Preparing for an attack!

[Magnumdood]

Rottweiler

I have one word for ya; Rottweiler

I am in no way trying to downplay the need for training. If one intends to use a firearm as a means of self-defense or defense of an innocent third party, then one has an absolute obligation to society to train and train and train in realistic (as possible) scenarios. One has an obligation to attend as many training schools as money and work will allow, and one has an obligation to continually train and update oneself on new training techniques and new case law regarding the use of force. Too many people, peace officers included, do the bare minimum. At least the police, at a bare minimum, must show proficiency (70%) from a static line. Many departments have gone much farther, and rightfully so; case law dictates police training must be realistic. Far, far too many people get all a twitter, and research, and ask their cop friends what the best gun to buy would be, and get all tingly when they finally buy a new gun. Some may even pass some very brief CCW training (training in name only). They may even carry the gun a few times, until they realize it's a chore to carry concealed or even open. Then, the gun goes in the top of the closet, or in a sock drawer, and is largely forgotten. I ran in to the untrained gun-in-the-sock-drawer type far more often while I was a Deputy Sheriff in Texas than I did a gun owner and carrier who was serious and trained seriously.

Back to the Rottweiler; the Sheriff of any county is responsible for the security of the jail and the courts. This meant we transported the convicted felons to the Walls Unit in Huntsville, Texas where intake into the Texas Prison system takes place. I've talked to literally thousands of inmates, some awaiting trial and some convicted and on the way to Huntsville. To a person the bad guys stated the one way to best harden your home against burglary or home invasion is a dog. Turds are lazy, and in almost every case won't attack unless they are either physically superior or feel like they can surprise you. They can't surprise that dog, even the little ankle-biters, and they sure don't want to encroach on a Rottweiler's territory.

Train, train and train some more.
If allowed, get a Rottweiler.

 

[EmGeeGeorge]

glaser safety slugs

 

[Fred Fuller]

I wonder how many of the responders here with families at home have had opportunity to practice what they preach, in the middle of the night, suddenly awakened from a sound sleep with multiple armed thugs breaking in to steal, rape, maim & kill???

Not many.

Because home invasions happen very seldom to people who are not participating in the drug trade or some other criminal activity. Home invasions are rare among people who are not the intended victims of a planned kidnapping for whatever reason (either for ransom or as a hostage to further some other criminal activity). Home invasions happen more often to non-criminally involved people who are perceived for whatever reason as having 'more stuff' or 'better stuff' than others in the neighborhood.

But home invasions with plain ordinary john q. public as a victim are pretty rare. That's why very few people ever have to deal with one. Lots of people on various fora seem to love to obsess over home invasions, and true enough, they can happen and occasionally do happen. And it is pretty much a worst case thing, if it does happen to you. A realistic appraisal of the odds is in order here, though.

But Spirit 1, let me ask you a few questions. A few serious quesions. With my moderator hat on, too.

OK, you're worried about someone invading your home and victimizing your family.

So what have YOU done to prepare YOURSELF to deal with the situation, should it happen? Do you have any military experience? Are you now/were you ever a LEO? If not, what kinds of formal training have you ever gotten for yourself or received on the job that would better help you deal with an emergency on this scale? Have you ever been an EMT, a fireman, or done any other sort of work that requires you to perform specific duties under pressure of life and death?

I can tell you that there are people here who have done all those things, and other fairly demanding things as well. I know who they are. I might even be one myself in some ways.

And yet you airily blow in here, and demand instant answers to questions that fairly clearly demonstrate a fairly basic lack of understanding on your part of the nature of the situation you profess to be so worried about.

Well, some of us have tried to help. It seems not to have worked to your satisfaction, and now you roll out all huffy over it. Well bubba, if you're so tactically efficient, experienced and capable already- then what the hell do you need answers from us for?

I look at Strategies and Tactics as a one-room schoolhouse for this particular subject. There are lots of fora out there on the web where you get nothing but chest pounding, bloodthirstiness, kill-em-all-let-god-sort-em-out, I'm the baddest thing since black powder attitude. We try to constrain that stuff here.

There are a few other forums out there that present a higher bar to entry than S&T does. You have to 'be somebody' (LE, military, or a former student of whoever is running the forum) or demonstrate your formal training history, or at minimum join under your real name and email address, and then behave to forum standards to be allowed to stay. But as I have said before, I think of S&T as a one-room schoolhouse, simply because not everyone can or will become a cop, pull a hitch in the military, go to formal gun school, or whatever.

But what this is NOT, is kindergarten.

So you can back off on the throttles a little bit, and try working with people who are willing to try and help you (while ignoring as best you can those who are less than helpful without violating the standards here). Or you can push the envelope howevermuch further, which I won't like and which you probably won't like either.

Your call...

lpl

 

[Hunter125]

Glaser rounds might help overpenetration from your side of things. Won't help the bullets from the bad guys guns, but it's something

 

[Avenger29]

[strike]glaser safety slugs[/strike]

Hit what you're aiming at with effective rounds. Rounds that you can actually afford to practice with. Rounds that you can afford to fill magazines with.

NOT rounds that cost over $3 per round while not providing any increase over standard JHP SD loads.

 

[Jeff White]

Not picking on you, but... it's more of a possibility then you think, and it's getting worse all of the time.

You got some stats to back that up? The FBI Uniform Crime Reports show a distinct downward trend in violent crime.

If you are worried about a home invasion attack there are a few things you can do to defend yourself.

1) Don't live a criminal lifestyle or live with people who do.

2) Don't associate with people who live a criminal lifestyle or are involved in the drug trade even as a user.

3) Don't associate with mentally unstable people or have romantic relationships with them or allow anyone who does to live in your household.

4) Don't keep large amounts of cash, easily transferable securities or other high value, easily transportable items in your home. If you must, don't let it become common knowledge, even to other members of the household.

5) Don't have a job like bank branch manager or jewelry store manager or live with someone who does without having professional security advice, get it and follow it.

6) Harden your residence, fences, motion sensor lights, alarm systems, good locks, doors and windows, dogs (but don't depend on an animal that hasn't been specifically trained for security to provide anything more then early warning and don't count on that).

Follow these six simple rules and your chances of ever needing to worry about peripheral issuse like over penetration in a gunfight is almost zero. Now these aren't fun and dramatic things to discuss and no one is going to impress anyone else on an internet forum with what a bad dude, not to be messed with they are. But those are the things you can do that will keep you the safest. If you are in a gunfight in your home, you've already failed in your mission to keep yourself and your family safe.

 

[ilbob]

I have one word for ya; Rottweiler

Interesting chart I found on another web site recently.

I also read somewhere that there are now almost 100,000 pit bulls in Chicago alone.

 

[ilbob]

Follow these six simple rules and your chances of ever needing to worry about peripheral issuse like over penetration in a gunfight is almost zero. Now these aren't fun and dramatic things to discuss and no one is going to impress anyone else on an internet forum with what a bad dude, not to be messed with they are. But those are the things you can do that will keep you the safest. If you are in a gunfight in your home, you've already failed in your mission to keep yourself and your family safe.

7. Attack kitty.

My take on it is that crime stats are like a lot of stats. The people providing them are manipulating them. I have my doubts that serious crime is really going down, just like I doubt inflation is almost nil.

 

[Fred Fuller]

It might also be worth noticing that, when would-be home invaders confront armed homeowners, the home invaders generally come up short. I know of no complete record of all crimes that happen in the USA, but there are a few databases that do list certain crimes that make it into various media; and at least one of those databases applies searchable tags to the stories it compiles.

Anyone interested can take a look at the 2009 media reports listed as home invasions from Clayton Cramer's blog at http://www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/home invasion.html . It might be worth while.

lpl

 

[Shadow 7D]

Well for those with the time and money, you can buy ballistic wall board, basically nylon composite boards, or spend the money and buy Kevlar cloth and give "wall paper" a new name.

But most realistically is that unless you live in a concrete or brick (maybe log) house any missed rounds will exit your structure. As for hardening an existing structure, that cost lots of money.

But If you want to build, might I suggest cinder block, ugly but cheap, or Insulated Foam Form concrete blocks, with poured internal rooms to create safe rooms. Thats about all I can think of. If you didn't build the place you live, and are concerned about over penetration, I hate to say, but the best I can think of is Box-O-Truth

www.theboxotruth.com/

 

[Magnumdood]

Sure seems funny that a very large percentage of threads on gun forums regard over-penetration of ammo in a domestic residence. I must be nuts for ever imagining to solve the problem before it happens.

I take it that among your areas of little to no experience include building structures and the associated costs. Your suggestions cost MONEY. I don't care whether you incorporate bullet-proof walls during the building, or convert the walls after the fact; it's gonna cost a bundle. Home builders have standardized plans, and when you deviate get ready to open up the ol' checkbook.

What about people in apartments? What about people in regular middle-class neighborhoods? How about a trailer park? Do you know what a trailer is constructed of? Paneling and 2x2 pine framing and thin sheet metal. You could penetrate the walls of a trailer with a pellet rifle.

So, YES, people suggest training, which will allow you to hit your friggin' target. Hopefully, you will have picked a round that stays in the bad guy.

Sheesh.

 

[lobo9er]

my wife asked me what i was reading. I replied "reading about nailing two layers of plywood to all the bed room and exterior walls"

 

[Spirit 1]

It may take a couple of posts just to reply! First, thanks to those who actually addressed the questions posed. Possibly it will help another one day!

Regarding this reply: Quote:
Oh, and for those who suggest I train, move, take care of etc & etc. this wasn't about me at all. I'm near 100% secure, fully prepared ahead of time, entirely capable of dealing with any imaginable situation that requires defensive actions, have no neighbors and can shoot any gun I want in any direction safely.

Whew!
Can any of you mere mortals imagine that kind of comfort and piece of mind?"

'Scuse me, who are you? You insult me openly to my face because I said I've fully prepared myself just as others suggest that one should? Do you have any earthly idea where or how I live, what I do, what I've done and what my skill levels are, or my defensive capabilities in hardware? No, but you choose to put me down right off the top, instead of contributing something useful to this thread.

So happens I live in a remote location easily accessed only by 4WD. I can hear someone coming 10 minutes before they arrive, unless they're into mountain climbing, along with considerable obstacles to that, in the dark. Once here it's near impossible to determine where I live. If one might they still have to figure out how to get in. Within all this I can safely shoot in any direction with no danger to innocents, and yeah, I sure do know how and what to shoot.

Is that worthy of insults, something wrong with that? The point of this thread, again, is not for my sake, but for the sake of others. All my bases are covered, best as I can.

 

[Spirit 1]

Thanks for suggestions: hso for the 'Smarthome Remote' & other suggestions, Conwict for the plated bookshelf, Randy, for validation that preparation is not necessarily mindless paranoia, Bob for the tornado room reference, Content for the bookshelves with phone books, Shadow7D for several and thanks to others.

Lee, and others who imply the same, there's multiple home invasions every single day, all across America. We hear on the net, in magazines, on radio, nightly news continually about people being victimized & brutalized right there at home in our major cities. It's a very real & present problem, far from rare. As mentioned, just thumbing through American Rifleman 'Armed Citizen' gives a reasonable picture, and that's only the possibly fortunate law abiding citizens who were armed. To think otherwise is downright dangerous.

I don't care to give my credentials. To answer directly, I'm fully able to attend to the business of intruders due to prior experience & training. Yes, I've also had EMT training. I have experienced life & death situations under fire and survived.

No, I didn't 'airily blow in here and demand' anything, and my questions do not reflect a lack of understanding or that mindset. The questions are directly based on the many threads on this same website where people are truly fearful that their shooting will injure family or neighbors. I started the thread to address other alternatives, for those that cannot train every week and shoot 500-1000 rounds every weekend. It's also for those who don't have experience, just a working stiff trying to raise & protect a family, who wants a gun for home defense.

"Well, some of us have tried to help. It seems not to have worked to your satisfaction, and now you roll out all huffy over it. Well bubba, if you're so tactically efficient, experienced and capable already- then what the hell do you need answers from us for?"

Nope, you missed it again! In my second response I explained that it wasn't for me. Also tried to make it more obvious that I was addressing the making of a safer environment for someone defending the home with a gun. Not talking about HOW to defend, or about the need for training, or about experience or lack of experience, but about how to make a physically safer environment for defense, how to physically prevent stray fire from killing innocents. That was rarely answered, and it's uncalled for insults that I found offensive.

The 'other forums' for pros certainly have their purpose and I'm glad they're on the net for us. But, I'm not addressing issues relevant to professionals. I'm talking about Joe average who isn't an ex [pick 1, 2, 3] LEO, Seal, Marine, Airborne, SWAT Team, FBI sniper etc. Simply a guy with a family to protect, nothing more, nobody special.

"But what this is NOT, is kindergarten."

Another one. I cannot see that as a valid thought, because anybody at all can post in these forums from 'I just bought my first gun, where do I put the little bullet things at?' to 'Can somebody help me learn to shoot a gun?'. I've read both here!

Sure, I got your veiled warning, as if I did something wrong. Fact remains that only a few posts directly addressed the topic: hardening a site to control stray fire. Now folks will have an attitude against me because I asked some questions intending to help others, and I was the one insulted? Go figure.

Again, sorry I brought up the subject in the first place!

 

[lobo9er]

i have shot ply wood though doesn't stop bullets would take away alot of bullet energy i would think.

 

[Avenger29]

I started the thread to address other alternatives, for those that cannot train every week and shoot 500-1000 rounds every weekend

Very few people can do that.

However, most of us, with a reasonable amount of time and ammunition spent, can practice to the point of proficiency.

There's dry fire, practicing reloads, seeking cover, positions, airsoft, .22LR, etc. for the cheap/free side of things. Practicing inserting a magazine into a pistol that's in slidelock and releasing the slide to get it back running is something that does not cost ammunition- it's a repetitive motion that is ingrained through repeated practice. The little stuff adds up to big benefits.

I've been shooting since I was 5, and not "thousands of rounds" per weekend. Mainly started out with a BB gun and transitioned to .22LR and shotguns later. I shot maybe 100-200 rounds a weekend of .22LR, and was lucky to get that in because Mom had to buy my .22 ammo at the store and would often forget.


Take a basic handgun course. Drill with your pistol, dryfire it with snapcaps, practice your reloads, shoot a lot of .22LR to ingrain the basic techniques you learned in class. Meanwhile, save up some bulk centerfire ammunition and a class fee and when you've got the resources, sign up for and take a more advanced class. Do the same for your rifle and shotgun if you run one.

 

[Ohio Gun Guy]

You would need to build a reinforced masonry building, like how schools are built in the Mid-West. Even then with certain calibers you only stop the 1st round. Anything short of concrete is going to requre many many layers. More than 2 -3 if not 10+. Also the weight of the retrofit your thinking of will likely exceed the design load of the floor joists, by a lot.

 

[Cosmoline]

but about how to make a physically safer environment for defense, how to physically prevent stray fire from killing innocents. That was rarely answered,

It was answered many times, and has been in past threads. The answer is it's impractical and you're better off putting your resources into firearm and bullet selection. There is NO SAFE WAY to discharge live rounds in a house full of people. NONE. It is INHERENTLY UNSAFE. That's why you only do it if your life depends on it. A bullet that can kill can penetrate interior walls, and unless you bulk your house up with steel walls, stone or earthworks that's not going to change. Your best bet is to choose the combination of bullet, firearm and training which will minimize the number of rounds you have to send out and maximize their accuracy.

A gunfight in the house is going to be a disaster no matter what. The BEST case is a dead or dying intruder on your carpet, and you want to talk about a mess? It's shocking how much blood comes out of a person.

 

[conw]

Next thread: tactical carpet cleaning!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CJYFRrO3_1Y

 

[Jeff White]

Lee, and others who imply the same, there's multiple home invasions every single day, all across America. We hear on the net, in magazines, on radio, nightly news continually about people being victimized & brutalized right there at home in our major cities.

You got something more then a gut feeling based on anecdotal evidence? If so post it, if not, stop the unreal, fear mongering posts.

Home invasion is a serious crime, and it has very serious legal consequences, as well it should. Because of that it is fortunately pretty much limited to drug dealers ripping each other off, personal grudges especially over romantic entanglements, victims who keep large amounts of cash or other valuables in their home and let that become common knowledge and people who are in certain occupations that make them a kidnap risk i.e. the bank branch manager who has alarm codes and vault combinations, people in the jewelry business. Most of the people you hear about being victimized in their homes in our major cities are either involved in the drug trade, or are unfortunate enough to live with someone who is. Do you think the police are going to publically announce that it was rival gangs? In most cases they aren't.

How did I get my insights, 22 years as a police officer.

Moderator hat on: Before you post here again, read all the information in this sticky: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=464413 Pay particular attention to to the part titled; Reality in Strategies and Tactics.

I don't care to give my credentials. To answer directly, I'm fully able to attend to the business of intruders due to prior experience & training. Yes, I've also had EMT training. I have experienced life & death situations under fire and survived.

People who claim special experience or knowledge under anonymous screen names may be required to verify that experience to the satisfaction of the staff. Where did you learn that one inch plywood was equivalent to armor plate? Inquiring minds want to know.....

Like I said in my earlier post, if you are in a gunfight in your home, you've already failed.

 

[Shadow 7D]

Jeff, Now I KNOW that 1 1/4 inch ply is bullet proof. My dad worked nights and when my mom divorced him, he took up wood working as a hobby, and generally maintained a reverse schedule, he redid he entire kitchen in 1 1/4 A/C subfloor ply. He called it his bullet proof kitchen. He told me he figured it would at least bounce a .22

After he died and my step mom sold the house, the people who bought (three times removed) ended up having to tear down the house, but when they invited me in, I got asked do you recognize anything. The wife's father is one of the larger contractors in the area and he built the new house. She told me that when her dad walked into the kitchen he was in awe, think how nice laminated stocks look, it was like that in the kitchen. It still looked awesome in the new house.

So to extrapolate that, if a laminated stock is bullet proof then this plywood should work.

 

[hso]

I've done penetration tests on plywood and 3 sheets won't stop 9mm. I didn't try .22, but I did use 9mm on plywood in my penetration testing and 3 sheets won't stop 9mm fmj or jhp.

Low angle deflections will occur (bounce), but that just puts the bullet off it's original path and doesn't stop it.

With all respect to your father's memory, unless he tested his cabinetry against live ammunition I wouldn't assume he was correct.

 

[Fred Fuller]

Are you the same Spirit 1 who wrote:

In all the many, many threads I've read on a lot of firearms forums I've yet to hear this topic directly addressed: Preparing the home for intruder's attacks.

There's discussions of best type of weapons, calibers, cartridge or shell type, projectiles & various custom tactical mods. Lots about [ha ha] birdshot instead of 00, small caliber instead of .44 magnum, hollow points compared to FMJ's, but near nothing about preparation of environment.

Mr. Apartment Dweller is reduced to using rubber bullets or bean bag rounds for fear of penetrating sheetrock & wounding innocents or family members. Yeah, I exaggerate, but that fearful thinking is real valid.

What about nailing up several sheets of 1" plywood [even double thickness] in areas where loved ones are usually sleeping or at dividing walls? It's expensive in greater thicknesses, but the alternatives are pretty severe. Yes, it would do some damage to rented walls, as some nail holes, but those can be easily patched when it's removed. Most apartments will give a little can of touch-up paint, and a can of spackling is cheap. Even paying a cleaning deposit is a lot cheaper than hospital bills or funerals.

Another thought is investing in some electrical mods or doing it yourself. That is a panic switch near hubby's bed that sets off some strategically placed floodlights indoors, hooked together on wall-exterior fastened Romex. Shocks/disorients intruders and gives a clear sight picture.

Also a VERY LOUD horn hooked to that panic switch that sounds for several seconds, to again disorient intruders. Micro-processor timer could shut it off after a few seconds, & even fire another one off after that. Second horn is located somewhere else. We tend to look in the direction of noises.

I'm sure others have more ideas on how to prepare your home to make it safer & more defensible in event of needing to use deadly force to defend your family.

...in the original post in this thread?

And yet the several threads from the past you have been directed to which discuss various aspects of preparing the environment are not relevant...

And you actually suggest that you believe a layer of plywood or two (or even three) is enough cover to protect family members from your own outgoing fire?

Do you really think that intentionally keeping family members downrange from your own vantage point as you stand off a home invasion is a viable home defense plan? Do you honestly believe that is preferable to either gathering your family behind you and your gun in the event a home invasion happens, or moving you and your gun to a place in the home dictated by its architecture from whence you can better protect them, while keeping them under cover behind you?

Really?

And you profess to be worried about what someone else needs to do in their home, to protect their family?

Really?

Are you sure you aren't trolling here?

lpl

 

[markb]

if you are in a gunfight in your home, you've already failed.

Enough said.

 

[BullfrogKen]

Do you have any earthly idea where or how I live, what I do, what I've done and what my skill levels are, or my defensive capabilities in hardware?

................

I don't care to give my credentials.

You don't need to tell me anything personal about yourself. You don't need to supply any credentials. They're not necessary for me. I'm able to discern enough about what they are from your perception of how the fight will look and your understanding of the best way to win it.


This is The High Road, so I'll say it nicely - Thanks, but no thanks.