (and ammo and primers) as the shooting world is, I'd think that would generate more free publicity than they could ever hope to buy. And that is good advice freely given and worth every cent folks pay for it.

From what I can tell, they have focused strictly on ammo for the high volume shooters. Small pistol and small rifle primers.....and ammo to match.......9mm, 223 etc. Only a few product lines and crank it out in volume. That would generate some necessary cash flow to keep the ship afloat.

BTW, Southern Defense website had their primers priced at $80 per K......if they had any.

Sounds like they understand the value of operational security. No one hearing about them may be by design.

Pretty sure they said they haven't shipped any primers to distributors yet. But that didn't keep some of them from listing the product on their website, but as out of stock.

If this turns out to be true after all the BS vista and olen has pulled I may only buy from them, or at least go to them first, even if they are more expensive.
Kind of like how I do with RMR bullets
I buy most of of my 45 cal bullets from them, nearly all 9mm and normally all of my .224 bullets from them. When RMR makes a 147gr HP then I'll buy all my 9mm bullets from them. But it helps RMR bullets is usually cheaper or the same as the big guys. I won't buy from the big guys who were gouging the hell out of us unless I have to.